Question on working sheep?

[Luke and Abbys Mom]

Ok you guys may remember me from a while back asking on how I could get Luke to balance the sheep to me.. Ok well no prob we got that figured, He is great at balancing them now, infact awesome. Now you may also remember that the sheep I have arn't dog broke sheep. They do however got it figured now to come to me when I am working Luke on them. But here is the problem...... They blow past me steady, no matter how fast I go.. well actually I found if I ran as fast as I could I could stay ahead of them lol but I am not really into running nine o everywhere.. I did get some advice from the guy I bought Luke off of on how to teach him to slow down. So yes we worked on that and he is great, as soon as I say "easy" now he slows it to a crawl and keeps it at that, but the sheep will still blow past me, so I figured I would just work on figuring out what their "safe" distance was, but no matter what distance I have tried, I slow him down and get him back and they stop, so I tell him "walk up" and he gets half a step and they blow past me again. So they are either RUNNING or standing and no matter what me and Luke try as in speed or lack of it or distance they just won't quite blowing past me. Do you guys have any suggestions to get them to quite running me over and going by me? No I have not made pets of them, they seemed wilder then Elk when I first got them so what gives???? and is there anyway I can get them to quit????? Luke is really strong eyed and has no fear what so ever, is it possible that he is just too agressive to work him on sheep???? or are these sheep just being rude???? or am I totally missing something???

 

Any suggestions would be great.. I know I told you guys I was wanting to take a clinic and you all said that was great.. I have found myself a clinic, although it is going to be a 9 hour drive and hotel bills I will be taking a clinic the last weekend of this month... VERY EXCITED about it!!!!! But any help before then would be great as I have a real safe dry pen for the sheep at night then put them out on grass during the day, we have a cyote problem and I don't want them out at night, so this is becoming a struggle for me metally. But besides this problem things are going AWESOME as far as Luke working, the sheep NEVER get away from us even though they try too STEADY.....

 

Thanks for any help, Tara and Luke of course! I would imagine the sheep would like the help too!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

One quick stupid but practical "fix" - carry grain. You'll regret this one soon, but for now you'll cut down on the cycle of frustration that is building for your dog. When they learn that you=grain they will soon have the opposite problem - they will not want to leave your feet. That's about when you will be coming back and saying, "I'm trying to learn to drive but my dog can't push my sheep away from me!" LOL.

 

You can also use grain to teach your dog that his job is to settle them at your feet, not chase them past you. If he's got that idea, at least he can try to make up for their nuttiness if possible. Gather them, take them to a pan, and put a little grain in (or really tasty hay like alfafa). Now you both just sit there and watch them eat.

 

Finally, don't walk in straight lines. Send your dog, then do stuff like right turns, figure eights, and walking through the sheep to set up multiple mini-gathers over and over. If your dog balances and covers ok, when you turn away from the sheep or walk off balance, it will give the dog something to do besides helplessly watch the sheep bolt past you.

 

That's my unexpert opinion. Just stuff that's worked for me to break sheep in the past. Now for the real pros . . .

[Luke and Abbys Mom]

Ok I have been doing a LOT of turning and figure 8's simply because it is really hard to keep in front of them so I turn and Luke just balances them back to me, but it is hard to get them from point A to point B when I am steady changing direction. but I think mabey your idea of feeding them then having us bring them to their hay or grain (would have to use grain as they get alfalfa at night) might work, then maybe they will understand dog means good not bad. I worked on useing him to settle them today just simply because it was SOOOOOOO HOT here today and they were breathing so hard in the heat and I wanted to hose them off to cool them down so he figured out what I wanted and they settles pretty darn good and stood for the hose, it almost seemed that they enjoyed it. It was however a tough desicion for Luke at first, whether to hold the sheep or chase the hose, he has a terrible addiction to any water, but.....the sheep proved to be more inprotant to him in the long run. One of the sheep has a terrible shear job and her wool is soo long still so I am going to clip her tomorrow, but before I go about getting Luke to hold the sheep is there a set word to use to tell him to do it??? today I just used..... lol sounds bad, but "come bye, away from me, come bye, lie down, away from me, easy, lie down, come bye, lie down" sounds bad I know but they settled after a LOT of try from Luke, then while I was hoseing them he just moved acordingly to keep them there but I didn't really tell him to do it... is that bad or ok?

 

Thanks a bunch for you suggestion on feeding I will start on that tomorrow! Tara

[Caroline Reichard]

I have a few questions:

 

What will these sheep do when they are out in the field with you but without your dog? Are they afraid of you? Can you move them quietly without a dog? If they don't trust you of some extent, then I don't think a beginning dog will be able to settle them at your feet.

 

Is it possible for you to watch a trained dog work them? If the trained dog is unable to work them calmly, then I doubt your beginner will be able to. You may find volunteers at your upcoming clinic that would love to try out your sheep.

 

Many people believe that a key feature of successful puppy training are quiet sheep that a beginning dog can work successfully. You might be able to borrow, buy or trade for some at your next clinic. If your dog already goes around sheep and has some sort of stop, then you would not need or want "knee-knockers" (sheep that actually run to your feet as soon as the dog moves), but sheep that will stay with you under normal training conditions can be a real help.

 

Hope this helps. I have hardly ever posted to this forum and I don't trial, but I do own sheep that I have managed to keep good to work dogs with, so I feel within my skill level on this post.

 

Caroline

[kelpiegirl]

I work with sheep who will go past the handler with any dog. Granted, it's worse with my dog as she can be pushy, but this is a matter of these sheep behaving this way. I work on longer fetches and downs, and flank from further out to give my dog (hopefully) the mental memory of staying off, and the sheep will calm down too. Sometimes it is just hard to get everyone to cooperate

Julie

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

On settling, try to get away from using a lot of commands (you'll need some at first), and just gently (so as not to rile the dog up a lot ) shhhh, when the sheep are leaving and you want him to turn them back, and "Ah-ah, [command]" if he makes the wrong choice. You can also walk around at first to help him - either get started in the right direction or to discourage a general stampede away.

 

You should eventually get to where you don't need any commands or even corrections. Settling isn't a "command" per se, it is something the dog should know to do, because nothing else is going on. That's what I mean about the dog learning his job. I do use a different command to settle the sheep away from me for putting out feeds - something like "watch" - but never when the dog is balancing to me. That's Border Collie 101.

 

Edited to say, I don't trial much, but I've found these exercises (I graze sheep a lot) invaluable when it comes to "at hand" work like turning at the post and penning. If you and your dog can settle sheep, you are 90% of the way there when you need to work the sheep around on a tricky turn (you just turn your body around the post so your dog continues to hold the sheep to you) and in penning (by that time your dog will understand off-balance settling as well, so the heads are pointed into the pen).

[Guest pax]

Hi Caroline, it is good to see you here!

 

 

 

 

Ok, you guys know what my *ahem* skill level is so take this for what it's worth...I was having trouble with Nash in Mark's training pen and he moved us out yesterday..Saturday...sunday...whenever it was... to a bigger space. Nash seemed way more comfortable and easier with a little more room in which to work.

 

Maybe the size of the area you're working is a help/hinder.

 

Also...he had me turn around and walk backward, which eliminated me falling over every time I turned away. Maybe that would help? Especially if you're carrying a bucket of grain.

[Luke and Abbys Mom]

I have a few questions:

 

What will these sheep do when they are out in the field with you but without your dog? Are they afraid of you? Can you move them quietly without a dog? If they don't trust you of some extent, then I don't think a beginning dog will be able to settle them at your feet.

 

Is it possible for you to watch a trained dog work them? If the trained dog is unable to work them calmly, then I doubt your beginner will be able to. You may find volunteers at your upcoming clinic that would love to try out your sheep.

 

Many people believe that a key feature of successful puppy training are quiet sheep that a beginning dog can work successfully. You might be able to borrow, buy or trade for some at your next clinic. If your dog already goes around sheep and has some sort of stop, then you would not need or want "knee-knockers" (sheep that actually run to your feet as soon as the dog moves), but sheep that will stay with you under normal training conditions can be a real help.

 

Hope this helps. I have hardly ever posted to this forum and I don't trial, but I do own sheep that I have managed to keep good to work dogs with, so I feel within my skill level on this post.

 

Caroline

 

When I go out without the dog I can walk up to them, they were wild like Elk when I got them, so I worked with grain and getting them to follow me in the pen and that got them so I can approach them and pet them.. but they aren't pets by any means. I can go out quietly and do stuff with them but you know they will not move for me, so maybe I should work on getting them to move for me and hone my herding skills lol with out the dog?

 

Unfortunatly, although there are a lot of people here with stock type dogs a LOT of cattle and the odd sheep farm no one uses dogs to help them, there aren't any trained dogs anywhere near by or even within 300 miles.

I will check into seeing if I can buy some at my clinic. Although I don't know how I would get them home, I have to travel a long ways just to get to this clinic and when it's over I have to continue down the road another days drive to look at some land, as far as me taking them with me to the clinic, I simply can't I have too much driving and on the road to do after the clinic and it's WAY to far to bring them home and head out again.

I can totally understand you knee-knocker comment as that how these sheep are, then after they run into me they think of stopping then take off past me whether Luke is lieing down or not. He has a great stop.

 

It for sure has helped me and I will really understand the difference when I get to this clinic and work stock that are dog broke.

 

Thanks, Tara

[Lenajo]

Back up to a fenceline - don't let your dog any closer than he needs to be for the sheep to settle down beside you. (do not stand between them and the fence or you will regret it LOL). Insist your dog settle down and let the sheep relax. Then insist he flank clean and wide to the fenceline on either side of the sheep. The wide and quieter he is, the more the sheep will settle. If they bolt you only have 180 degrees (one side) to worry about making sure he stays of and drops when the sheep are turned.

 

Progress slowly to flanking either way, then walking down the fenceline, then start adding flanks though on the fence side...until you are moving out in the open in degrees. Back up a step or two as needed. Remember the fence is your security point - move back there and get things settled down whenever you need too.

 

Take you time. Enforce what you say. Don't let the sheep get away from they dog, but don't let him chase them back after he turns them. You are teaching the sheep that if they relax the dog will treat them fairly. You are teaching the dog that he will be allowed to control the sheep, but he will not be allowed to shove them about.

 

And btw this is just a blueprint, not a substitute for real in person help. I have faith you can do it though

[Luke and Abbys Mom]

Hi Caroline, it is good to see you here!

Ok, you guys know what my *ahem* skill level is so take this for what it's worth...I was having trouble with Nash in Mark's training pen and he moved us out yesterday..Saturday...sunday...whenever it was... to a bigger space. Nash seemed way more comfortable and easier with a little more room in which to work.

 

Maybe the size of the area you're working is a help/hinder.

 

Also...he had me turn around and walk backward, which eliminated me falling over every time I turned away. Maybe that would help? Especially if you're carrying a bucket of grain.

 

I have worked in a small pen and in the wide open with no fencing. The sheep do relax some out in the open more so then in any pen so I have been out in the open for the last while. But their mellowing out there is a HUGE amount, just a bit that I notice.

 

Oh boy you know honestly I didn't actually know I could run backwards until I started working sheep!

 

Tara

[Luke and Abbys Mom]

Back up to a fenceline - don't let your dog any closer than he needs to be for the sheep to settle down beside you. (do not stand between them and the fence or you will regret it LOL). Insist your dog settle down and let the sheep relax. Then insist he flank clean and wide to the fenceline on either side of the sheep. The wide and quieter he is, the more the sheep will settle. If they bolt you only have 180 degrees (one side) to worry about making sure he stays of and drops when the sheep are turned.

 

Progress slowly to flanking either way, then walking down the fenceline, then start adding flanks though on the fence side...until you are moving out in the open in degrees. Back up a step or two as needed. Remember the fence is your security point - move back there and get things settled down whenever you need too.

 

Take you time. Enforce what you say. Don't let the sheep get away from they dog, but don't let him chase them back after he turns them. You are teaching the sheep that if they relax the dog will treat them fairly. You are teaching the dog that he will be allowed to control the sheep, but he will not be allowed to shove them about.

 

And btw this is just a blueprint, not a substitute for real in person help. I have faith you can do it though

 

Ok awesome that's the best advice I have heard yet.. I was wondering yesterday if I could use a fence line to help me do this but was un sure and didn't want to go ahead with it and teach Luke something bad! I think this will help me HUGE.

 

Thanks so much! Tara