Refusal to return puppy deposit

[Sue R]

For some odd reason, I was thinking there was a Cattledog Finals within the last few years that was judged by someone who is an AKC "herding" judge, but perhaps my memory fails me, as it often does!

[Debbie Meier]

this year Gary Westbrook, last year Alasdair MacRae & Steve McCall, 2012 Peter Gonnet & Gary Westbrook, 2011 Dorrance Eikamp, 2010 I believe was Robin Nuffer and Ron Enzeroth, and I believe 2009 was Herbert Holmes, not certain who he co-judged with, so no, not in the last few years

I believe in 2007 Cappy Pruett was approved to judge the USBCHA Nat'l Cattledog Finals, that was before the rule change.

[Sue R]

this year Gary Westbrook, last year Alasdair MacRae & Steve McCall, 2012 Peter Gonnet & Gary Westbrook, 2011 Dorrance Eikamp, 2010 I believe was Robin Nuffer and Ron Enzeroth, and I believe 2009 was Herbert Holmes, not certain who he co-judged with, so no, not in the last few years

 

I believe in 2007 Cappy Pruett was approved to judge the USBCHA Nat'l Cattledog Finals, that was before the rule change.

That was the one! Thanks, Deb, for clarifying.

[juliepoudrier]

Now that everyone has given every bit of information possible but the name, why not just name her and be done with it? It would be a service to other people seeking a breeder.

 

J.

[GentleLake]

^^ I've kinda been thinking the same thing (and there was enough information in Sue's post that I was able to do a search and find her), but if the OP is considering legal action, perhaps it would be better to wait until that's resolved.

 

Then, if it were me, I'd be announcing the name everywhere I could think of.

[juliepoudrier]

Yeah, I had guessed who it was too, and when I checked her site, it matched with what Sue posted, but we are people who are part of this community and so CAN figure these things out. That's not helping all the folks who post looking for breeders. They would see a working dog breeder and think it's okay....

 

As far as deposits are concerned, I wouldn't place a non-refundable deposit unless it was clearly stated in writing that if I did not get a pup from the litter, for reasons beyond my control, I would have my deposit returned. I understand the whole tire kicking thing and the need for deposits, non-refundable or otherwise, but ISTM that if the breeder ends up not having a pup for me, then the money should come back to me, period.

 

J.

[Journey]

Eh, I've never dealt with anyone that required a deposit and in turn I've never asked for one. My take is if someone's word isn't good enough then its time to move on.

[mum24dog]

All I had to do was google the list of dog names given to come up with the person's web site - not that I've ever heard of her but then I don't mix in those circles so there's no reason why I should have.

[Smalahundur]

Eh, I've never dealt with anyone that required a deposit and in turn I've never asked for one. My take is if someone's word isn't good enough then its time to move on.

That's the way it is done here. You pay for the animal when you pick it up. But off course this is a tiny rural community.

[juliepoudrier]

Karen,

Same here. I suppose some of it depends on who you're selling to, but I've neither asked for nor given a deposit either.

 

J.

[GentleLake]

Again, I agree that she should be named, and in as many locations as possible, to alert future buyers to beware.

 

The only reason I'd hesitate to do it before the issue is resolved is that it removes any possibility that she can claim anyone's slandered, libeled or in any other way defamed her, and might be able to use that against the OP to justify not returning the deposit.

 

ETA: Also, when the time comes to name names, I'd be very careful to be very matter of fact. Name her, give the facts, and refrain from making any judgement statements or to say anything that could be construed as libel (or slander if you're talking to someone rather than writing about it). Keep your emotional responses to yourself; you don't want to give her any ammunition to file any sort of counter-suit against you.

 

IOW, be very careful not to defame her in any way. As Joe Friday (I'm dating myself!) would've said, "All we want are the facts."

[The Good Shepherd]

Geee - very interesting, figured it out

[Tommy Coyote]

If found it but I've never heard of her.

 

I've never paid a deposit for a puppy. I don't think I would ever want to do that.

[bcnewe2]

I think someone already named her and the post was deleted. I guessed pretty quickly and ive only really heard of her or met her one time way back when I started. So if I could figure it out I would think most already have.

I'm sorry the op felt the need to go there in the first place. I do understand wanting to find a dog line that you love. But, there are truely some amazing lines out there that would be way easier to find and deal with breeders that are better suited to improving our breed not themselves.

[mja]

Hello Everybody,

 

As mentioned above I am waiting for my money first. After getting her outlandish em, I responded stating very clearly what the issues were and gave her 2 weeks notice to return the $600 or I would go to small claims court, she has finally changed her tune and em'd that she would send my money, not yet recieved but when check clears, I don't mind giving out her name.

I just heard yesterday from friends that trial that they know of a person who bought a pup from her, signed the breeding contract and than at a later date, the breeder told her she had to breed her dog. That person just went ahead and spayed her female. So as we all suspected it was a method to get others to raise pups and enjoy the profit without any expense or work.

[GentleLake]

So as we all suspected it was a method to get others to raise pups and enjoy the profit without any expense or work.

That's usually what breeders' contracts are all about.

 

And it's pretty lucrative, too, if you think about it. They usually get most of the puppies from the litter to sell as they see fit.

[Smalahundur]

That's usually what breeders' contracts are all about.

 

And it's pretty lucrative, too, if you think about it. They usually get most of the puppies from the litter to sell as they see fit.

Do they really? I think it is amazing that anybody would agree to such a ridiculous contract.

[GentleLake]

Well, quite often the price of the dog is reduced or even waived with a contract like that.

 

But even assuming it's waived, essentially the breeder's getting almost an entire litter. They often allow the bitch's co-owner to keep one, but I don't know that that's universal. There can be negotiation about the cost involved in raising the litter -- stud fees are usually covered by the breeder, and sometimes vet visits -- but all the work usually falls on the co-owner, along with increased feeding costs.

 

Of course, it can be a crap shoot, and if the litter's very small, the breeder may not come out so well off . . .

 

ETA: Breeders will often stipulate that there must be a certain number of live puppies from the breeding, and if there aren't that the co-owner must breed again!

[border_collie_crazy]

And it's pretty lucrative, too, if you think about it. They usually get most of the puppies from the litter to sell as they see fit.

 

I had my Toller on a breeding contract and this was not the case at all. the breeder got a say in the stud and paid half the cost for breeding, paid for the health testing and got 1 puppy back from each litter(up to 4 litters, alternating pick and second pick with me) the rest of the litter would be mine. the other option I was offered was that the whole litter was the breeders,but I would have no responsibility for anything, the dog would go back to the breeder for whelping and come back to me when done and all associated costs would be incurred by the breeder. -neither ever came to pass as she was not healthy, but that was the contract.

 

most breeding contracts I see these days are, basically "I give you dog for free, you raise it as you like, I pay for health testing and retain breeding rights, dog comes back to me for breeding up to X number of times, after that, dog must be spayed/neutered and full ownership is signed over to you at no further cost"

 

but then my only experience in these contracts is in Tollers, so maybe it's different in other breeds lol

[GentleLake]

It may well vary from breed to breed, and from breeder to breeder.

 

I haven't really been privy to too many of them lately, but the last one I personally knew of (it was a long haired whippet), the breeder got the entire litter of 4. The stud was hers, so no fees there, and I'm not sure about who paid vet bills, but every puppy in that litter would have been hers, even if there'd been 12. The co-owner didn't pay anything for the bitch as a puppy, IIRC, and full ownership went to her once the contract had been fulfilled.

[G. Festerling]

The beauty about contracts, when read and agreed to by both sides will have something in it for both. And if you don't like it, don't sign it. A breeder may very well be smart in placing a well bred dog with a co owner as to speak. Often they get to show and be the recipient of much more attention than at a breeders that may have multiple dogs. I think a breeder that chooses his alliances well, is a much better bet than a house full of dogs being bred. Simple math. Provided the buyer/co owner holds up their end.

 

But of course, that is not up for any discussion, if things are not agreed on by both sides.

[RemsMom]

Sorry you are having to deal with this. The breeder should have let you know in advance what her expectations were. When I was attempting to educate myself on Border Collies I searched for a breeder online I came upon a number of breeder that had contracts and the contracts were always posted so the buyer would be aware of what they were getting into. I did not go with any of the breeders I researched because they all had "AKC Breeder of Merit" posted on their website and I am no fan of the AKC (and this was before I knew there were two different types of Border Collies).

 

Please keep updating. If you do not get your deposit back I have a few suggestions that may help.

[Gloria Atwater]

Ahh, now I know who this breeder is. I haven't crossed paths with her anywhere in my part of the west.

Anyhow, keep making noise and raising a fuss, until you have her check cashed and the money in hand. Definitely a strange, sucky deal.

~ Gloria

[Smalahundur]

Apart from other factors, who gets what etc there is another thing about such a breeding contract I do not really like;

 

What kind of working dog breeder is so interested in breeding an untried pup that it justifies these kind of deals (offering pups for cheap/free as long as the seller has breeding rights as described).

 

That alone would raise a red flag for me.

[rushdoggie]

Apart from other factors, who gets what etc there is another thing about such a breeding contract I do not really like;

 

What kind of working dog breeder is so interested in breeding an untried pup that it justifies these kind of deals (offering pups for cheap/free as long as the seller has breeding rights as described).

 

That alone would raise a red flag for me.

 

I think the idea is it allows the breeder to have more intact, possibly breedable dogs out in the world, being raised and cared for by other people who will love them and allowed to grow up. Most people don't have the time or resources to keep several dogs from each litter. The pup grows up, the breeder keeps tabs, and if it should be bred it is, and in the meantime the pup remains in its forever home.

 

Its more controlling than any contract than I personally would want to sign, but I can see the merits.