Switching from raw, high performance dog food and supplement reccomendations

[Flamincomet]

I've been feeding raw for 5+ years and have loved the results. I've never had any problems with the diet, so I'm kind of hesitant to say this, but I'm looking into switching from prey model raw to a supplemented dry dog food. Link is a very active three year old neutered male, he is my service dog and also exercises regularly multiple times during the day outside as well as on a treadmill. I'm also training him to pull a dog powered scooter which we will be using as our main transport, and in the spring/summer we go on regular hikes. In addition I'm also planning to start trialing him in sheepdog trials this year.

 

The problem I'm running into is that he is having trouble staying at a good weight, especially trying to condition him. He's always been on the thin side, but I think his diet is holding him back mainly due to the sheer amount of food that he eats. He's eating on average at least half a chicken a day, and he should be eating more. I'm recently divorced, moved, and don't have a car to get to the meat locker I was able to get good deals and variety at previously. So I've been looking into several different brands.

 

Coming from a raw feeding perspective, I am pretty picky about what food I'd like to feed. I won't feed brands like Innova Evo since it was sold to Procter & Gamble especially with the recent recall. Dehydrated food products like Stella & Chewy's are unfortunately out of my price range. The brands I'm looking into are Orijen and Go! (grain free). I also have been looking into Redpaw X-Series Perform 3, but I just read about it today so I don't know too much. Advice and recommendations about these brands would be very helpful, especially if fed to working dogs. I'm also looking for other recommendations, for dry food as well as supplements. I still plan to supplement raw for dental benefits so any experience doing that (how often, what cuts of meat, etc) would be greatly appreciated.

[Maralynn]

What about adding in a few carbs to his diet? Like a bowl of cooked oatmeal? That can make a difference with dogs that are hard keepers on raw

[Flamincomet]

It's not so much a weight problem as a muscle conditioning problem. He's at a healthy weight, but not conditioned as well as I'd like for everything that I ask him to do. He's kind of plateaued physically, but when he was in boarding with Norm and on kibble he was very built.

[waffles]

Are you feeding only chicken? Have you always or just recently since not being able to obtain other meats? Feeding only chicken is definitely why he may not be where you want him to be, and why he requires so much each day. Can you place an ad on Craigslist, local paper or know of hunters (you could get someone to deliver then)? I get a lot of my dogs meat from hunters so most of his diet is venison as well as pork heart and tongue (many of which is free or very cheap). The fattier cuts plus fattier pork has helped my very active dog look amazing. I can't imagine if I only fed chicken. It just is too lean I think and obviously variety in protein is ideal.

 

Otherwise I would go with Fromm's if you do switch to dry. It is what I used to feed.

[olivehill]

It's not so much a weight problem as a muscle conditioning problem. He's at a healthy weight, but not conditioned as well as I'd like for everything that I ask him to do. He's kind of plateaued physically, but when he was in boarding with Norm and on kibble he was very built.

 

What kibble was he on with Norm? If it's not broke, why fix it?

[Flamincomet]

He doesn't only get chicken, but over a couple months chicken has been his staple just due to availability problems I didn't have before. He still was scrawny even when I had access to a very large variety of proteins (mainly fresh goat, lamb, beef, sometimes venison). He was even getting whole prey a few times a week for a while. I've tried posting on craigslist but I never have any success.

 

I asked what the brand of kibble was at Norm's but I've forgotten it now, I remember thinking it was a good quality. He did gain a lot of muscle (I'm also sure due to getting even more exercise and work than now), but I noticed some things I didn't like, like hot spots, poor coat, and soft stool. So while I don't mind him on that while he's in boarding/training for a short time, I'd rather try something else as his main diet.

[OurBoys]

I switched my dogs over to Earthborn’s Great Plains Feast. Jake and Josie have been on it for a few weeks and seem to be doing well. I just used up the last bag of JJ’s EVO so he hasn't been on it for long but it seems to be agreeing with him.

 

Whatever kibble you choose to go with, you can always supplement it with a homemade ‘vitamin gravy’ using what you think would work best. For my guys I make a gravy using (all pureed):

 

Boiled beef liver (cheaper than calves liver)

Brown rice (If mine start losing too much weight, I increase the amount of rice.)

Pumpkin

Plain yogurt

Calcium pills

Glucosamine pills

Low sodium V-8 juice

An overripe banana or 2 if I have any

 

Twice a day they get kibble, gravy, a flaxseed oil capsule and water at meal time. (Jake gets twice as much water in his bowl since he won't drink enough on his own during the day.) For cleaning their teeth, they get a turkey neck or a marrow bone every once in a while. They’ve been in search of rabbit droppings lately so they got one of each this week. Cleared their bad breath right up.

[Nanda & Nelson]

I was feeding Nelson raw, but he actually lost weight. His raw food was a mix of sometimes chicken other times beef, vegetables and raw bones. My vet keeps telling me he is too skinny. We started feeding him double, and he still didn't really gain any weight. A month ago, we started giving him kibble in the morning and then raw at night. It is something some people say you shouldn't do (mixing raw with kibble), but I think it depends on your dogs system.

We choose Now! dog food, it is high quality, grain free and has a variety of recipes. Nelson seems to enjoy this one (others, like Acana and Fromm, he would never finish) and they have never been involved in any food recalls. He gets two cups of this in the morning and then he gets 250gr of raw food at night. He finally seems to be building (even more) muscle and a little bit of body fat (he really has almost none).

 

As treats he gets Salmon links which he loves and bully sticks or raw turkey necks for the teeth (and the fun). He never has the runs, unless he gulps half the ocean while swimming .

[Gideon's girl]

I also do part raw and part kibble. My dogs have never had a problem with it. For kibble I use Brothers Complete, Earthborn, Natures Variety Instinct, Orijen. I rotate through the flavors and brands. This has encouraged a healthy gut in my dogs and they never get upsets from switching foods with no transition anymore.

[Liz P]

Canine athletes need carbs for top performance (hundreds if not thousands of research papers are available on the topic). I've fed RedPaw for years and love the results. No complaints at all with their food, and it's a smaller company.

[waffles]

 

Canine athletes need carbs for top performance (hundreds if not thousands of research papers are available on the topic). I've fed RedPaw for years and love the results. No complaints at all with their food, and it's a smaller company.

Do you think adding oatmeal or rice would then help while keeping with raw? Or potatoes as many grain free kibbles use? Maybe that would make more sense if the OP doesn't want to use kibble.

[Liz P]

You could add cooked oatmeal or barley, but with any home made diet there is always the issue of whether or not it's balanced.

[Flamincomet]

I worry about balance especially asking him to do so much physically.

 

I'm thinking about going with Orijen at least at first, because I think it will be an easier transition from raw due to the high meat content. I'm still going to supplement with raw for dental benefits, and maybe rotate Go! and/or Fromm. The thing I'm worried about is that Orijen especially touts low carbs. Their website says their food is good for all activity levels, but I still wonder if I should add carbs on days he's more active. I'm still looking into Redpaw X-Series as well, but it's hard to beat Orijen's quality of ingredients.

 

Here are the ingredients of both for comparison.

 

 

Orijen (Adult Dog)

 

Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium.

* FRESH AND PRESERVATIVE-FREE

SUPPLEMENTS
Vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast.

Redpaw X-Series 3

Chicken, menhaden fish meal, chicken meal, oatmeal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), pearled barley, beet pulp, pork blood meal, chicken liver, pork meat meal, dried whey, fish oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), flaxseed, brewers dried yeast, potassium chloride, salt, sodium selenite, folic acid, Vitamins [vitamin A acetate, Vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin B12 supplement, choline bitartrate, niacin supplement, d-calcium pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin supplement, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, biotin], Minerals [zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, copper sulfate, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, sorbic acid (preservative), ferrous proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, magnesium proteinate, manganese proteinate, cobalt proteinate], dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium longum fermentation product, dried lactobacillus plantarum fermentation product, dried enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

[gcv-border]

From the ingredients, it looks like splitting hairs. It just depends on how important you value certain ingredients and the "Fresh and Preservative-Free" attribute. I did notice that RedPaw seems to have more probiotics.

 

For me, the labelling (of any product, not just dog food) does not go far enough. I would really like to know specific proportions of ingredients, not just how much in order of weight or volume. Of course, the companies would probably argue proprietary information.

 

I think that the ultimate test is how well your dog responds to a particular diet. I would try both.

 

Jovi

[Gideon's girl]

I agree with Jovi, try both, but would take it a step further. I do rotational feeding and have a few different foods that I switch between. Since no food is perfect, I feel my dogs are getting a better variety of nutritional elements than if they only ate one food. And as a wonderful side affect, my dogs never get upset tummies from switching foods. They have a very healthy gut, which is a huge part of the immune system, which means I have to worry even less about what they pick up and eat or what that last bag was recalled for.

[gcv-border]

I agree with Jovi, try both, but would take it a step further. I do rotational feeding and have a few different foods that I switch between. Since no food is perfect, I feel my dogs are getting a better variety of nutritional elements than if they only ate one food. And as a wonderful side affect, my dogs never get upset tummies from switching foods. They have a very healthy gut, which is a huge part of the immune system, which means I have to worry even less about what they pick up and eat or what that last bag was recalled for.

I also mix up the kibble I feed my dogs and have not seen any issues when changing between kibble brands. One problem with changing brands is that one can not benefit from brand programs that reward you with a free bag after buying 10, or 12, bags of the same brand.

 

Jovi

[alligande]

I also change food often, I get my food online, check out what is on sale, check what rating the food has and order what is good value and good quality, and my dog has no problem changing from one bag to the next. Some times I find a food he really likes and sometimes find one he hates and try to remember which is which.

 

I never had any luck with loyalty programs, I don't think I ever managed to get a free bag

[Gideon's girl]

I must buy more kibble than you. I got my free bag of NutriSource a couple months ago, it did take a year. And it will be a few more months until I get my free bag of Earthborn, but I'm looking forward to it.

[SS Cressa]

I have been feeding Fromm and love it. Nice stool, amazing coats. I have never seen my dogs coats so pretty before!

 

I was feeding orijens for a little bit but had problems with it. At the time I didn't realize My dog is allergic to Rosemary extract.

Also I try to stay away from food that are very heavy into chicken everything. Since my girl doesn't like chicken when she has been worked out. Aka if she is at a competition she will not touch it if it is chicken?! And she even refuses raw chicken too after she has been worked.