Dog/toddler problems...rehoming a good dog?

[shatchp]

I posted this in rescue, but it may be more appropriate here.

 

I've not been on the boards for some time, but used to lurk and listen as I raised Ollie from 4 months old to the present. He is currently 6 1/2 years old. I need some advice as I consider what to do.

 

My wife and I have a 2 year old, and Ollie has growled/snapped (never any contact) at him when overstimulated, stepped on or otherwise bothered by him. It's happened maybe 7-8 times. The most recent was today, and it was different. He was hyped up over a fly buzzing around the house, and my boy pushed past him to go outside, placing his hand on the dog's head. Ollie knocked him down while growl/snapping over him. He demonstrated the restraint I've always trusted in him ...but for the first time there is evidence of contact on my son's face and my wife was terrified. My concern is that this is escalating.

 

Ollie has been reactive/aggressive with other dogs (never sheepdogs, incidentally), and we've dealt with that over time by avoiding putting him in tough situations. He's trained pretty well around our needs for him (never got great on leash, but we're mostly off leash on acreage near our home, where he's great), and gets daily exercise. But, I'm afraid this is a dog that shouldn't be in a home with small children. He's not toy or food possessive with our son, but he has on occasion pushed the envelope with what is acceptable. 99.9% of the time, awesome dog - 0.1%, scary. It's tough, because the problems are rare...but if he injures my boy, its me who has failed. We're planning another baby, and so it'll be young kids for years. I don't understand what triggers the reaction, and I don't trust him now. I think I need to look at the writing on the wall.

 

I need advice. I'm in Denver, but used to live in the Pacific NW, where there were solid rescues I would trust with a dog I truly love. If we decide to go that route (and I'm not there yet), is there anyone in Colorado who I can trust to do the due-diligence in finding the right home? I'll go anywhere in the western states to get this right.

 

Input appreciated...I'm too close to this.

 

Thanks,

 

Sam

[Gloria Atwater]

Is it possible to limit the interactions between Ollie and your boy? Could baby gates and x-pens be used to that Ollie can be kept separate from the toddler, maybe parts of the yard kept separate? Then you could limit interactions perhaps.

Though if you have more children planned, perhaps segregation would not work in the long term. I do wish you luck and I feel for you. It's a tough situation to be in.

~ Gloria

[ChantalB]

I'm sorry I know it's tough but this is why I tell everyone of you plan on having children in the future, even .0000001 percent chance you train that dog from day 1 to like children. If it doesn't work out rehome ASAP, not 6 years later.

 

Have you contacted a trainer yet to help you??

 

Have you started training him to accept increasing child presence? Control unleashed around kids? BAT training with children?? Whay kind of work have you done?

 

A child and toddler shouldn't be together like this. If the dog is high going after something why is the child allowed near the dog?

 

A two year old is too young to be around a dog like that. They can't understand their behaviour, separate them and train them both!

 

A dog is a family member too. A lifetime commitment. I understand how scary this is but why are you jumping right to rehoming? There's so much more you can do.

 

Don't read this harshly, it's just way too many dogs lose their family's because of new children when it's so preventable!

[mum24dog]

My wife and I have a 2 year old, and Ollie has growled/snapped (never any contact) at him when overstimulated, stepped on or otherwise bothered by him.

 

Why is your toddler allowed to step on and bother Ollie? It isn't the dog's fault if he complains.

 

 

He's not toy or food possessive with our son, but he has on occasion pushed the envelope with what is acceptable.

 

This bothers me. Have you been allowing your child to interfere with Ollie when he has food and/or toys?

 

 

if he injures my boy, its me who has failed.

 

Yes it would be. I can't stress strongly enough that it is totally unreasonable to assume that any dog will or should put up with mistreatment from an unpredictable small human.

 

Your dog has rights too. A toddler is too young to be trained to understand how to behave around animals but you can make a start and in the meantime keep your child away from Ollie.

[artsumo]

"A dog is a family member too. A lifetime commitment."

 

- Not when children are at risk! God I hate this attitude. Children are ALWAYS the priority PERIOD end of discussion. People can re-home responsibly and should not be made to feel guilty about it. Dogs are adaptable and can adjust.

 

"I understand how scary this is but why are you jumping right to rehoming?"

 

- The child is two and there have been 7-8 incidents! Not exactly "jumping" to rehoming.

 

"Though if you have more children planned, perhaps segregation would not work in the long term"

 

- Ya think?

 

Look Sam, there is a lot you can try to do if you wish to put in the work. All of this would have been a lot easier when your dog was a pup. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." It will be more challenging now, and you've waited after 6 to 7 incidents too many. Consult with an APDT trainer in your area and set up private lessons. Get your dog turned on to a clicker. It will help give you the best results. However, if you see no improvement, or the dog is still not reliable around children after putting in work and you still don't trust him I would not consider rehoming. I would have that dog take a permanent nap and not loose a bit of sleep over it. Good luck.

[artsumo]

Sam-

 

Based on the replys thus far I don't think these woman have any children, but their dogs are their "children".

[mum24dog]

However, if you see no improvement, or the dog is still not reliable around children after putting in work and you still don't trust him I would not consider rehoming. I would have that dog take a permanent nap and not loose a bit of sleep over it.

 

How many people on here have dogs that would not be suitable to live with children?

 

How many people find that their dogs are fine as long as they aren't forced into close proximity with them?

 

How many people actually consider and take responsibility for a situation that they may have inadvertently contributed to rather than blaming the dog or anyone else?

 

How many think that it would be better if they killed their less than perfect dog?

 

Have you ever read "Don't Shoot the Dog"?

[mum24dog]

Sam-

 

Based on the replys thus far I don't think these woman have any children, but their dogs are their "children".

 

I was trying to avoid replying in a sexist vein but after this comment I may not be able to resist.

 

Don't read anything into my user name, the mum24 refers to the number of children I have had, not the number of dogs.

 

How many do you have full time care of?

[artsumo]

Two.

[shatchp]

So, lets stay on point here... a little more background. Since I've had Ollie, he's been trained on the clicker, he's been trained to enjoy children and in fact loves kids. My son at 2 1/2 is trained not to take things from dog's mouth, hit dog or otherwise bother dog, which when it happens is inadvertant. My son can command Ollie to lay down and sit with hand motions, which he does.

 

I've read Don't Shoot the Dog, and don't intend to. I've worked Control Unleashed into my routinue and will take another look at it especially around calming. Ollie can be intense when turned "on" (which is anytime there's a ball in sight) and I've viewed his previous interactions with the kid as more vocalizations. He was not snarling and baring teeth, not biting. However, what my wife reported yesterday sounded like my dog basically put my son in check like he was a puppy in his space. Not OK. My son has red marks on his face, either from tooth or claw...nothing serious, but there nonetheless.

 

Where do you draw the line in adjusting your life around the needs of a dog? I appreciate the input...this is why I posted this.

[artsumo]

Yes. I have read Don't Shoot the Dog and numerous other books on canine behavior, ethology, and training. My Library is EXTENSIVE and I have trained numerous dogs. I wasn't blaming the dog, but the fact is this - the dog is the way he is regardless. I certainly gave Sam better advice than the lot of you who were mostly just coming down on him.

[bcnewe2]

I have always had dogs and kids. But not border collies.

Just to explain why he went after you son this time. He was over stimulated by the buzzing fly (some dogs really fixate on things like that) he turned his over stimulation onto you son. I have a feeling it'd be pushing it to say you were lucky, it really sounds like Ollie has had control of himself all along. How much is the question. An example would be, dogs at a fence watching sheep. They ignore the other dog that is pestering them but at one point they turn and sort of explode on the offending dog (or kid) it's the excitement from watching sheep not being able to work them and the touching from the other dog or kid. Just sets them off. They can and do learn to control that but IMO it is quite hard and 100% isn't easy.

 

I can't say why he's done something other times except that he is warning your child when the kid steps on him or is playing around his food. I'd be controlling those situations. Only feed him in a crate, teach the child to respect the dog at the door. Or keep Ollie away from the door when the baby is around. There will be lots of situations that need supervision but I do think it can be done. You've been doing it for over a year (once your baby is active)

 

I teach my dogs that my kids or gk are top of the pack or mine to be respected and guarded. If they even so much as lift a lip or look cross they are corrected. They even cringe a wee bit if the kid walks to close(no one would notice this but me but I know my dogs), not because they are afraid of the kid, but they do not want to elicit a reaction from me. I want them over worried about it. Keeps them thinking instead of reacting. But still with all that I don't let them do much unsupervised together. 6yrs old is ok to play outside without me watching but 2 is not. Even if it's safe for the kid outside I just never know what will happen or if the dogs will react without thinking first. They can laze around and watch tv but no running in the house with the dogs inside. again, don't know if I could do this 24/7

 

I have 4 reactive border collies. I call them reactive because I didn't have young children to raise them around but I have kids out here often. So yes they can be reactive. Nothing has happened in my 6 years as a grandmother but I will say I watch like a hawk. I'm not so sure I could watch them like I do if they lived here 24/7. Sometimes you just get busy.

 

Ollie is thinking that he needs to watch and patrol himself. He thinks it's ok for him to warn the child. You have to get across to him that it's not. 2 is a hard age. The kids are so unpredictable. More so than the dog.

 

I think you can work with this if you set boundaries. But if it's to hard, I for one would not blame you if you found the proper home for your dog.

 

Good luck and I do feel your pain!

[mum24dog]

Where do you draw the line in adjusting your life around the needs of a dog?

 

Only you can say, but from your last post I would guess that you may get through this if you keep in mind what people like Kristen are saying about how such situations can arise. You have to take the interests of all family members into account, including the dog.

 

I'm glad to hear that you are not proposing to end his life because of this. You don't make him sound like a real danger to anyone if the triggers are avoided. Plenty of dogs are rehomed to child free homes if you decide to go along that route. It's not as if he is seeking out children to attack and so far appears to have shown excellent bite inhibition.

 

Your son will learn to avoid the triggers with age and next time you will be forewarned as to what might happen and can plan preventative steps.

 

But there will be those on here who, for various reasons, have decided that enough is enough and rehomed a dog at some time, often for the dog's own good. I have done it myself, although in my case he bounced and is still here. It was a relaxing 5 weeks while he was away though and very much quieter.

[bcnewe2]

I just thought of something....

All my kids (3 ages from 21-31) the oldest was about 14 when I got my first border collie.

They will all tell you that they never got to play ball (kick ball or whatever) unless they went to someone else's house. The dogs would grab the balls or if they put the dogs inside the dogs would run around or sit there and howl driving me insane so balls were only played with the dogs.

 

Didn't kill the kids but they do still bitch or laugh about it. Depending on which kid!

 

Life with these dogs is so rewarding but if you start picking apart your life you realize they are as bad as kids when it comes to adjusting your life around them. It's a choice. I had kids young, yes it was my choice but it was made with less thought than my dogs!

 

Again...you can do this if it's what you want. But if you decide not to, don't blame yourself or your child. Find the best home you can for Ollie and go for it. I have rehomed lots of dogs, not because they couldn't get along with my children but because they couldn't get along with me or my other house dogs. Way less of a reason than you have. And I have no quilt from it what so ever. But I made sure that all the dogs I placed went to the best homes I could find.

[Eileen Stein]

Hey, artsumo, tone it down and cut out the personal attacks, please.

 

Shatchp, you sound like you have the experience and good judgment to assess the situation and make the right decision here, tough though it will be. You are on the scene, and no one else is. Yes, there are further training and management efforts you can make, but there are no 100% guarantees of success, and one instantaneous lapse could be pretty costly.

 

Ollie sounds like a dog who could be a welcome addition in many homes. Do you by any chance have a friend or relative that could take him in, either on a temporary or permanent basis? I'm sorry I don't have personal experience with any rescues where you are living now, which was your original question, but if necessary perhaps one of the ones you're familiar with in the Pacific NW would take him, if you decide it's too risky to keep him and you're not able to find a good placement for him on your own?

 

Good luck whatever you decide.

[Tommy Coyote]

I agree with Eileen on this one. Sometimes dogs and kids just don't get along. I wouldn't trust Tommy with little kids but I won't ever have kids so it doesn't really matter. I just make sure she never gets in a situation that could turn bad. Zeke was raised with kids so he does a lot better.

 

If the dog got so frustrated that it actually bit the child it could turn really bad really fast. And the poor dog would come out on the losing end of that deal. I don't think I would take that chance. I would rehome the dog.

 

It sounds like these owners have really tried to control the situation but it's getting worse. That's not a good sign.

[PSmitty]

Where do you draw the line in adjusting your life around the needs of a dog?

 

This is such a personal question, and unique to each and every situation/home/dog. Nobody here can answer that for you. Some people are willing to go to great lengths to make less than ideal situations work, some aren't willing to do so at all, or can't, for whatever reason. I personally think, based only on the scenarios you've described, that your situation is workable, but it would take a big commitment from you and your wife. Again, only you two can decide what will work for you.

 

Also, just my opinion, but I think artsumo's suggestion of euthansia is WAY beyond premature. Way. There are options available: 1) you and your wife working with a trainer for Ollie and making a 100% commitment to keeping him in your life, while keeping your son safe (training for him, too!), or 2) Finding a reputable rescue who will place him in a good home without children (unless you have friends or relatives who might take him).

[PSmitty]

Also, I have heard good things about Western BCR:

 

www.wbcrescue.org

 

ETA: here's the email address specifically for contacting them about rehoming: intake@wbcrescue.org

[gcv-border]

I think you have been presented with thoughtful advice, but did want to highlight one aspect: Both you and your wife MUST be on the same page with regard to training and management if you want to try and work with Ollie to be more tolerant of your young child. I think that if one of the owners is not as on top of the situations as the other, it won't help your dog. There must be 100% consistency.

 

I have a very easy-to-live-with BC, but he is a BC. I have worked with him a lot so he would fit comfortably in our lives, but it has been mainly me who has done all this training because I know my husband. He likes dogs, but he is not into training dogs. Despite what he sees (or not) me doing with my dog, he blissfully? continues to believe that dogs do not need much management, particularly after they are 'trained'. His attitude is "Well, he should know what to do" because he thinks that with all the training they should, well, know what to do. He is not sensitive to mood swings, hyperstimulation, different scenarios, changing environmental cues, etc. which may elicit different reactions from a trained dog.

 

So if I had children, I could see the possibility of issues developing since he does not 'control' the dog like I do. But I don't think of it as control, per se, but just an awareness of what might happen in a particular situation- and I will step in to alter what may be a negative outcome. Whereas my husband remains clueless.

 

Jovi

[olivehill]

Just want to add another voice of opposition to the guilt parade. I think it's clear you care deeply about Ollie's welfare as much as your son's and are not taking this lightly. If I were in your position I would be rehoming the dog too. It'd be one thing if it could be managed for a few years until your son is older, but with you and your wife still actively growing your family this will likely be an issue until the end of Ollie's life and being managed behind gates and in crates is not going to be any more fun for him than it is for you. Not to mention if something worse than a red mark happens, it'll be Ollie that takes the fall for it.

[Dana Nichols]

Yes, Western Border Collie Rescue, posted by Paula above, services Colorado as well as Wyoming. They'd be your best bet if you are looking to rehome the dog. You'd have to see if they'd be able to take a dog with the history you've described.

 

Dana

[artsumo]

Hey, Eileen, how exactly did I personally "attack" anyone?

[Eileen Stein]

Ordinarily, I don't believe in public back and forth about moderator warnings, as it only drags the thread even more off topic. But this is such a good illustration of the type of flaming (personal attack) which is not permitted on the Boards that I will make an exception.

 

After three persons, all evidently female, had posted responses to the OP, you posted the following:

 

Sam-

 

Based on the replys thus far I don't think these woman have any children, but their dogs are their "children".

It is permissible to strongly disagree with another person's opinion, even to the point of saying they are flat wrong, even if you make yourself look like a jerk while doing it (which is why I make no reference to your other posts in this thread). It is permissible to question another poster about his/her experience relevant to the subject matter. But when you bring in an extraneous topic (such as the sex of a poster), and imply that their posts should be disregarded because of your gratuitous speculation that they have no children and have a neurotic relationship to their dogs, you are making a personal attack. The analogous situation would be if a woman were to post, "Based on artsumo's replies, he wants to impress us with what a macho man he is by saying he'd kill his dog without a second thought." That would be equally unacceptable. Stick to your thoughts on the topic. Avoid belittling, irrelevant, personal comments about other posters.

 

If you wish to discuss this further, please write me by PM or email, not on the Boards.

[geonni banner]

I would like to agree with those who are not horrified by the idea of rehoming a dog. S**t happens. Sometimes you don't see it coming. Maybe you should have, but you can't see everything.

 

I have rehomed literally 100s of dogs. Mostly as a rescue person, but a few of my own. Mostly those dogs never looked back, whether they were 12 weeks old or 12 years old. Dogs are not people in fur. They take what comes. In most cases a thoughtful rehoming ends with the DOG HAPPIER. If that were not so, why would rescuers speak of great placements? Demonizing those who give up dogs is stupid and pointless. As long as the owner makes sure the dog is happy and in a good place, they have DONE GOOD. Everyone has different priorities. Putting your nose in the air because someone else's are different from yours is a waste of time.

 

Toddlers are clumsy. Sometimes they step on dogs. Some dogs are not cut out to deal with this. What is wrong with moving the dog to a situation where no toddlers get chomped and the dog is happy?

 

Maybe there is a work-around for this problem with this dog/kid situation with training, management, etc. Maybe there isn't. Only the owner can do the math.

[arf2184]

Don't allow dog and child near each other without very close supervision and get outside help. Talk to a behaviorist. Should this problem escalate, it will not end well for anyone.

 

Just last week a coworker's 3-year-old niece was attacked by her grandpa's German shepherd. It only lasted seconds, but the dog lost his life in the end and the little girl had to have surgery to reattach her ear as well as a lot of stitches on her face, neck, and arms. She will have quite a bit of scarring. Small children are right at eye level and can easily set off a dog who doesn't understand that the child doesn't know their rules of behavior. It only takes seconds for a dog to do quite a bit of damage to a small child.

 

You're on the right track considering your options, but separation and much closer supervision is needed immediately. The dog should never even have the opportunity to leave a mark on your child. Its not enough to be in the same room or just in the other room. You have to be RIGHT THERE able to monitor and prevent things from escalating, keeping both the child and the dog at a respectful distance and calm energy level when they're in the same room.

 

Neither of my dogs are kid-proof. Meg either gets nervous or hyped up. Bear feels that he needs to 'correct' the kids with a nip or a growl. So when kids come over, the dogs go out (either to my room or the dog pen outside). At most, interaction is limited to the kids telling the dogs to do tricks and tossing them treats. Meg will play ball outside with kids as long as I'm standing right next to them. That's it though. If I'm not RIGHT there actively controlling the situation with BOTH the dogs and the kids, they don't have access to each other.

 

Its harder when they live in the same house and you may decide that its not something you can do or want to do.

Before sending him to a rescue, I would see if any responsible friends or family members (without small children) could give your dog a good home so that if it does come to that, at least you can visit and get updates on him.