Syncrope Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Anyone have any videos they could link me of conformation-bred border collies "herding?" I just wanted to compare them to myself with the real working-bred dogs since it sounds like you can really see the difference in the drive. I'm mostly really interested and want to see it for myself, but as of yet I can only find videos of working dogs. Thank you in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Try this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txFZT8CHHqA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney's Girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Of those videos posted, none of those dogs look like comformation bred Barbie Collies. They may not be true working bred dogs, maybe sport bred, but they are not conformation competitors. They are probably registered AKC but not very many, if more than one, generation back. Searching for actual videos of conformation competing Border Collies that do well in the ring and are in herding trials, are probably pretty rare, since the two don't go hand in hand. But I managed to dig this one out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Is it my imagination or where those sheep following the human while the dog followed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Is it my imagination or where those sheep following the human while the dog followed? I thought the same thing, it appeared at one point like the person sped up and started jogging a few steps and the sheep followed more quickly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I don't know, it seems to me that lady in Chesney's Girl's video did an awfully good job of getting those sheep to heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney's Girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Glad the difference is obvious in the working ability of the dogs. Those sheep are pretty typical for AKC trials. They have to have trained sheep because they don't have dogs that can control them. I've heard stories about people complaining at ACK trials that the sheep were not tame enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Yes, the sheep are trained to follow the person.....dog follows handler.....ta da! Another title earned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I don't have a video link, but have seen a few of the conformation-bred type of dogs working. Main things I notice are almost complete lack of eye and they have a weird bouncy way of running that seems to disturb the sheep more than a normal border collie (so much for 'conformation preserves working structure, eh?). They also don't seem to be able to cover the ground as effectively (maybe it's the bouncing, gee another ding at that whole 'structure' thing) so that if sheep get a head start on escaping, chances are they will outrun the dog. I also see a lot less keenness and work ethic - a good example is the video Chesney's Girl posted, where the dog went out for the sheep then stopped to sniff around the cone while the sheep were running away. What self-respecting working bred border collie would waste time sniffing a cone while sheep were only a few feet away and running????? A couple of the other videos the handler had to wave the stick around to help the dog stay in the correct place to fetch the sheep - something any well-bred dog should be able to do on their own over that short of a distance. The video Chesney's Girl posted didn't look like AKC to me - more like AHBA maybe? I didn't recognize the course (arena course but with a pen?) so knee-knocker type sheep following the handler isn't exclusive to AKC. I think that's just a natural down side of any organization that allows wearing at the lower levels and has sheep that have been used too much - they learn if they stay near the person, the person will protect them from the dog so it turns into a contest of who can keep their dog back off the sheep the best so the sheep follow the person and the person walks the course lines. In that type of run, you'll see the calmest work when the dog is least involved . . . sad. One of my first border collies was half sport lines and half conformation lines. He worked a lot like a conformation dog. He didn't turn on to sheep until almost 18 months old and he was never was very confident or very keen. He had a great outrun though, I think mainly because he avoided pressure so he never cut in on the top. If sheep went offline on the fetch though we were sunk because he never had the nerve to get in front of running sheep and turn them unless he could get WAY ahead of them, and with his bouncy running style he never could outrun sheep enough to get a comfortable distance ahead once they got any kind of a head start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Diana, that's AKC's B Course in the video Danielle posted. I'm not going to knock these dogs, after all, that's the only kind of "herding" my own dog can do. :/ But to the OP, just watch a few of those, and then watch something like the video posted here (Scott Glen at the Finals last year) and you'll see, it's apples and oranges... http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=33996 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Okay, I re-watched it and I see it now. The pen being open already and the handler being allowed to exhaust their own sheep (not typically seen in AKC) really threw me, plus I thought it was an arena course it was so small . . .the typical pattern just didn't register the first time. For any who aren't familiar with AKC courses, that video is AKC's version of the USBCHA course (as opposed to A course which is an arena course with obstacles on the fenceline). No comparison to your link of Scott's run, not by a mile. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syncrope Posted May 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 I also see a lot less keenness and work ethic - a good example is the video Chesney's Girl posted, where the dog went out for the sheep then stopped to sniff around the cone while the sheep were running away. What self-respecting working bred border collie would waste time sniffing a cone while sheep were only a few feet away and running????? Haha, that gave me a good laugh! Thanks all! The bouncing was the very first thing I noticed- and I'm no expert but it does look ridiculous! Those sheep really do seem to love the handler... erm. But loved the Scott Glen video! It was a great palate-cleanser! I felt lousy all morning and after checking up here, I got my first chuckle of the day! Hehe. Edit: The video by Ches. makes me recall the various movie scenes in Babe, the way the sheep just walk into their pen like they're trained! The more I compare the dogs the more I realize just how depressing it is that they're supposed to be the same breed! They really are not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 The bouncing and inability to cover are indicative of bad structure....the dog not only doesn't want or care to do the work, it is physically incapable due to poor structure. As they have destroyed many breeds before, conformation breeders are crippling dogs in the name of breeding for soundness. That's what happens when you breed for a look or form instead of what the dog does (ie a physical test/ standard). All these dogs in arenas following trained sheep who are following their owners are earning TITLES which serve as badges that the dogs are worthy of breeding. This is what those of us rant about when people excuse breeding for color or conformation or even sport. The run by Scott and June is the STANDARD that working border collies folks defend. Which dog do you want a puppy from? Scott Glen's June? Or the dog in Danielle's video? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Add coat type to the list of things that should NEVER be bred for, because after all they are doing that too. YUCK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) Add coat type to the list of things that should NEVER be bred for, because after all they are doing that too. YUCK! I couldn't agree more. Although I've used sheep shears in order to relieve more than a few Old English Sheepdogs that were matted to the skin, I'm quite sure that practice would have been foreign to a hill shepherd. That breed's placement in the AKC herding group is indicative of just how wrong-headed conformation breeding is. ETA: Although you can find web sites that claim shepherds would shear the dogs with the sheep. So what do I know... Edited May 23, 2013 by terrecar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Everyone I've known who had an OES, except those that show, sheared it. They bred out the brain on OESs a long time ago and one of their favorite things to do seems to be fingerpainting. I'll let you use your imagination about where they get the art supplies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Is it bad that I know someone who did that? Sheared the sheepdog, that is? In fairness, it was very hot. Gideon's girl- eeeew. There's an image that will haunt me at some unexpected moment in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 The pure conformation bred BCs from Aussie/NZ lines I have met were VERY short in the leg (almost half the length) compared to a working bred dog. They look like some sort of weird BC x Corgi mix. They physically can't cover ground fast enough to be effective on sheep. The dogs from British show lines aren't as bad, but still very different from their working bred counterparts. The show ring seems to encourage extremes, while breeding for work favors moderation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 Everyone I've known who had an OES, except those that show, sheared it. They bred out the brain on OESs a long time ago and one of their favorite things to do seems to be fingerpainting. I'll let you use your imagination about where they get the art supplies. zomg, years ago I worked as a groomer/bather and we had 2 OES who came in all the time who would literally poop in their crate and then lie down in it, getting it all in their coats. No matter how frequently they were walked or how big the crate or run was they always did it. We had to wait and groom them at the end of the day, and then hold them on leashes until the owner came. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 zomg, years ago I worked as a groomer/bather and we had 2 OES who came in all the time who would literally poop in their crate and then lie down in it, getting it all in their coats. No matter how frequently they were walked or how big the crate or run was they always did it. We had to wait and groom them at the end of the day, and then hold them on leashes until the owner came. Trust me, just lying down in it is way better than what the ones that came to us did. And I'm sure you know how OESs like to jump on people in greeting, especially when they are oh so very proud of themselves. Is it bad that I know someone who did that? Sheared the sheepdog, that is? In fairness, it was very hot. Gideon's girl- eeeew. There's an image that will haunt me at some unexpected moment in the future. It was 20 years ago and I still see it vividly, and think that OESs are a disgusting breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Is it bad that I know someone who did that? Sheared the sheepdog, that is? In fairness, it was very hot. Gideon's girl- eeeew. There's an image that will haunt me at some unexpected moment in the future. Oh it wasn't the fact that I had to shear them that bothered me. It was that the dogs' coats were allowed to get in such bad shape that the skin underneath was irritated. The only thing that would go through it was sheep shears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 The video of the Kerry Blue Terrier.... Nothing like going for a walk with your dog and some sheep. The dog doesn't even look at the sheep for 95% of it. I cannot believe that people really think this is working livestock. The other video of the merle dog spending half the time sniffing the ground and the uncomfortable 2 minutes where the lady waves her arm to get the dog near the sheep... How can people really think this is the way it is supposed to be? How would a farmer be able to use a dog that needed a person to walk with the sheep, especially since these are 'trialing' dogs who are not just learning? The dog is doing no work and is pointless. The whole (basic) idea is that the dog is getting the stock and moving them...not the person taking sheep for a walk where the dog happens to be there too? Do these people even think about what the dog is supposed to do in a practical sense? It isn't an obedience course. Ugh. So strange. I went to a festival a few weeks ago where they had "sheepdog demos" and they were aussies and border collies who were just walking behind ducks and sheep while the owners shoo'ed them away with a stick, that is if the dog even showed interest in the animals. Many of them just sat down and looked at their owners for the next cue. It was beyond boring to watch. Watching experience working bred dogs...is always breath taking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 Hmm,.. I just watched another video with that Kerry, this one was an AHBA trial. I am very confused about the AKC and AHBA trials-is there ever a trial where the person does not walk the sheep? Are these just lower level trials and there are higher levels in AKC/AHBA that do not allow the person to walk the sheep? I seriously do not understand what the point of it is. It looks like the person walks the sheep and the job of the dog is to just not get too close to the handler or sheep. That is all I ever see the handler command the dog to do-get back. So where is the skill, in their eyes, in these trials? The dogs ability to stay back and follow their owner off leash? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted May 24, 2013 Report Share Posted May 24, 2013 That is why they say any well trained dog can get an AKC herding title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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