Medic4taz Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Saw an infomercial today for Don Sullivan "The Perfect Dog" Training SystemDon Sullivan "The Perfect Dog". I am not one to buy things off of TV especially gimmics, but I did do some research today and found some amazing posts on other boards - Dogster. I have yet to order it because we are clicker training our dog and have had some pretty good results, but other behaviors (jumping on people, walking on loose leash etc) we are having very very slow process. I'm posting this to see if anyone else has heard of this system or even tried it and what their thoughts are on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Many people unwittingly use so called “training devices” such as head halter training devices, Martingale collars, and even flat collars, believing wholeheartedly that they are effectively establishing their leadership [. . .] However, these devices have such minimal physical corrective consequence that they do nothing to gain the dog’s respect or to change its behavior. That about says all *I* need to know about such a system. Corrections are about appropriateness and timing, not physical consequence, in my opinion. It's a fancy (and probably not very durable, from the looks of it) pinch collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Okay - whole lot of crap on that website - yeesh It's just a prong collar and if you read through all that stuff without falling asleep, it is correction/compulsion training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Bleck - there are soooo many better methods out there. Honestly, you'd be better off looking for a good trainer who can help you one-on-one with your dog. A great place to start would be the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Trainer search at wwww.apdt.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medic4taz Posted February 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 This is in response to an email I recieved.....thank you !!! We have been clicker training her now for 2 1/2 months and have gotten some pretty good results. I was just posting this to see what peoples thoughts are on this training system. Kaycee, our BC, is doing quite well with the lure/food clicker training, but some of the results have not been so good. We have had her in training classes for the past 6 weeks (AKC star puppy program through a private group sessions, not petsmart!)and has caught on to some of her behaviors. The jumping on people ( we have tried and still continue to turn our back on her until she sits ) and she will sit but not without jumping 2 or 3 times first. When it comes to people coming into our home or walking her in town or any time any where - she continues to jump and we instruct every person we meet to follow our training that we have followed through with, and she has not gotten any better ( or worse ) at the jumping. She will sit for other as well "IF" people follow our direction. Also loose leash walking we have worked on for quite a long time now and she continues to pull pull pull.... We have tried the treat - take a step method, we have tried easy walk harness, and tried the turn around and start over method etc. We aren't looking for overnight results - these behaviors have been worked on now for quite a long time. Now granted she is 17 weeks old and she is still a pup but she takes to some of her training ( sitting, laying down, touch, recall (shes been getting better with this - still working on it). We have about an acre of property that is unfenced and technically a 25 MPH road with no sidewalks except people do 50 down our road. I need some help with boundaries and being able to focus better when I say a command. Kaycee just does what a puppy wants to do. This is why I researched a little on this TV ad and wanted to post something on the boards. I have appreciated everything people have posted for the past few months on issues my wife and I have had. As for right now we will continue to use the clicker training method we started with, but I wanted to get peoples thoughts and concerns on the training system. As for all the constructive criticism on the TV ad - I respect all the answers and will most likely not use it, but I do have to say at the same time that not every nor any training method is the right one for every dog. It goes along the same lines as how to discipline our kids. There are dozens of "ways" to teach our children. Some absolutely forbid us to spank our kids etc. My mother broke wooden spoons on my behind and you know what - I look back on it today and thank her that she did. Now do i do this to my child -- Absolutely NOT!!! but we all learned from different ways of being taught certain things. OK sorry got off on a tangent -- any other ideas other than the ones we have tried so far on our above issues we are still having..???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I do use corrections/aversives. I'm not against that side of training in a philosophical point of view. I'm speaking as someone who's successfully used a combination of all points of the training models for many years. You asked my opinion and my opinion is that it's an excuse to sell a high priced tool that already exists in a lower priced, non-patented form. If you really think your four month old puppy needs a pinch collar, I'd advise getting a real one and putting your money into a private trainer. Better yet, as someone advised, if you are feeling that overwhelmed at this stage, contact APDT and seek the help of a pro to refine and improve your overall training. For instance, clicker training isn't "lure/treat" - it's just about the opposite. I sometimes play with luring to produce a behavior quickly, but I'm never satisfied with the long term results compared with M/R (click/treat). So all methods are not created equal. It depends on the person using them, the dog, and the circumstances. Please remember your pup is still a youngster. Border Collie puppies tend to fool people because they learn stuff SO fast. But their brains, I've noticed, actually mature much slower than most dogs, in terms of the potential mischief. They apply their brain power to dreaming up applications for misbehavior that wouldn't even cross the minds of most dogs. And they can do it much earlier. And faster. And with more accuracy. While your pup grows, please don't assume that because your pup returns to behavior you thought you had a handle on, that your training approach wasn't successful. They periodically "forget" training. It's more important to be CONSISTENT than it is to find the latest, best, coolest training method. Pick an approach and stick with it. If you are not getting results at all, go to an expert in that approach and get some fine tuning. Border Collies do nicely with a wide range of methods, but the one thing they share in common is that the answer is never MORE FORCE. That's what mainly annoyed me about this guy. The quote I lifted basically said that other methods don't work because they are not harsh enough to work consistently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordercentrics Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 I had never heard of this trainer, so won't comment on his methods. I think other responses have covered it. Just wanted to tell about what was successful for a dog of mine who jumped on everybody. I am also a clicker trainer and a friend of mine said "Click for 4 on the floor!" That is what I did, and in one week the behavior had disappeared. You know what situations will cause your dog to jump, so be just ahead of her and click and treat BEORE she jumps. I know they are fast, but you can do it with practice. If she does jump on you, turn your back and DON'T TOUCH HER for any reason, especially to push her off. Any touch at this point is a reward to a dog. Good luck. I do have a leash pulling Border Collie as well. The things that worked best for her were a) when she pulled, I stopped in my tracks and there was no forward motion until she gave me slack in the lead (requires LOTS of patience), and varying the leash, harness, or halter that I was using on walks. She can now walk on a Martingale collar on walks. This is a recent development. Not to be discouraging, but she is 4 years old, haha. Some innate drives will always show themselves, and it can be a constant battle, or so it seems, to overcome them. But you CAN do it! Kathy Robbins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 While your pup grows, please don't assume that because your pup returns to behavior you thought you had a handle on, that your training approach wasn't successful. They periodically "forget" training. It's more important to be CONSISTENT than it is to find the latest, best, coolest training method. Pick an approach and stick with it. If you are not getting results at all, go to an expert in that approach and get some fine tuning. This is a great point! Find a method you're comfortable with and give it time to work, don't try something for a couple days and think that's long enough. Like Rebecca said, consistency is very important! It seems like they all forget something or the other you were sure they had down pat. Go back and do a refresher course and they are usually back to the old level of performance in no time. If not, there might have been a piece missing in the foundation training that needs to be addressed. Happy Training~ Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medic4taz Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 UPDATE ON TRAINING: Well, I'm almost afraid to post this in fear of hearing the backlash, but hear me out.... I am proud to announce Kaycee has graduated AKC Puppy Star Program a few weeks ago. Our continued effort and consistency with her clicker training had payed off. Although as I had posted before Kaycee was still having difficulty with staying on a loose leash without pulling. We have worked daily, 3 x a day, with the training we were taught with little improvement. After Kaycee's graduation I contacted "BARK BUSTERS" which seems to be a national chain. Upon speaking with the owner/operator is was approx. $600 for the training and he began to explain their philosophy behind their methods. When I hung up the phone I recalled very similar training from this "Don Sullivan Perfect Dog Training System" I began to again look at reviews from private blogs etc and found things to be quite positive. Well for "2 payments of 29.95" it was worth looking into. The system came in 3 days ago and began watching the videos and using the collar. I have to admit beyond anyones negativity towards this system -- in a matter of minutes -- not hours -- literally 3 minutes Kaycee was walking on a loose leash. I continued to have the collar on for additional training that day and had to only make a few small corrections. Now over the past few days she does not have the collar on and I'm walking her on her old leash and collar WITHOUT ANY PULLING. If she does begin to pull, a slight gentle tug on her "regular collar" she immediately stops and continues to walk on the loose leash. Again I have worked for several weeks consistently trying to get her to walk on a loose leash, and this system corrected it immediately. The collar is actually quite durable and works on a similar principal of a prong collar/pinch collar without the high risk of pain from a real prong collar. In all honesty there is little we really need this system for, because her clicker training has worked, but to use it in conjunction with some of our clicker training if necessary, is quite a valuable tool. I'm sorry if people don't agree with it, but it is by far safer and more humane than the typical prong, spray collar, shock collar etc. I wouldn't have normally believed this could work so fast, but it does...And now I can say as other blogs have said - this system does really work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 ...Again I have worked for several weeks consistently trying to get her to walk on a loose leash, and this system corrected it immediately. The collar is actually quite durable and works on a similar principal of a prong collar/pinch collar without the high risk of pain from a real prong collar...it is by far safer and more humane than the typical prong... Prong collars, fitted properly, are not painful or dangerous. I've used one on Dan, my stubborn pound mutt, and it works like a charm. In my case, I decided I ENJOYED his pulling...he always seems so happy & eager! So we taught him to heel when we command, and let him pull the rest of the time. I suspect many folks watching from their windows think I need to read a dog training book, but so what? We're both happy with things the way they are. When I was in the Air Force, a distinction was made between techniques and procedures. A procedure was something you MUST do, or you would damage equipment or endanger yourself. A technique was something that worked for some folks, but not others. Procedures were mandatory. Techniques were 'Try it, and use it if it works for you'. As an instructor, I collected techniques to pass on to students. The collar you bought (which I am not familiar with) sounds like a technique. If it worked well for you, great. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedismom Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 And now I can say as other blogs have said - this system does really work. No backlash here. I've pretty much used every method under the sun for Cadi, my golden/spaniel queen, including a collar very similar to the one featured in this system. No one method has worked totally for her. She's a challenge and we're still learning. I would not use a strong physical correction or aversive method on Jedi, my "soft" bc. He would become increasingly anxious and start all sorts of avoidance behaviors. So it's important to know your dog. I'm glad you found a system that worked for you. Thank you for sharing what you've found to be successful regardless of other's opinions. That's how we all learn and make these boards interesting. Georgia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4ever Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 After Kaycee's graduation I contacted "BARK BUSTERS" which seems to be a national chain. Upon speaking with the owner/operator is was approx. $600 for the training and he began to explain their philosophy behind their methods. Bark Busters. I see their prices have gone up since we first contacted them. We paid our initial one time fee and if we have any issues pop up that we can't fix, they will return, free of charge for the rest of the dog's life. Can't beat that. Sometimes it's just a matter of a quick e-mail question where she can suggest something that might work, sometimes it's a home visit. We particularly liked Bark Busters because they would come to the house. Scooter (and we) never got much out of the classes with a dozen other dogs running around in various stages of excitement and aggression. When I was in the Air Force, a distinction was made between techniques and procedures. A procedure was something you MUST do, or you would damage equipment or endanger yourself. A technique was something that worked for some folks, but not others. Procedures were mandatory. Techniques were 'Try it, and use it if it works for you'. I like your comment bsms99 about the difference between techniques and procedures. We have had very good results with Bark Busters techniques, sometimes immediate. They suggest trying something, but if that isn't working for your dog, they suggest something else. It's never a "my way or the highway" kind of thing. I also like the fact that this person knows my dog and his quirks, so she can customize her approach to helping us help him. Reading books and watching videos (which I did) is all well and good, but IMO, sometimes you need a real person standing there in front of you teaching you the right techniques to get the desired results. They do sell collars and leashes, etc., but I've never felt pressured to buy their products. When we have purchased items from them, I've always been satisfied with the quality and the price (NILIF philosophy--for humans!) It might not be for everyone, but for us, Bark Busters has been a very positive experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Elvin Kopp (rancher/stockdog trainer/clinician) is well known for pointing out that his "system" or method is not the only one. The right one for you is the one that produces the right results. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medic4taz Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 ANOTHER UPDATE!!! Thanks for all the feedback and thoughts... We worked today on "stay" and "down from a distance" ... I am AMAZED!!!! The "stay" command took a couple of corrections. But within about 10 minutes I was walking to the other side of our property ( approx 150+ yards ) and she waited until I returned to release her. We again brought her inside where we have had the most difficulty with "stay" when we walk out the front door to get mail etc. I told her to "stay" and no sooner did I put one foot out the door she was right at my heels. Brought her back for the correction and did it again... She stayed and waited 10 minutes for me to return and release her. WOW!!! The down from a distance was easy - took 1 correction - and even with her running full speed with a toy/ball in her mouth - instantly stopped and layed down. I can't begin to tell you how much money this is saving me in private training/lessons. Especially in this economy!!! And Kayee is still the same ol Kaycee - happy as can be following me around the house and wanting to play ball and full of love and kisses. Thanks everyone!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Thanks for all the feedback and thoughts... We worked today on "stay" and "down from a distance" ... I am AMAZED!!!! The "stay" command took a couple of corrections. But within about 10 minutes I was walking to the other side of our property ( approx 150+ yards ) and she waited until I returned to release her. We again brought her inside where we have had the most difficulty with "stay" when we walk out the front door to get mail etc. I told her to "stay" and no sooner did I put one foot out the door she was right at my heels. Brought her back for the correction and did it again... She stayed and waited 10 minutes for me to return and release her. WOW!!! You sure you aren't working part time to drum up some business for this guy? Just kidding. I love your excitement and it sounds like you are having fun seeing your smart girl learn so quickly and easily. Glad this is working for you and I will file your success story away for future reference. With clicker and now this, you have a few different tools at your disposal for training. I can't comment on this system because I only saw part of an infomercial but seems it is a good fit for you. I'd be interested in hearing further updates. Happy training! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haystack Hollow Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 So what's the secret method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 So what's the secret method? There are no secrets to training a border collie. Lead your dog through don't follow or push them. Keep your voice down. Just tug on a choke chain, never pull it up. Lots of praise And understand that a BC knows the difference between "no" "No!" and "NO!" Another thing is talk normally to them. You're BC is smarter than you think, maybe even smarter than you and definitely smarter than a fifth grader. They'll do what ever you want. Just show them how. Years ago a BC named Glyniss learned how to pull a self closing gate gate open and hold it for the other dogs before she went through. No one showed her how to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haystack Hollow Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Okay. But I'd like to hear about this particular method. The Bark Busters website won't say anything about what it is or how it works, but I thought somebody whose seen it work such wonders would be willing to tell about it in more detail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I think Barkbusters mainly consists of yelling "Bah!" at the dog as you walk down the street with him. At least, that's what it looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Bleck - there are soooo many better methods out there. Honestly, you'd be better off looking for a good trainer who can help you one-on-one with your dog. A great place to start would be the Association of Pet Dog Trainers Trainer search at wwww.apdt.com. Maggie you need a spellchecker in your browser it's spelled "blech" Okay. But I'd like to hear about this particular method. The Bark Busters website won't say anything about what it is or how it works, but I thought somebody whose seen it work such wonders would be willing to tell about it in more detail. I think Barkbusters mainly consists of yelling "Bah!" at the dog as you walk down the street with him. At least, that's what it looks like. As you know I've been looking at training methods and DVDs. I talk to BarkBusters and asked for a demo. I didn't get one. Their thought was, "If I give you a demo now you know the method". I also didn't like the attitude I got from them. Regards Don Sullivan, I checked him out as well along with a couple of dozen other training CD/DVDs. What I've found is a lot of people trying to make a buck with little substance if any at all. If I were going to buy a DVD I think I would get the one from the guys who made at Working Sheepdogs in the UK. What sold me on it was he talked about and showed what can go wrong in his promotional videos. That's either very clever marketing or he really knows his excrement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I talk to BarkBusters and asked for a demo. I didn't get one. Their thought was, "If I give you a demo now you know the method". I also didn't like the attitude I got from them. Is Bark Busters the same over there as in the UK - you don't even have to have any dog experience to buy into the franchise operation? You just have to be a good salesperson. Minimal "one size fits all" training and way you go - all set to fleece the innocent public? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertranger Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Based in Austrailia and all over the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 Based in Austrailia and all over the world. I just wondered if the lack of dog experience needed was the same elsewhere. Got that off their own web site so it's not hearsay. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susie Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 Bad reviews everywhere look at this http://www.petdogblog.com/theperfectdogcom-review/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Momma Posted January 17, 2013 Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 Going back a bit, I see how the prong/choke collar would assist with preventing leash pulling, but did you use the system for the jumping or was that corrected with the AKC Star Pup click training? Mur is now 7 months and he's STILL jumping even after passing Star Pup with flying colors. We solved the pulling issue with him using the Halte/Easy Leader. I seriously am at my wits end on the jumping though. Let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.