FLYBALL FLYBALL FLYBALL

[hpjoe2001]

I am currently training flyball to my BC. She just turned a year old. I took her to a mock tournament she did good around 6.2ish and goes crazy over the sport. What can I do to get her to be a tier one dog........speed, BOX TURN ect? Any and all comments welcome.

 

P.s I just bought a New Springback should be in shortly:) Thank you Joe

[Dana Nichols]

Joe,

 

There are a lot of good resources out there. If you are training with a club or taking classes from them, you might see what suggestions they have especially because they can see both you & your dog in person. If you are looking for a club near you, the NAFA site has a flyball locator.

 

There is a set of DVDs that is very good and has quite a bit of information on building drive especially in the first two DVDs. They are available at www.flyballtrainingvideos.com There are some good training tips available at www.flyballdogs.com

 

Good luck! : )

[Sassy Girl]

Are there any trainers in your area or teams who offer training? They can help guide you on training, working you into the team and of course flyball is a team sport so you'll want to make some flyball friends in your area anyway....though you could compete in UFLI who offers singles and pair racing (which I love).

 

Does your dog do a swimmer's turn or just hit and pivot? You definitely want to put a swimmer's turn on her. A Swimmer's turn is a lot safer and is less stressful on your dog's joints and of course when done properly will decrease your dog's time by quite a bit. You also want to get your dog used to running with other dogs in a line up, learning to race the dogs in the other lane, learning to take passes etc.

 

You can read everything on the web, however you cannot make up for the team practice and training time you get in a team environment. The dogs learn so much and get socialized and desensitized to scenarios you could not create on your own.

 

Good luck!

[ZoZo]

I'd agree that the box turn is a Big Deal in flyball. Any dog can run fast, but a dog that can turn fast with a great swimmers turn will go far and often do better that faster dogs with crummy turns. I've also noticed that my dogs do not retain the "special knowledge" once they learn it and we do need to keep practising, I guess flyball is a life-long sport. Do find a local team to train with, they will be invaluable in getting you and your dog trained up.

 

Here's my Jinx practicing a turn http://www.ocflyball.org/Movies.html, he's getting better all the time. He has such enthusiasm.

[2 Devils]

I also agree - a swimmer's turn is important. If you can find a team to train with that will help a lot. If you can't find one close by, contact a team further away and maybe make arrangements to go to their practice. They could give you tips on training, etc... many teams are more than happy to help another get started.

[diane allen]

OK, I'm going to jump in here blind, with my full flame suit on. But I'm really curious.

 

Are you really doing honest-to-goodness full out flyball with a pup who JUST TURNED A YEAR OLD!?

 

I want to see this dog when he is 10 - still running, no joint issues, etc.

 

Sorry - for all the trouble agility folks take to be sure their dog's growth plates are closed before they start jumping even simple jumps, the jumping and turning in flyball seems, well, just too much for such a youngster.

 

But what I know about flyball would fit into the period at the end of this sentence.

 

diane

[2 Devils]

Diane,

 

I understand your concern but many flyball people are just as careful as agility people - and you have some that aren't in both sports.

 

Now on to your comment. The basics of flyball training aren't that hard on a young dog as long as things are kept low, short sessions and not daily. Many times a dog can learn the full course in just weeks but may not be able to pass and do things of that nature. Many times, you aren't doing much more than what a dog may do just running around the backyard, zooming with friends etc...

 

There is also puppy training techniques to start preparing a puppy for training later.

 

For a year old border collie - knowing the full course is not a bad thing. Of course, that also means the dogs should not be running the course 20-30 times a day at this stage.

 

HPJoe may not realize the growth plates may not be closed but then again this year old dog could actually be 18 months - depending on semantics. No I do not HPJoe or the dog.

 

And Diane - please don't make this about agility people are better than flyball people. I know many agility folks (and yes ones who finish first most times, have traveled to nationals) who start training their dogs way too early in both activities, agility being their main venue.

 

People in general don't take it easy on young dogs, not just sport people.

[Sassy Girl]

Kim - very nicely said.

[diane allen]

Kim said, "And Diane - please don't make this about agility people are better than flyball people."

 

Hopefully nobody took it that way! I certainly didn't mean it that way. I agree that there are "those" in agility who do start too young (I remember a video of a young sheltie doing 12 weave poles at SEVEN MONTHS! Ack!!). And those that do it "too much" so by age 7, their dogs are too "stove up" and worn out to continue.

 

I guess I was only surprised on this thread, short as it was when I first posted, that nobody had mentioned that. I understand that the low jumps are not a big deal - but if the dog doesn't know HOW to turn properly, and does it anyway - well, as I said, I just don't get it. And really - you don't have to explain it (unless you're really bored!). I'll never do it - I try to keep my dogs from even SEEING flyball - cuz they'd probably love it!! LOL.

 

"...'just' turned a year old" says to me....the dog is now a year old, but not 18 months. Not trying to pick nits here - just my observation on what was said.

 

Carry on you flyball nuts!

I'll stick to the nutty agility course...

 

diane

[hpjoe2001]

OK, I'm going to jump in here blind, with my full flame suit on. But I'm really curious.

 

Are you really doing honest-to-goodness full out flyball with a pup who JUST TURNED A YEAR OLD!?

 

I want to see this dog when he is 10 - still running, no joint issues, etc.

 

Sorry - for all the trouble agility folks take to be sure their dog's growth plates are closed before they start jumping even simple jumps, the jumping and turning in flyball seems, well, just too much for such a youngster.

 

But what I know about flyball would fit into the period at the end of this sentence.

 

diane

 

First off all agility and flyball people are not the same. There are both good and bad in both. To answer your question. Yes I spent $200.00 to have my dog x-rayed to see if her growth plates where closed. Agility is much harder on the dog then flyball ex.. Weave poles, multiple jumps ect....

I am not saying flyball is not. That is why I just spent 1276.00 on a springback box to ease some of the shock. So if you did not know much about flyball why respond......to be mean?

 

Now to the rest of you. I am working hard on a swimmers turn, but I dont know if I am doing it right. Is there any secrets you can share? I was also having her turn right for about 3 weeks and I took away the training aids now all she goes is left. So I just changed that also. I am on a team but where I go I have to pay so I kind of think she is not working as hard as she could be to teach my dog. So she can keep getting money out of me. Is there any way to increase speed on recalls also? or does that come with time?Last, how do I get her to stop paying attention to other dogs in the lane next to her?

[Shetlander]

So if you did not know much about flyball why respond......to be mean?

 

I don't know Flyball or Diane, but my take on her question was concern for your dog's well-being.

[Root Beer]

First off all agility and flyball people are not the same.

 

No, we're definitely not.

 

Agility is much harder on the dog then flyball ex.. Weave poles, multiple jumps ect....

 

We could debate this at length, but I would take the other position. I won't let my Agility dog within an inch of flyball because I don't want him doing the repetitive motions of flyball. Also, everyone I know who does flyball seems to have had to retire a dog due to injury - at an age that seems to me, as an Agility person, pretty young. Of course injuries happen in Agility and running a dog in Agility is not without risk, but I see flyball as much harder on the dog in the long run.

 

The variety of motions that the dog does in Agility is a great benefit. Yes, individual pieces of equipment are always the same, but courses vary significantly. The dog runs in different patterns on the course, makes different approaches, turns in both directions, and probably engages just about every muscle in the body in an Agility run.

 

Like I said, we could debate this probably indefinitely. When it comes down to it, both sports pose certain risks and a good handler in either will do all he or she can to become aware of those risks and do the best we can to preserve our dog's health and well being.

[Dana Nichols]

I am working hard on a swimmers turn, but I dont know if I am doing it right. Is there any secrets you can share? I was also having her turn right for about 3 weeks and I took away the training aids now all she goes is left. So I just changed that also. I am on a team but where I go I have to pay so I kind of think she is not working as hard as she could be to teach my dog. So she can keep getting money out of me. Is there any way to increase speed on recalls also? or does that come with time?Last, how do I get her to stop paying attention to other dogs in the lane next to her?

 

Joe,

 

Developing a solid swimmer's turn takes a very long time. Although a dog may initially have a nice turn with props, you have to leave those props in for many months to full reinforce that turn before you remove props. It sounds like you may not have realized that it generally takes quite a bit of repitition before you ever take those props out. Even once the dog is completely solid and ready for competition, we always warm up a dog with props to make sure the turn stays solid. I would think your trainer is not slowing down the process to get more training money, but is trying to make sure you & your dog have a solid foundation. It sounds like you are very willing to invest money in flyball to help your dog. The time and money you invest in training is one of the best investments you can make.

 

As for the increasing speed on recalls & ignoring the dog in the other lane, there are a lot of good exercises, including:

 

- restrained recalls (dog racing over jumps back to you & your tug)

 

- drag racing (two dogs doing restrained recalls next to each other)

 

Good luck.

[Rave]

I just love how people who've never done flyball with their dogs think they fully understand it and it's affect on the dogs. Root Beer, I'd venture to say you don't know many flyball people if all their dogs are injured, or perhaps they didn't condition their dogs well. Flyball dogs need to be better conditioned than agility dogs, as a day of flyball is more demanding physically than a day of agility. Properly trained, a swimmer's turn is not that hard on the dog's body, no more than repeated weaving would be. Most of flyball can be taught to puppies at first with no jumps, and then with low jumps as the dog ages. Box work can wait. I've known several people who've started dogs at what I consider to be too young, and their dogs are still running hard into old age.

 

HPJoe, I'd really recommend finding an experienced team to work with as others have said.

[Root Beer]

I'm not saying that I know a lot about it, but I know enough about it to know that I do not consider it worth the potential physical risks to my dogs.

 

Flyball is comprised of repetitive motion, no matter how well it is trained - and I don't have to actually run a dog in flyball to know that. Of course, overall good conditioning can help avoid injury, but that kind of repetitive motion at high speed is not a risk that I'm willing to take for a dog that I want to keep injury-free for a completely different sport. I certainly know enough about it to make that judgment for my own dogs.

 

The fact is that both sports pose certain risks and a good handler in either will do all he or she can to become aware of those risks and do the best we can to preserve our dog's health and well being.

[ZoZo]

I'm not saying that I know a lot about it, but I know enough about it to know that I do not consider it worth the potential physical risks to my dogs.

 

 

Yeah, you might want to stick to agility. Sorry to pop your bubble, but flyball is a very safe sport. I know plenty of people that are on their second and third dogs and those dogs have all lived long and pleasant lives without the pain and injuries that you seem to think are built into the sport. I don't see how ragging on flyball is needed here. The folks I know and have met are extremely concerned about the well being of their animals, if it were as dangerous as you make it out to be, those people, including myself, would not be doing it.

 

But back to the topic. A typical flyball team out here will charge for a six or eight week class (for a dog that at least a year old) and you might be able to get on a team after that. The fist class I took was a city sponsored class, mostly a waste of time as by the time a took the team class, we had to learn everything differently. The team class didn't let my dog get near the box by the eighth week, it was all foundation work. The box was slowly worked into training sessions during the next year and wasn't really a big focus until the dog had a lot of experience doing other things. As Dana said, it's very a slow process and you need a lot of practice to get everything going. My dog Zoey also needed to get get out of her puppy stage to be able to focus better around the other dogs. It all takes time.

 

Normally after a class you're just paying yearly dues, which are next to nothing and you're getting loads of free training from the team (if it's a good team) in exchange for your helping the team and contributing however you can. There's no "me" in flyball.

 

On our team, props are a big deal for training a good swimmers turn and are used at ALL times during every practice.

[Root Beer]

Sorry to pop your bubble, but flyball is a very safe sport. I know plenty of people that are on their second and third dogs and those dogs have all lived long and pleasant lives without the pain and injuries that you seem to think are built into the sport.

 

To clarify - I did not say that every dog who plays flyball ends up injured. I said that the people that I personally know who play flyball have dogs who have had injuries from flyball. That's just the fact as it stands.

 

This is not an implication that injury is "built into the sport", but an expression of the fact that risk of injury is very real. I highly doubt that the flyball folks I know would deny that their dogs have experienced injury in flyball even if they personally know others who have dogs that have not been injured.

 

I don't see how ragging on flyball is needed here.

 

I don't see how an honest statement that in my judgment the potential for injury from flyball is not something that I am going to choose for my dogs is "ragging" on anyone. If you want to play flyball, enjoy. If I don't, it's not a judgment on you.

 

If you go back to my original post in this thread, you will see that I very specifically responded to this statement:

 

Agility is much harder on the dog then flyball ex.. Weave poles, multiple jumps ect....

 

Personally, I beg to differ with that statement and that was the point of discussion that I put forth.

 

The fact that in my judgment Agility is not harder on a dog than flyball is not "ragging" on flyball.

 

Maybe this will help you see what I mean. Here's another fact: I feel that Agility is much harder on a dog than Freestyle dance. I do very little Agility with Speedy, my Freestyle dog, because I don't want to take the risk of injury to him in Agility because I want him healthy to do Freestyle.

 

Now if I'm "ragging", I'm ragging on myself since I have two Agility dogs.

 

The folks I know and have met are extremely concerned about the well being of their animals, if it were as dangerous as you make it out to be, those people, including myself, would not be doing it.

 

As dangerous as I make it out to be? The fact that I feel it would be harder on my dogs that I want to be in good condition for a different sport is "making it out to be" unacceptably dangerous for all? I think not.

 

Of course many flyball folks are concerned about the well being of their animals, as are most Agility and Freestyle people. That fact, however, does not make any of the three sports immune from injury to the dogs who take part in them.

 

That's something that anyone who participates in a dog sport ought to be very aware of.

[Rave]

I think agility can be just as hard on a dog as flyball, if not harder, especially if you have a fast dog and are a bad handler...lol. I've seen dogs wrenched around, twisting their bodies while landing from high jumps, slamming into the upside of the aframe, etc... The stress on the dog's joints and back is very real. The most repetitive motion in flyball is low jumping, jumps considerably lower than seen in agility for a BC. How many times have you seen agility people working their dogs through jumping grids repeatedly, or doing tight twisty jump exercises repeatedly? That's more stressful on the dog than eight low in-stride jumps. A proper box turn has the dog landing on all four feet, distributing the weight among all four. Again, the stress of landing from a higher agility jump on two paws, often while twisting or turning at high speed, would create a greater force per paw. Fast BCs run to the end of the teeter and slam it down - how is that an easier on a dog's body than a box turn?

 

Granted if your dog is slow and trots or lopes around the course, then yeah agility would be less stressful. I've seen dogs injured in both sports; I've seen sports dogs hurt themselves more while running through their own backyard. Don't fool yourself into thinking agility is any easier on a dog's body than flyball, it's not.

[2 Devils]

I was so hoping this would not turn into an agility vs. flyball debate.

 

If you check out the Orthodog list on Yahoogroups you will realize that more pet animals are injured than flyball or agilty dogs. You will also see more posts by agility competitors than flyball people. This could be for any number of reasons. I am not saying agility is more dangerous than flyball. I am just saying that I hear about more agility dogs with injuries than flyball but I know way more pet dogs that have been injured than those playing dogsports.

 

Dogs that are in proper shape can usually lessen the chance of injuries no matter what the dog is doing.

 

My ACD has injured herself being a dog not playing flyball. Yes she may have fully blown out her knees playing flyball but the initial injuries were not from flyball. They were from playing frisbee, hitting moving cars, running into many things (trees, walls, etc...she is a very focused dog unfortunately). I won't blame her need for TPLO on both knees on flyball since her first knee injury occurred before she started flyball.

[haleigh]

I just want to throw my agility vs. flyball opinion in really quick before my flyball comment in:

 

I've never done flyball, and Joy's my first agility dog, but my uneducated mind would tell me that flyball would be harder on a dogs joints. It seems that the hard jarring motion of the jumps would do more damage than a combination of things like jumps, teeter (even though that's not light on the shoulders...) or weaves. Then again, you have smart people who compete in flyball who put a small terrier on the same team as a bunch of borders to lower the jump height. Another point that really proves it pointless to be arguing is how most avid flyball/agility people take the time to properly condition and stretch out their dogs.

 

I'm no so sure what the point of that was, except that every sport has its risks, and none is without risk of injury. In fact, I think I've hurt myself and other people during Joy's first agility class then she's ever hurt herself in her whole life. I tripped over two jumps, a tunnel, and I punched my instructor in the face (accidentally) when I was teaching Joy the weaves and her leash got stuck.

 

For the original question:

 

I do have a friend who's a flyball competitor and I asked her about this, and she seems to agree that a solid swimmers turn is the key to success. Her cousin's ACD who did flyball was always a bit shaky with the 'sharpness' of his turns, and he was a wreck for the first few months of actual competition. That dog ended up getting hurt, but only because of improper care..etc.