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Doesn't sound like a working person...


Shetlander
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"Do not take too much notice of people who say that it does not matter what a sheepdog looks like as long as it works - there has never been a first-class dog yet which did not look good, and always remember that, if your dog or bitch is used for breeding at some time in the future, you will want both looks and brains."


--H. Glyn Jones, A Way of Life: Sheepdog Training, Handling and Trialling

 

A friend sent me a link to a sports/conformation breeder and right on the main page was the above quote. Not surprising that the breeder liked the quote since it supports their breeding program. I have no idea who the author of the quote is. It sure doesn’t sound like anything I’ve heard on these boards from the people who use their dogs for stockwork.

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A formidable trials competitor, Glyn won the Supreme with Gel at the 1973 International held at Bala. He was also reserve supreme champion with Gel and reserve with his homebred Bwlch Taff in 1982. A master in working doubles, he was five times winner of the brace competition on the TV series, One Man & His Dog with Gel and Bwlch Bracken.

Many people who have come into the sport of sheepdog trialling will have turned to Glyn’s ‘training bibles’. He produced three training dvds, Come Bye and Away, That’ll Do and Take Time and co-wrote the training book A Way of Life.

Glyn travelled the world to judge and hold training clinics and also welcomed visitors from around the globe to his home in North Wales.

He was also famous for his ‘Bwlch’ line of breeding which he began with his wife Beryl in the early 1960s.

 

A pretty prominent figure in the sheepdog training and competition world!

 

I believe the quote isn't meant to support those breeding BCs for the show ring. Because there, working qualities are thrown out the window and cosmetic attributes and faults are all that are taken into consideration. Of course this wouldn't work for dogs whose destiny is the trialling field. I believe the quote is more about a "sound" dog, one constructed harmoniously, as this is a great virtue for those who must work the hills and rough terrain where their livestock roam. A dog who is poorly constructed will break down, slower outruns, and perhaps hobble back to his kennel when the day is over. At least, this is my thinking.

 

And let's be honest, no matter if a dog is jet black all over, or dominant-white, they are all beautiful when they work. :)

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The person using the quote on their website is obviously taking it out of context and twisting it for their own uses. Glyn Jones assumed, without it needing to be said (because it was so obvious to him) that of course the dog is also a good worker. I'm sure he never meant to promote breeding 'for looks' without consideration of working ability. Also 'good looks' is not the same as conformation appearance. To me, a dog who is sound and well-put together and moves smoothly and with power and efficiency is what I consider 'good looks' and that dog is never more beautiful than when you actually see them at work. Any dog with a body that routinely and easily handles the kind of work a good working border collie does will look good by that definition. A poorly structured dog (not determined by a human standard, but by physics of a demanding job and the body mechanics required to get it done) won't look good working. For example, a barbie collie who bounces after sheep and can't outrun them (rather than the smooth, fast, and powerful run of a working bred dog) doesn't look good to me at all.

 

The way I read the quote, is that "there has never been a first-class dog yet which did not look good" is that if you breed a good working dog who can work efficiently and smoothly and has a body that effortlessly gets the job done, the demands of the work itself will produce a beautiful dog. So there is no point in breeding for beauty by itself because breeding for the work produces both.

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Thanks. Very educational! I wondered if it was being taken out of context. It really didn't make sense, though of course you would rather like the way your dog looks than not. Then again, I had a rare and wonderful Bassetweiler which most people thought looked very odd. To me, he was beautiful and his nickname was "Face."

 

I've always loved the way Border Collies looked, though the heavily conformation types (very Aussie looking) not so much.

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LOL I think it's really funny how people are going to such lengths to rationalize this.

 

I had the pleasure of meeting Glyn when he was judging trials in Virginia in the late '80s. The topic of appearance came up and he was unapologetic in saying that he liked an attractive-looking dog. He wasn't talking about structure; he was talking about appearance.

 

But, yes, it went without saying that he was talking about an attractive working dog, with the emphasis first on working.

 

ETA: I have the book. When I have more time later I'll see if I can locate the quote and tell y'all what the context was.

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I had the pleasure of meeting Glyn when he was in judging trials Virginia in the late 80s. The topic of appearance came up and he was unapologetic in saying that he liked an attractive-looking dog. He wasn't talking about structure; he was talking about appearance.

That's the way I took it from the wording of the quote.

 

"Looks" mean physical appearance irrespective of what the dog is doing at the time.

 

Don't we all like an attractive looking dog? Our ideas of what makes a dog attractive will differ though. IMO Richard Millichap's Dewi Tweed (Supreme Champion) wouldn't win any beauty contests; I wonder what HGJ thinks of him, there are several Bwlch dogs belonging to HGL's daughter Ceri a few generations back in his pedigree.

 

It's all conjecture as to what he meant by the quote if it has been taken out of context. But maybe there is no more to it; perhaps he just said it and felt secure enough in his own opinion not to feel the need to explain further. I think he has enough credentials to his name to respect his pov in this matter.

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Jones compares looks and mental abilities in his quote: "... you will want both looks and brains."

 

Had he compared looks to structure, soundness, gait or other characteristics, to me he would have meant something different.

 

The AKC started registering border collies in 1995, and the quote comes from a book published in 1987, so Mr. Jones may not have had antagonism toward discussion of satisfying appearance. However border collies were recognized by the Kennel Club in Great Britain in 1976, and much earlier in New Zealand and Australia.

 

I would like to think that H. Glyn Jones had his own beliefs about breeding to a written standard in which demonstrated working ability is not included. Looks may have meant to him, all the appearance traits supporting his standard of working ability, as well as superficial beauty.

 

Gentlelake (above) heard him speak and saw his demeanor in person, so I will look forward to his/her analysis after reviewing his quote in context. -- TEC

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The way I read the quote, is that "there has never been a first-class dog yet which did not look good" is that if you breed a good working dog who can work efficiently and smoothly and has a body that effortlessly gets the job done, the demands of the work itself will produce a beautiful dog. So there is no point in breeding for beauty by itself because breeding for the work produces both.

 

I agree with this. I have often heard horsemen say "A good horse is never a bad color."

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Dear Doggers,

 

Perhaps Gwyn Jones - like many British sheepdoggers of his generation - held a vague notion that the best sheepdogs were (probably) black and white, conventionally marked and - other things being equal - rough coated were handsomer than bareskinned dogs. Certainly the ISDS didn't fight very hard to keep the Border Collie out of the show ring. Sheepdoggers thought they'd have the same control of the dog they always had and perhaps some had heard of the prices other purebred puppies brought. My friend, the lamented Barbara Carpenter, was the first President of the KC Border Collie Club.

 

She and they regretted it.

 

Often enough so I think it is a widely held notion, Brits have lectured me on the vital importance of the sheepdog's tail. If a puppy's tail was deemed too long, the last joint was amputated. At one Scottish National I was told - earnestly and seriously - about a dog that having had its tail broken and badly set became a very poor outrunner until his tail was rebroken and reset.

 

A man can be a fine man, a brilliant sheepdogger and believe nonsense.

 

No different on our side of the pond.

 

Donald McCaig

 

 

 

 

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OK, so I've located the above referenced quote in my copy of A Way of Life: Sheepdog Training, Handling and Trialling, H. Glyn Jones talks to Barbara C. Collins, c. 1987.

 

It appears in Chapter 2: Choosing a Dog. Jones says that it's important that you like your dog's temperament and that "one can, with experience, pick out traits in dogs from particular lines, even going back many generations'" adding that he and his wife, Beryl, have developed their own line "strongly based on Wiston Cap" who he says "was a marvellous dog, full of intelligence and innate ability", and that he can "recognize a Wiston Cap type of puppy at a very early age, one that not only looks like his illustrious ancestor, but also moves and thinks like him." (p. 15)

 

He goes on to talk about choosing pairings that are compatible, saying that "Too many people who should know better will take their bitches to a dog because he is an International, National or good Open trials winner, not because the line of the dog is compatible with that of the bitch." (p. 15, emphasis original)

 

He offers advice about doing your homework to find lines with working styles that you like and locating a good breeder. "Once you decide which breed-lines interest you most and which you feel will be the best one(s) from which to choose a puppy, you then need to make a decision as to the type of puppy you want -- coat length and colour, personality, bitch or dog, a pedigreed dog . . .or unregistered. . . " (p.16, emphasis original), noting that a dog must be registered with the ISDS to run in trials.

 

This is followed by the quote that started this thread: "Do not take too much notice of people who say that it does not matter what a sheepdog looks like as long as it works - there has never been a first-class dog yet which did not look good, and always remember that, if your dog or bitch is used for breeding at some time in the future, you will want both looks and brains." (p. 17) You should be prepared to wait until you find a puppy that will meet all the requirements you have set, don't make an emotional choice, better to buy from a reputable breeder who has raised the pups well, vaccinated and done eye tests, but who may charge more than one who has not, and offers a few tips for choosing one from the litter.

 

On pages 18-19 he gives a list (w/ explanations) of physical characteristics to look for: Straight back legs [from the rear; i.e. not cow hocked], Good bone, Jaws, Hernia, Scrotum, Fleas, Sheep ticks, Eyes, and Eyes.

 

Later in the book he comes back to breeding in the chapter titled A guide for Novice Breeders." Here one of the things he says is:

 

"There are many reason why one should choose a stud dog (and the brood bitch) carefully, but for us [he and his wife Beryl], the one of prime importance is that of temperament, as a dog who is nervous, sulky or aggressive is of no use to any breeder and should be avoided. Our next consideration is that of bloodlines which should be compatible with those of our bitch and should contain plenty of outcrosses to other good dogs and bitches in addition to the lines which we particularly like -- we have a personal preference for the Wiston Cap lines but this is purely a matter of personal choice. It is always nice to see a classy dog and we aim to maintain this in our breeding programmes, although the working ability of the dog is of paramount importance, and with a good-looking bitch you can hope for handsome pups even if put to a less attractive dog which has been chosen for working ability (or vise versa)." (p. 131)

 

So, yes, Jones is saying he likes to breed for a good looking dog and that it's OK to include appearance in both the initial selection of the dog and also as a criterion for breeding. But (and this is a huge "but"), all of this is in the context of breeding working sheepdogs, which is what the book is about (working sheepdogs, not just breeding).

 

I would also say, given the location of the first quote in the chapter on choosing a pup, and the addition of the very telling statement that "the working ability of the dog [chosen for breeding] is of paramount importance" (emphasis added) in the chapter about breeding, that using the first quote to support breeding for appearance before working ability is indeed misrepresenting Glyn's intent.

 

As an aside, dunno of this is the website that Shetlander's friend was referring to, but this quote appears on BonniDune's website . . . along with the statement that "Well bred puppies have the "shadow " of their ancestors behind them, giving them confidence, ability and strength to do their jobs." Since they're conformation champion Barbie collies, I'd guess that BonniDune's dogs themselves are mere shadows of their ancestors. <_<

 

Btw, Glyn signed my book when I met him and it says there were reprints in '88, '89, and '90, so I must have met him in '90 or '91, not the late '80s as I originally said. My bad.

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Holy crap! I googled the quote and it looks like a lot of the Barbie collie breeders have latched onto it!

 

Very sad. I'm sure that's not what Mr. Jones had in mind when he wrote it. Very sad indeed.

 

ETA: The way these Barbie collie breeders are using the quote, I'd say it's being taken waaaaaaaaaaaaay out of context. The book it's in is about working sheepdogs, for heaven's sake!

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Reminds me of how people misintepret Juvenal's "mens sana in corpore sano" to mean you need to have healthy body to have a healthy mind.

 

Juvenal's intent was pretty much the opposite, telling people they shouldn't pray for things like wealth or long life.

 

But that if they had to pray for something they should pray for a sound mind. Nothing in the original quote about maintaining a healthy body leading to a healthy mind!

 

" (...) It is to be prayed that the mind be sound in a sound body.

Ask for a brave soul that lacks the fear of death,

which places the length of life last among nature’s blessings (...)"

(Juvenal, Satire X 356-359)

 

Somewhat off topic but I think similar to how 'brains and looks' was distorted from brains and working ability is primordial and will give you good looks.

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I own a bitch of his daughter's breeding, she traces back to his. She, off sheep, is a plain looking dog, but on sheep she is a thing of beauty. I always thought that the meaning of his quote was when working a well breed dog would be beautiful.

It saddens me that it is being used for the wrong reason.

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Hmmmm...I interpreted the quote as someone else did (there's no good horse that's a bad color). I simply took it to mean that good working dogs by definition don't look bad (although I had a talented open trial dog who was a bit, shall we say, oddly built). After reading some of the comments, I can see where it could be interpreted otherwise, but I would never have read it as supporting conformation breeding vs. just noting that the best working dogs are going to be nice looking (structurally at least) by definition.

 

I'm not surprised that conformation breeders would latch onto that and try to turn it into something that supports their thinking, but I sure don't get how anyone could read it as supporting breeding strictly for a particular look (ecept that we know people looking for justification for breeding for looks only would use it to their advantage if they could).

 

J.

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I think that people who interpret this as meaning "you shouldn't breed a dog that isn't your definition of pretty" find it very easy to use it to justify breeding cookie cutter show-bred dogs. After all, that is the image of "beauty" that the conformation breeders use to define "beauty". Even people here, a few of them, have equated those that win in the show ring with "beauty" and those that simply are good workers but not meeting that "standard" as not being "beautiful".

 

Taken out of context, the quote can be interpreted to suit conformation breeders' choices - taken in context, certainly not.

 

This has been a most illuminating discussion, and I thank those who have contributed.

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Definitely read the book that the quote is from. It is a great blend of history and training technique. If you are interested, he also made a number of videos that were a combination of travelogue and training advice.

 

Years ago, I would hear working people recommend choosing a dog whose appearance you like, since you will be looking at it a lot. I think this is probably what Glyn Jones meant, especially since he was in an area with a lot of good dogs to choose from. It is very different from breeding to a standard.

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Years ago, I would hear working people recommend choosing a dog whose appearance you like, since you will be looking at it a lot. I think this is probably what Glyn Jones meant, especially since he was in an area with a lot of good dogs to choose from. It is very different from breeding to a standard.

 

And that's exactly what he meant, at least when he was talking about in person. There was no way he was talking about breeding for a conformation or any kind of appearance standard. The whole conversation was about breeding in the context of working dogs . . .as was the book.

 

Taking the quote out of context of a book about working, training and breeding working dogs is completely disingenuous, a willful distortion of the original.

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I agree. I still tell people that with all things being equal (when looking at a litter for example), choose the dog that appeals the most (looks, behavior, je ne sais quoi) because that's the dog you'll most enjoy having around and therefore also be most likely to forgive a few faults (since no dog is perfect). Not to mention that everyone has different tastes, so what I find attractive in a dog appearancewise probably isn't what everyone else finds attractive (fortunately!).

 

J.

Years ago, I would hear working people recommend choosing a dog whose appearance you like, since you will be looking at it a lot. I think this is probably what Glyn Jones meant, especially since he was in an area with a lot of good dogs to choose from. It is very different from breeding to a standard.

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Thanks to Diana A, who interpreted this quote in the manner in which I'd interpreted it myself when I first read it in his book.

 

Thanks to GentleLake, who carefully put it into its full context.

 

I suspect that *many* of us has a dog with one or more of Glyn Jones' dogs in their pedigree (via Blwch Taff, a popular sire, grandson of Wiston Cap). Before anyone starts casting any stones - let's ask ourselves: who has done more to better the breed - Glyn Jones, or one of the breeders of the "Barber collies" perverting the quote taken from his book?

 

Just speaking for myself - I own, and treasure, this book. Even brought it on vacation this month in hopes of finding time to re-(re)read it. (But we had new kayaks, and their allure sucked up a lot of my reading time). The working Border collie community lost one of its great ones when Glyn Jones died this year.

 

Even if you don't work your Border collies, many of you would find this book of interest. Its glimpse into the Wales of past times, when hardly anyone spoke English, and everyone owned a lurcher to try to supplement the family's groceries.... Get it from your local library if you don't wish to purchase it. Read it, and understand what the working Border collie is supposed to represent. I didn't take the "appearance" part to heart. For me, any Border collie, doing what it's supposed to do, is a thing of beauty.

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Having met with Glyn (not Gwen) on several occasions and we spoke of dogs, their work and other sheepdog related topics, he was definitely speaking from the point of view of the dog being bred for work first.

 

The old farmer I got my first dog from way back in 1979 told me a man will take care of a good looking dog.

 

Both comments IMO are more on the subject of human nature. Back at the time the book was first written, many of the working dogs had very poor structure, today I do not see as many poorly structured dogs. But overall, better structured animals, to most stockmen I know, are better in appearance. If someone gets comments on how good looking their dog is they 'puff up' and are proud of their dog-just look at dog shows and you can see the lure is there.

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