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How to speed up obedience to commands?


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Cerb was two in October and is a smart, sweet dog. No major issues, really, but one semi-issue bugs me a bit and was remarked upon last night by DW; Sometimes, if he's interested in other stuff, he'll take his own sweet time obeying a command. Truthfully, he resembles our twelve year old daughter sometimes. Tell her to set the table when she's deeply involved in a book and you get "wait a minute" or some barely sub-audible grumbling followed by a less than speedy compliance. The work gets done, but not on my schedule.

 

I'm completely sure I've made a mistake somewhere in BOTH their training :rolleyes: Any suggestions on speeding Cerb up? He hops to it like a happy little soldier when I have treats, but if there's a distraction, like last night when the cat kibble got spilled, well...not so much.

The problem isn't compliance, he rarely disobeys a direct command, the problem is the speed at which stuff gets done.

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Are you talking about in a formal obedience type class?? Or just around the house, for example if you want him to come to you and he just blows you off?? Could you please give an example??

 

Not formal obedience, by any means. I just would rather not have to elevate a command to "Get your hairy, black and white A$$ over here right now!" in the presence of some distraction like cat kibble on the floor.

This is really a small issue in my mind, and I think there is a fine line between obedience and mindless, slavish adherance to commands (the latter doesn't appeal to me). I'm one of THOSE people who believe a dog can be "too obediant".

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Offer time on the phone with the bff's as a reward or...wait, that was the daughter! :)

 

If it is formal ob make sure your voice and bodylanguage shows intend and focus. Work with higher value rewards. Things along those lines is what I would try. Also no reward for just anything but maybe focus on high effort and less perfection for a bit. Once the intensity comes up you can shape perfection more.

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Practice with distractions. And/Or use the distraction as a reward. Work on leash at first.

 

Put a few bits of kibble on the floor. Have Cerb on his leash, several feet away. Get on the other side of him, opposite the kibble. Tell him, "Come!" or whatever your cue word is. If he pays no attention, tug him towards you with the leash. I don't mean snap the leash or yank him, I mean steady pressure, just enough to get his attention back to you and get him to you. You may need to set this up so he's pretty far away from whatever distraction you're tempting him with.

 

When he gets to you, reinforce. A high value bit of food, or a game of tug, (Gibbs LOVES a good game of tug) or something he really, really likes. My dear Buzz loved to greet strangers. He'd refuse food or a ball for a chance to go say hi to somebody new. I was able to use this as a reward for good manners from him, and it worked like a charm.

 

Repeat, repeat, repeat. Gradually move closer to the cat kibble or bit of cheese or whathaveyou. You haven't taught Cerb to come to you No Matter What Else Is Happening. That's what you're working on here.

 

Repeat this technique everywhere. At the park, in the front yard, in the parking lot at the store. Start far away from the 'set up', work with him on leash. When he's reliably moving briskly towards you on leash, start over off leash. Lower your expectations when you start over. Have him far away from the lure, you stay close to him, and cue. Reinforce with a very high value reward.

 

Especially with a recall/come to me cue, I'd want this rock solid. And I reinforce in some fashion every single time my dog comes to me. In a quiet, boring, familiar environment, that means a pat on the head or neck skritch. In a brand new, noisy, busy place that means dried lamb lung, liver sausage, tug or both.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth

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I'm completely sure I've made a mistake somewhere in BOTH their training :rolleyes:

 

Yes you have - and as the mother of 4 daughters I can identify with that.

 

You have to start off with reasonable expectation of success (near 100%) - ie don't call your dog when it has its nose in a pile of cat kibble. You'll lose. Don't set him (or yourself) up for failure. In that case I would have said nothing and removed him.

 

Start with huge rewards for speedy compliance where there are no distractions and work from there. Your aim should be for your dog to want to do what you say because it is rewarding, not because there are unpleasant consequences if it doesn't.

 

That doesn't mean that you always have to reward forever as that will reduce the value of the reward and his response is likely to deteriorate. An occasional bonus should be enough to keep the response topped up.

 

I think there is a fine line between obedience and mindless, slavish adherance to commands (the latter doesn't appeal to me). I'm one of THOSE people who believe a dog can be "too obediant".

 

Me too - I like a dog with a mind of its own, not a robot that is scared to put a foot wrong. There are very few things in normal life that require an unquestioning response - everything else is open to negotiation for me, and I do do some competitive obedience if there is a gap in the agility calendar.

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Environmental reinforcers? Threaten to throw him in Love Canal? Bop him with a three eyed fish?

Only if he likes to swim or play with fish;) Environmental rewards means, (to me at least) an activity, rather than a food treat/praise/petting.

 

Tug is an activity. Going outside is an activity. My example of Buzz getting to meet new friends is an activity. The trick is it's the dog's choice as to what is a reward/reinforcement.

 

For example, Gibbs is a bit shy, so going to meet a stranger is far from reinforcing for him. Can't use that to motivate him. However, tug/soccer in the back yard/frisbee are all things he really really likes. So we use those.

 

What does Cerb like to do, other than snuffle up kitty kibble? How can you use that as a high value reinforcement?

 

Ruth

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Practice with distractions. And/Or use the distraction as a reward. Work on leash at first.

 

Put a few bits of kibble on the floor. Have Cerb on his leash, several feet away. Get on the other side of him, opposite the kibble. Tell him, "Come!" or whatever your cue word is. If he pays no attention, tug him towards you with the leash. I don't mean snap the leash or yank him, I mean steady pressure, just enough to get his attention back to you and get him to you. You may need to set this up so he's pretty far away from whatever distraction you're tempting him with.

Good luck!

 

Ruth

 

I find a leash unnecessary for that. In fact most of my training is off leash.

The key is initially to have the dog wait far enough away from the object of interest that the dog will not go for it. Of course that assumes that the dog has already learned how to wait. If it hasn't I'd teach that first. Attention on me is the dog's choice and is rewarded.

 

To start with I would click for a glance at me and reward with something better.

Once the dog knows to check in with me, move forward a little and repeat. When within easy reach and the dog is still checking in, introduce a Leave cue. Huge reward.

 

All the dog's own choice and no need to restrain it artificially.

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Practice with distractions. And/Or use the distraction as a reward. Work on leash at first.

 

Put a few bits of kibble on the floor. Have Cerb on his leash, several feet away. Get on the other side of him, opposite the kibble. Tell him, "Come!" or whatever your cue word is. If he pays no attention, tug him towards you with the leash. I don't mean snap the leash or yank him, I mean steady pressure, just enough to get his attention back to you and get him to you. You may need to set this up so he's pretty far away from whatever distraction you're tempting him with.

 

When he gets to you, reinforce. A high value bit of food, or a game of tug, (Gibbs LOVES a good game of tug) or something he really, really likes. My dear Buzz loved to greet strangers. He'd refuse food or a ball for a chance to go say hi to somebody new. I was able to use this as a reward for good manners from him, and it worked like a charm.

 

Repeat, repeat, repeat. Gradually move closer to the cat kibble or bit of cheese or whathaveyou. You haven't taught Cerb to come to you No Matter What Else Is Happening. That's what you're working on here.

 

Repeat this technique everywhere. At the park, in the front yard, in the parking lot at the store. Start far away from the 'set up', work with him on leash. When he's reliably moving briskly towards you on leash, start over off leash. Lower your expectations when you start over. Have him far away from the lure, you stay close to him, and cue. Reinforce with a very high value reward.

 

Especially with a recall/come to me cue, I'd want this rock solid. And I reinforce in some fashion every single time my dog comes to me. In a quiet, boring, familiar environment, that means a pat on the head or neck skritch. In a brand new, noisy, busy place that means dried lamb lung, liver sausage, tug or both.

 

Good luck!

 

Ruth

 

The problem is, when we're in "formal training mode" Cerb is a gem. I can throw caviar like treats on the ground and tell him to "leave it" and he will. He sits patiently and drools like pavlov while I fill his bowl. He'll balance said treats on his nose until I realease him to eat. The issue is when he is out of that mode and in a chance situation that I have to respond to. I do think that one of the keys is to have it instantly become a "formal" training situation. I can't just casually ask him to do something I want him to do right now.

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Yes you have - and as the mother of 4 daughters I can identify with that.

 

You have to start off with reasonable expectation of success (near 100%) - ie don't call your dog when it has its nose in a pile of cat kibble. You'll lose. Don't set him (or yourself) up for failure. In that case I would have said nothing and removed him.

 

Start with huge rewards for speedy compliance where there are no distractions and work from there. Your aim should be for your dog to want to do what you say because it is rewarding, not because there are unpleasant consequences if it doesn't.

 

That doesn't mean that you always have to reward forever as that will reduce the value of the reward and his response is likely to deteriorate. An occasional bonus should be enough to keep the response topped up.

 

 

 

Me too - I like a dog with a mind of its own, not a robot that is scared to put a foot wrong. There are very few things in normal life that require an unquestioning response - everything else is open to negotiation for me, and I do do some competitive obedience if there is a gap in the agility calendar.

 

I think you're completely correct. I've always tried to not set Cerb up for failure. As I indicated in a post above, another issue might be my delivery of the command. I need to make it a command rather than a "suggestion". I need a little training myself.

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Not getting into anything formal here....but if my dog has a "blonde moment", like at home or out pottying or whatever...I usually do something goofy, like sneek up and give me a little pinch on the flank or poke...followed up with happy praise "what are ya doing ya goofball!!!" they are usually like "HOLY crap you came outta know where!!!"

 

I have obedience commands that they know are an absolute no questions asked COME, WITH ME, and STAY that we practice in all situations and are "non-negotiable" because they are for safety and they are off leash most of the time...if they don't listen to those they know the consequences..

 

But if there just being "lazy" and it's not to big of a deal...I just tease em a little ;) They usually don't make that mistake very often!!!

 

I think the best thing you can do for your dogs is make your expecations as clear and consistent as possible :)

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The problem is, when we're in "formal training mode" Cerb is a gem. SNIP I can't just casually ask him to do something I want him to do right now.

 

AhHa! Every moment is a training moment, whether you're in formal mode or not. Cerb (any dog) really, is Always Being Trained. Just as any human is Always Being Trained.

 

As you said in your reply to mum24dogs, you might need some re-training as well. Start varying your tone of voice, location, what you're wearing, time of day, etc, etc. Seriously, dogs are incredibly context specific. Cerb only pays attention in certain places/times, etc because that's what you've taught him to do.

 

I suggested using a leash because it might be easier if you have to work with Cerb in close quarters. If you can take him somewhere that the Tasty Distraction can be far enough away that he still pays attention to you, then that's great. Be aware that every time you cue him and he doesn't pay attention, you're putting deposits into the "I Don't Hafta" account. Fading the use of a leash is pretty easy.

 

Set him up to succeed easily at first, and insist that he succeed. If he can't you're making it too distracting and you need to back up a bit. Gradually increase the difficulty. You'll get there.

 

Ruth

 

Good luck with it all

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Environmental reinforcers? Threaten to throw him in Love Canal? Bop him with a three eyed fish?

 

Unless he loves being throw in the Love Canal and spends a goodly amount of time trying to be bopped with a three eyed fish, then no.

 

Example. Put him on leash and take him to an area that's distracting. Let him check it out and be a dog. After he's had a chance to do that, call his name, and stand and wait. When he looks toward you, you could use food to reward, but then immediately release him back to what he was doing. So the bigger reward was being sent back to do his thing.

 

As you practice this, his response to the cues should become much faster because the value of doing what he wants will be transferred to them. Of course, this takes some repetition.

 

The "environmental reinforcer" is permission to do what he wants - sniff, be a dog, swim in the Love Canal, or whatever he wants.

 

After you have practiced this to a good extent in "training mode", you can start to use it in real situations.

 

The nice thing about it is that the "distractions" become opportunities to build strength into the responses and behaviors that you wish to train.

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This is in interesting idea...but what happens when he badly wants to sniff or investigate something that isn't safe...

 

First you have no authority at this point to tell him to leave it alone, and even if you did get him to come quickly to you because you've built it into the dog that he GETS to go back and sniff or do whatever he wants....the dog will not get to do that with this seemingly un-safe thing, so the chain or reward is broken..

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This is in interesting idea...but what happens when he badly wants to sniff or investigate something that isn't safe...

 

First you have no authority at this point to tell him to leave it alone, and even if you did get him to come quickly to you because you've built it into the dog that he GETS to go back and sniff or do whatever he wants....the dog will not get to do that with this seemingly un-safe thing, so the chain or reward is broken..

It's not really a reward chain that you're trying to build, it's a habitualized behavior. Cerb sits all the time for me and rarely gets treated for it. I think you want your dog to do something because....well....that's what you do when your master says a command. You reward them until it becomes habitualized, then intermittently from then on.

You give them their "environmental" rewards where it's safe and hope the habit carries over to when it's not.

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This is in interesting idea...but what happens when he badly wants to sniff or investigate something that isn't safe...

 

You don't release the dog to investigate an area that is unsafe.

 

You can always go work someplace else if you want to use environmental rewards. Or you can use environmental rewards that are safe (such as release to a stuffed Kong or hidden treats, etc)

 

First you have no authority at this point to tell him to leave it alone,

 

Sure you do. Keeping the dog safe is always a higher priority than any training exercise.

 

Regardless of what I've released or cued my dog to do, if I realize that it is unsafe, I will absolutely call the dog off.

 

and even if you did get him to come quickly to you because you've built it into the dog that he GETS to go back and sniff or do whatever he wants....the dog will not get to do that with this seemingly un-safe thing, so the chain or reward is broken..

 

Tone of voice works very nicely in emergency situations to convey to the dog that something is out of the ordinary.

 

What you are missing here is that the dog is being released to sniff, investigate, etc. The dog is not breaking off and doing it at random. If that is happening, the trainer is probably moving too fast, or the dog does not really understand the structure yet.

 

It may seem backwards, but in practice, release to things that the dog actually wants (opportunity to sniff, look around, run, play, swim, just be a dog, etc.) can build a super solid and fast response to a recall.

 

The key is to use release to what the dog wants as a reinforcer for that fast recall.

 

I have actually stopped all other recall training in favor of using environmental rewards to build response to the recall cue (both in training situations and everyday life). Same with attention and focus. It works. It takes the conflict out of training. I'd never go back to worrying about "distractions". Instead, I let those "distractions" do the work to build the responses that I want, including a good recall and response to cues in various and sundry situations.

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You give them their "environmental" rewards where it's safe and hope the habit carries over to when it's not.

 

Correct.

 

But it's more than hope. You work it until you are confident that not only has a habit been formed, but the dog truly has learned what is desired.

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Cerb "You give them their "environmental" rewards where it's safe and hope the habit carries over to when it's not" Sorry, this isn't good enough for me...I do ALOT of off leash walking in populated parks with huge distractions and I'm not about to let my pups think it's ok to make choices revolving around what they want to do. My dogs safety is the ultimate priority and I train in a way where I know with a %100 certainty they are going to listen, and they've been trained to know when something is asked they need to listen. That's not not to say I don't release them to go sniff/play, etc. But I don't understand a training method that would allow the dog to think it's alright to ignore there handler...

 

Root Beer said that you should let the dog sniff and do whatever it wants and when it CHOOSES to look at you, reward and release it back to do what it wants...

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My dogs safety is the ultimate priority

 

My priority is the same.

 

and I train in a way where I know with a %100 certainty they are going to listen,

 

I do, as well. They are listening just as much when they release on a release as they do when they recall on a recall.

 

Do you really never allow your dogs the opportunity to relax, play, and just be dogs? I find that very hard to believe. Obviously, you don't do that in the middle of a training session B) , but there are most certainly times when you do.

 

Use of environmental rewards is not simply letting the dog run amok doing whatever, whenever. It is training, just like any other training. The only difference is the actual reinforcer that is being used to convey that the dog has done what is desired.

 

But I don't understand a training method that would allow the dog to think it's alright to ignore there handler...

 

Then you clearly do not understand the training method that I am describing because there is no part of it that consists of "ignore the handler".

 

Root Beer said that you should let the dog sniff and do whatever it wants and when it CHOOSES to look at you, reward and release it back to do what it wants...

 

Yes, after you have released the dog to do so.

 

You have given the dog permission to sniff, and do whatever (of course, in a place where it is safe to give the dog permission to do so). By enjoying some time to sniff, play, hang out, etc., the dog is actually doing exactly what you have told him or her to do.

 

Thus, it is an environmental reinforcer. But it is not the dog "ignoring" the handler. Permission has been given for some time "at ease", if you will.

 

I realize you haven't used this particular way of training. All I can tell you is I have been extremely happy with my dog's response to cues through learning with this approach. For some people it is something that has to be done to be understood.

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This is what you originally wrote for Cerb to do...

 

"Example. Put him on leash and take him to an area that's distracting. Let him check it out and be a dog. After he's had a chance to do that, call his name, and stand and wait. When he looks toward you, you could use food to reward, but then immediately release him back to what he was doing. So the bigger reward was being sent back to do his thing."

 

So to teach the recall using environmental distractions you take the dog on leash to what it wants to sniff or do...let him do it, call his name(i'm assuming probably more tha once if it's a REALLY appealing thing)...and WAIT for the dog to look at you. This is coming directly from what you said above...you're not waiting for the dog to respond to you when you RELEASE the dog.

 

I understand the concept of allowing what the dog desires to look at or do to BE the reward for coming...when training a young dog for stock I call him off repeatedly and then we go BACK to work, so he doesn't think that coming to me ends his fun....BUT the difference is that when I do call him, they better come immediatly. I'm not going to wait until they are done sniffing or doing whatever they want to do and take there sweet time deciding to listen, that's a dangerous idea for a dog to get in his head in my opinion.....for safety reasons.

 

And in my previous post I did say I absolutely let my dogs "be dogs" and sniff/play, etc upon a release command(I often well recall them, reward and release again to play so they know coming is not the end of a fun activity), but when training ESPECIALLY for a recall I would never let my dog think it's ok to choose to do something "self gratifying" and listen when they are done.

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This is what you originally wrote for Cerb to do...

 

"Example. Put him on leash and take him to an area that's distracting. Let him check it out and be a dog. After he's had a chance to do that, call his name, and stand and wait. When he looks toward you, you could use food to reward, but then immediately release him back to what he was doing. So the bigger reward was being sent back to do his thing."

 

Yes, you release the dog after he responds correctly to the recall cue as part of the reinforcer.

 

So to teach the recall using environmental distractions you take the dog on leash to what it wants to sniff or do...let him do it

 

Yes. When first starting to train this, let him check out the environment a bit before beginning. Let him acclimate to his surroundings a little. When he knows the structure one way to up the criteria is to drop this step, but at the beginning, I absolutely give the dog a chance to see, hear, and smell where he is at first.

 

The dog is on leash, the area should be safe. And certainly - although I did not say this directly - you should release the dog to check things out.

 

call his name(i'm assuming probably more tha once if it's a REALLY appealing thing)...

 

Nope. One time. And I would most likely start in an area that is not so appealing that the dog is going to be terribly engrossed. So, an open grassy area would be a better place to start than an area littered with horse manure.

 

I would never start this with the criteria too high for the dog to succeed. Those kinds of challenges (calling off horse manure) would come later. And, of course, releasing to horse manure would never be an environmental reinforcer that I would choose to use since I don't want the dog eating the stuff. And yet, use of environmental reinforcers could, indeed, cultivate that good of a recall.

 

and WAIT for the dog to look at you. This is coming directly from what you said above...you're not waiting for the dog to respond to you when you RELEASE the dog.

 

Yes. I have released the dog. He is free to "be a dog" until he is good and ready to work with me again. A radical idea, I know. But when I give that particular release (which is different from my working release that I would use when releasing from a start line, for instance), I am not lying to the dog. I mean it. The dog has permission to enjoy the environmental reinforcer to his hearts content. When he's done we start working again. (If there were some highly unusual reason to break off training and call the dog immediately, of course I would do that, but that would be out of the ordinary).

 

That is actually the reason I start this on leash. The dog has a 12 foot area in a circle around me to explore. I can stand still and the dog will have that small area explored pretty quickly, even at first. The more one does this, the shorter that period becomes, and I usually progress to off leash very quickly. I don't do that until I know the dog isn't going to take too long enjoying the environmental reinforcer.

 

I understand the concept of allowing what the dog desires to look at or do to BE the reward for coming...when training a young dog for stock I call him off repeatedly and then we go BACK to work, so he doesn't think that coming to me ends his fun....BUT the difference is that when I do call him, they better come immediatly.

 

That is why a recall is not used in the midst of the environmental reinforcer. Yes, if you call the dog, the dog should come, but that is not going to maximize the potential value of the reinforcer. Just to be clear - I am not talking about sheep here. You brought that up, and lest anyone get squiffy, I am talking specifically about the kind of training that Lewis Moon is referring to with Cerb. I would not use a release to sheep as an environmental reinforcer for responding quickly to a recall (or other cue) because that is not something that I am going to allow my dog to enjoy on his terms for the safety of the sheep. I don't give dirt and grass the same consideration.

 

I'm not going to wait until they are done sniffing or doing whatever they want to do and take there sweet time deciding to listen, that's a dangerous idea for a dog to get in his head in my opinion.....for safety reasons.

 

You are still missing the fact that the dog is listening. The dog has been released.

 

And in my previous post I did say I absolutely let my dogs "be dogs" and sniff/play, etc upon a release command(I often well recall them, reward and release again to play so they know coming is not the end of a fun activity), but when training ESPECIALLY for a recall I would never let my dog think it's ok to choose to do something "self gratifying" and listen when they are done.

 

That's one of my favorite things about this way of training. I don't have to worry about those dreaded "self rewarding" behaviors anymore. That is an annoying concept that I am very happy to be rid of.

 

When the handler has given the dog permission to sniff/play, etc., the dog is not "self gratifying". The dog is doing what he or she has been given permission to do by the handler not by his or herself.

 

The difference is that I am using that as a reinforcer that is worth its weight in gold for the dog doing precisely what I have cued the dog to do.

 

So, let's look at this in "real time".

 

I take Dean to the park and I release him to check things out. He sniffs, he checks out the environment, and he enjoys the place a bit. To make it simple lets say he's on leash already (in reality now, he would not be unless leashes were required, but let's keep it simple). Now he's acclimated and ready to work, so we get to training. I call him, he comes. I might click/treat, or I might throw a ball, or whatever. But now I say, "go" and he has my permission to "be a dog" again.

 

Note two things that happened here:

 

1. He came when I called him.

 

2. I released him to the environment again. (Again, let me emphasize, he is on leash, this is a safe area, the only thing that might get hurt are a few blades of grass he might step on)

 

He's done now with his environmental reinforcer and he checks in with me. Now I will break focus again (because it's not a recall if he's standing there looking at me) and call his name. He comes. I reinforce again in the traditional way and then give my "go" and he has permission to "go be a dog" again.

 

As he gets better with this, I will change it up by working someplace we can work off leash. Or by working someplace he finds more compelling. Etc.

 

I've done this and what I've gotten are very good and strong responses to the cues that we've trained.

 

I realize that you consider it dangerous, but that hasn't been my experience. It was far more dangerous when I trained in the more traditional way of trying to control everything at all times. Through use of environmental reinforcers, I have gotten better results. Faster recalls, better focus, and more reliable responses in new and different situations.

 

My dogs play off leash on the beach and I trust them. They walk in the woods off leash and they come when they are called. They comply at the vet with whatever they are asked to do.

 

I get the impression that you are envisioning this as something willy nilly and unreliable, but that has not been my experience at all. It has been like training gold, and it has made training more enjoyable for me and for my dogs, while producing better results.

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