Candace Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Hello all! YIPPEE! I got my border collie, he is a beauty! He has great instincts, is about 2 1/2 and he knows..... very little, but his insticnt are AWESOME! he tried to bring them to you etc, but I need to know what you do to train him the right way in the basics of farm work for us here. He knows some basic comands, he will circle them and hold them, jsut by instinct, the gal would tell him to "get 'um", but he gets them circled then looks us, but we don't know what to tell him or how to show him'. So, my question is, are there any really good step by step books to train a BC? I want to let him do what he is born to do, but I don't want to get mad at him for me not doing it right....so, point me in the right direct please..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denice Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Candace, I wish I could tell you read this book and it all will be great. Unfortunately herding and training seem to be life long pursuits. There are several good DVD's out which are nice because you can then 'see' how it is supposed to look. I personnally enjoy Derek Scrimgeous DVD's and newest book. I would try to find a trainer or mentor in your area. I really think that is the way to go because they can see so much that you will miss and they will have immediate answers for you. Good Luck, Denice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 I suggest the following: Read the the Border Collie training books. Derek, Julie Simpson-Hill, etc Go to trials and watch. Help if possible. Go to a Border Collie trainer. One that has placed (such as won) and trained a dog to Open or Nurseery. Ask around and see if their style suits you. See how their students place. Do NOT go to an all breed trainer or ASCA trainer. I went to an all breed trainer (AKC and ASCA) and that pretty much ruined my first dog, Shiro. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 I hate to disagree with you, but my new trainer has worked with border collies, Kelpies, Aussies and ACD's. He trains them differently. THIS I agree with. A border collie is a very different dog than a German Shepard or a "regular" collie. The other breeds bounce- they aren't as intense. A "good trainer" knows the difference between one breed an another. You've got to do your research, you have to watch the handlers styles, but all in all- I think a good trainer is a good trainer. I prefer a BC trainer, but in my area, the trainers are sooooo good, you can't get a lesson out of them every week. I knew of a woman with ACD's, she trained all the dogs the same way. Nope- didn't work. ACD's are a little tougher and don't work like border collies. I think if you can find yourself an "all-around" trainer that knows all the breeds, keeps some of all of them at their homes and practices with the styles, you really don't have anything going wrong with you. It's all in the faith of you, your dog and the trainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candace Posted December 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 I do have a trainer lined up, but I am in the middle of nowhere, she is 2 hours one way from me, so I want to do something and not just sit on him, hence asking about some good books to read and such....something to start a basis on, I wil look up those names and DVDs, any advise for me is appreciated, I am not looking for field trial, though I understand what you are saying, we have about 200 head of goats and sheep, and we want him as a partner....and want to work with him some and work him correctly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 I'm so sorry- I didn't realize this was in the "Ask the expert" section. I apologize Vergil. I shouldn't have butted in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candace Posted December 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Did I put this in the wrong section? I am just looking for advise...I did find some stuff by that Derek S....Thanks for everyone's input... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 I am moving this thread to Training Discussion. The "Ask the Expert" forum is for specific training and handling questions directed to our current expert, Vergil Holland, who incidentally is the author of the book Herding Dogs: Progressive Training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lora Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hey Candace, I would ask you...what are your goals?? You sound like you have stock of your own and you want to train the dog to help you get things done. Is that correct? The really awesome thing about owning your own stock is that you can take lessons and ask questions and then go home with homework. Then as you do your homework from your lesson....you can read and watch DVD's and apply that....you'll find more questions to take back for your next lesson. I know many folks on this board drive way further than two hours to get good input on their dogs...including myself (5-7 hours one way to work with my trainers)....but every hour on the road is worth the time I get with the folks I train with. I take notes and use a mini tape recorder so I can listen to my lessons.....and remember all that is said to make the most of my time. A LOT of my lesson time is question asking from what I am seeing at home or on the trial field. If you want to trial.....then I would agree with Diane. Find a person who trains for USBCHA/ISDS style trials. Many folks start dogs the same.... be careful there as well.....but the USBCHA/ISDS person looks to train for the big field where physical ques for the dog to work correctly are useless in the long run. I have many friends that are trainers for arena style trials....and I enjoy working dogs with them...but we see things very different and have discussion about that regularly. When I look at working with a trainer....first I look at what they have done with their dogs (have they achieved with their dogs what my goals are with mine) ...do I like how they handle and train their dogs? And then I look at their students....if somebody has a bunch of students that year after year seem to run novice and never move up....then I might look a bit further to find a trainer that would help me get to where my goals are leading me. Some people don't own their own sheep so weekly lessons are important. Me, I own my own sheep...I do stuff daily, so finding a trainer who can push me to be more than what I am right now is what I have found. My personal goal is to work with my trainer of choice once a month......but as a disclosure...I have been working and training my dogs for four years so as I start my new dog...I am probably way more "experimental" and put her in situations I would have never dreamed of putting my first dogs in when I started. IMHO you have embarked upon the most rewarding yet complicated dog adventure on the planet. Since "destination" does not seem to be a word to use in sheepdog work....I am trying to enjoy the "journey"! Lora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyO Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Candace, First I would contact the person you got the dog from and ask for thier help. If they sold you the dog, they should be willing to help you with the dog. Second, I would try and find a trainer as mentioned by other people. Third you can get dvd and books at Border Collies in Action Derek Scrimgeour's Training secrets of a Hill Shepherd has alot information and Julie Simpson's book The Natural Way and Vergil Holland's book Herding Dog Progressive Training, both have information that is extremely helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoofly Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Where are you located? With 200 head of fresh, unworked sheep and goats, you might be able to get someone to come out and show you the ropes and help you in exchange for working their own dogs on undogged sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candace Posted December 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Candace, First I would contact the person you got the dog from and ask for thier help. If they sold you the dog, they should be willing to help you with the dog. Second, I would try and find a trainer as mentioned by other people. Third you can get dvd and books at Border Collies in Action Derek Scrimgeour's Training secrets of a Hill Shepherd has alot information and Julie Simpson's book The Natural Way and Vergil Holland's book Herding Dog Progressive Training, both have information that is extremely helpful. SHe sent him to me knowing how good a home I'd give him, I paid for all the costs to ship and such, but she is in the middle of a high risk pregnancy, hence the ONLY reason she let him go....she loved him dearly, but she is on Washington and I am in Kansas...she only let him go for HIS sake, which is why I am trying to find out what I need to do....He already understood we needed the sheep OFF of us at certain times and he understood he needed to move them down...HE is really proving to be awesome! I just want to make sure I do things right, I will be getting together with the trainer after the 1st of the year...but I want to be proactive in the interum.... I did order his dvd's Training Secrets of a Hill Shepherd - that is on the way I will look for that book other book you mention.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candace Posted December 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hey Candace, I would ask you...what are your goals?? You sound like you have stock of your own and you want to train the dog to help you get things done. Is that correct? The really awesome thing about owning your own stock is that you can take lessons and ask questions and then go home with homework. Then as you do your homework from your lesson....you can read and watch DVD's and apply that....you'll find more questions to take back for your next lesson. I know many folks on this board drive way further than two hours to get good input on their dogs...including myself (5-7 hours one way to work with my trainers)....but every hour on the road is worth the time I get with the folks I train with. I take notes and use a mini tape recorder so I can listen to my lessons.....and remember all that is said to make the most of my time. A LOT of my lesson time is question asking from what I am seeing at home or on the trial field. If you want to trial.....then I would agree with Diane. Find a person who trains for USBCHA/ISDS style trials. Many folks start dogs the same.... be careful there as well.....but the USBCHA/ISDS person looks to train for the big field where physical ques for the dog to work correctly are useless in the long run. I have many friends that are trainers for arena style trials....and I enjoy working dogs with them...but we see things very different and have discussion about that regularly. When I look at working with a trainer....first I look at what they have done with their dogs (have they achieved with their dogs what my goals are with mine) ...do I like how they handle and train their dogs? And then I look at their students....if somebody has a bunch of students that year after year seem to run novice and never move up....then I might look a bit further to find a trainer that would help me get to where my goals are leading me. Some people don't own their own sheep so weekly lessons are important. Me, I own my own sheep...I do stuff daily, so finding a trainer who can push me to be more than what I am right now is what I have found. My personal goal is to work with my trainer of choice once a month......but as a disclosure...I have been working and training my dogs for four years so as I start my new dog...I am probably way more "experimental" and put her in situations I would have never dreamed of putting my first dogs in when I started. IMHO you have embarked upon the most rewarding yet complicated dog adventure on the planet. Since "destination" does not seem to be a word to use in sheepdog work....I am trying to enjoy the "journey"! Lora I appreciate everyone's input, I am planning on heading to the trainer after the holiday like I stated above. lol I do not mind the drive at all.... I am excited, but nerveous, I am mainly needing him for MY/our work here on the ranch. WE are looking for a working partner, and awesome compainion....which, only having him about 36 hours now, HE is proving to be an asset already!! WE don't want to or care to trail, we have 3 teenage boys that in addition to the farm, are active in FFA, 4H and all sports (basketball, football and track), so time wise, that is really not something we are shooting for....OUr family and our farm is our first priority, which Fender (his name) is now a major part of.... So, you all have a face to a name, Meet Fender.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lora Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Candace...what a beautiful red boy you have! I must admit...I am laughing.....you said "WE don't want to or care to trail, we have 3 teenage boys that in addition to the farm, are active in FFA, 4H and all sports (basketball, football and track), so time wise, that is really not something we are shooting for....OUr family and our farm is our first priority, which Fender (his name) is now a major part of...." And all I can think is.....that is exactly how you get sucked in! You start out thinking one way.....and then the boys grow up and start to think about moving on and next thing you know your calendar is filled with clinics and trials and your friends try to wrap their brains around why any woman would miss the regionals for a high school football game!!!!! There must be a conspiracy in this somewhere!!!! Anyway, welcome! You sound like you are on a great path! Be sure to let us know how it goes...and until then...happy holidays! Lora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Strickland Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 SHe sent him to me knowing how good a home I'd give him, I paid for all the costs to ship and such, but she is in the middle of a high risk pregnancy, hence the ONLY reason she let him go....she loved him dearly, but she is on Washington and I am in Kansas...she only let him go for HIS sake, which is why I am trying to find out w Hi Candace ... where are you located in Kansas? I may be able to steer you in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candace Posted December 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hi Candace ... where are you located in Kansas? I may be able to steer you in the right direction. Pretty much in the middle of nowhere Kansas! lol About 2 hours SW of Wichita, about an hour NW Emporia, and NE of us, 3 Hours from Kansas City and 2 hours Topeka...in the FLint Hill area... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn T Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Kevin Taylor has a trial called flint hills in Kansas. He is in Burns, north east of Wichita. He used to use Jack Knox's methods, and although he hasn't run dogs lately, used to participate in our handlers finals in the early to mid 1990's every year. Kevin Taylor 3190 NE 130th St Burns, KS 66840 316-321-1005 If nothing else, he may be able to recommend somebody to you that is closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergil Holland Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hello all! YIPPEE! I got my border collie, he is a beauty! He has great instincts, is about 2 1/2 and he knows..... very little, but his insticnt are AWESOME! he tried to bring them to you etc, but I need to know what you do to train him the right way in the basics of farm work for us here. He knows some basic comands, he will circle them and hold them, jsut by instinct, the gal would tell him to "get 'um", but he gets them circled then looks us, but we don't know what to tell him or how to show him'. So, my question is, are there any really good step by step books to train a BC? I want to let him do what he is born to do, but I don't want to get mad at him for me not doing it right....so, point me in the right direct please..... There are several books out there that do this. But where you are both so green, your best chance of success is to work with a reputable trainer. Good luck - Vergil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candace Posted December 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 There are several books out there that do this. But where you are both so green, your best chance of success is to work with a reputable trainer. Good luck - Vergil I have one lady that is a trainer, and I do plan on utilizing her help, and any others, but do you know how many hours I searhed on the Internet before I even found this forum! I can't believe it's so hard to find herding dog info out there! So, if anyone wants to also recommend trainers, I am open, as I want to do this right.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martySQ Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 Hey Candace, Fellow Kansan here. Missouri has a few good trainers... and that's gonna be a drive for you. I live near Paola. I've been waiting to train my pup until I get some better more reliable manners on her. I keep reading comments about trainers needing to retrain the basics of a good recall and stay etc. I did a lot of searching also. I think i will probably take my girl back to her breeder, who also breeds sheep, to get her started. It will be an hour to hour and half drive each way, but well worth it for me. wish you luck finding someone soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted December 30, 2008 Report Share Posted December 30, 2008 We just got Julie Hill's book but haven't started it yet. SHould be interesting. N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion Urdank Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 It's very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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