kims-ark Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hello, I have come here with the hopes that you can help me learn what I need to about the different "sensitivities" of Border Collies to things like medications, vaccinations, etc. On January 27, 2008 we brought Misty home at the age of 8 weeks. She is a sweet little Shep/Border Collie cross. Much to our horror she had her first seizure the following evening and we were rushing her to the ER. After we returned home with her she had a second seizure and a third the following morning. They ran a CBC at the ER and that came back normal. Since then she has been seen by our regular vet and has undergone another CBC and a Bile Acid-Pre & Post, all of which have come back normal. Today we got the news that the test for Toxoplasmosis has come back negative and we are still waiting for the results of the test for Neosporia. This is what I do know for sure. She was vaccinated with a "combo" shot and wormed before we picked her up on the 27th. From what research I have done the shot and/or the wormer could have something to do with the seizures, even though our vet doesn't think so. If the shot was the culprit of the seizures is there a chance that she will seize again when she recieves another vaccination? I have read about the new vaccination protocol by Dr. Dodds and plan on bringing that up to my vet (I may have a fight on my hands with that). This is my first experience with a herding dog and any and all information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Kim & Misty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kims-ark Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I didn't think I'd get a very warm reception here and I'm sorry if my mutt has offended any one but I was hoping someone would come to the plate and help me. I am not the one responsible for her being on the face of this earth and neither is she. I didn't think asking for a little information would be too much to ask but apparently it is. She is the result of an irresponsible breeder of German Shepherds having an unaltered male Border Collie around and accidently getting in with her female that was in heat. Again I am sorry if my mutt offended anyone. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicGirl Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I think your mutt, as you call her, is absolutely adorable. Sorry if no one has posted (looks like your post has been up only an hour). I have no answer for you because I no nothing about seizures and vaccines. Give it alittle more time and maybe someone who knows something about this subject will post. I wish you and Misty the best of luck solving this health problem. I know how frighting it can be not knowing what is wrong with your beloved pet. Please keep us informed with how she does. People on this board do care. Lorna Magics Mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hi Kim, There are lots us of here with mixes, and I really don't think anyone is snubbing you. Sometimes it takes a while for someone knowlegeable about your problem to check in. Give it a day before bumping your question back up (if you can't wait that long, you'll probably be better off calling your vet). There's a Yahoo group on epilepsy, if you want to examine that possibility, but of course I couldn't say if that is the problem. I'd also go through old posts (use the search feature or browse the health section, especially the pinned post on over-vaccination). Anyways, that's all the useful stuff I can think of. I hope you can figure out something soon. -Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SweetJordan Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I didn't think I'd get a very warm reception here and I'm sorry if my mutt has offended any one but I was hoping someone would come to the plate and help me. I am not the one responsible for her being on the face of this earth and neither is she. I didn't think asking for a little information would be too much to ask but apparently it is. She is the result of an irresponsible breeder of German Shepherds having an unaltered male Border Collie around and accidently getting in with her female that was in heat. Again I am sorry if my mutt offended anyone. Kim I love mutts, and for the first time in my life I'm not living w/ one. Kind of miss having one around. Anyway, there are any number of things that can cause seizures and a bad reaction to vaccinations can be just one of the many reasons among many others. I give my dogs thuja to help counteract the negative effects of vaccines as soon after as possible, and I'm very conservative w/ vaccines esp. after puppyhood. Other than Rabies if I need to know their immunity I do titers and never would allow multiple vaccines to be given. Now I'm opening up a whole other can of worms, but I would take her to someone who practices holistic or integrative medicine. They will also have a different take on vaccines and how that should be dealt w/. Oh forget to mention that if the problem continues a specialist may be in order(neurologist), but that's something your regular vet would decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hey MuttMom, I doubt anyone was offended by your adorable mutt. I know I wasn't. However, you might get more responses if your subject line were more informative. I think some of the more knowledgeable members here don't bother looking at topics unless they know it's something they are interested in or have some expertise on. I know you can't change the subject line on this topic, but for next time you could try something like "9 1/2 wk old BC mix seizing after 1st puppy shot". Also, it's not against the rules to start a new topic if you really feel like this one is being ignored and a new subject line would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I am not very knowledgable on seizures and vaccinations but I have read that they can be associated with vaccinations. A pups immune system is not fully developed till about 6 months so the reaction at 8 weeks can be very different to that of an adult. There are several good yahoo groups devoted to vaccination problems. My older BC had a bad reaction to his 12 week booster and his immune system started to attack his own skin. Luckily he grew out of it but now has allergies to all sorts of things. I still vaccinate him but do the minumum diseases and with as few combined in the same vaccine as possible. I think your pup is very cute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I am not very knowledgable on seizures and vaccinations but I have read that they can be associated with vaccinations. Same here, I've heard of it but have no knowledge on it. No one was stubbing. It just takes awhile for people who know anything about the subject to post. Shes cute and I hope you the best of luck. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathy Chittenden Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Oh, how sad. i know there has been a lot written about vaccines and side effects out there in cyberspace, Dr. Jean Dodds is the expert on all of that. Do you know if any littermates are also having seizures? Another possible cause could be a high population of whipworm. Whipworm is extremely nasty, often goes undetected in stool samples as they must be in the right cycle to show up in the stool and they are very damaging and hard to get rid of once they have gotten into the soil. One reason all new foster dogs coming into my house get Drontal plus. Good luck with your baby, life is definitely not fair at all sometimes:( Kathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I know it's hard when you're looking at a sick puppy, but it really is going to take more than an hour in middle of the night to get an answer to a complex question like this one. In your position, I would keep working with your vet and keep trying to eliminate causes for the seizures. Has she had any since the three you mention in your post? How is she otherwise? Eating and drinking okay? Active and alert? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yeah, I think because your post was in the middle of the night for many of us.... The vaccinations could have been the pre-cursor to her seizures, but you can never be sure. At this point it's important to think of the now and the future. I have a vet who would probably say no more vax on this pup, or at the most do one at a time. Spread way out. Email Jean Dodds (she will return your email) and see what she says. Your pup is GORGEOUS. Oh, and don't worry about the mutt thing- I don't even have a BC, I have Kelpies (and dubious ones at that)....But, some day when someone I know has a litter, and it is a tri- heavily ticked, male, who has the sunny disposition of the father, and the focus and drive of the mother, then I will have my BC pup. I already have a name and everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Kim, Don't worry about your pup being a mix; it makes no difference to us. Dogs can have reactions to vaccinations; we have 2 that reacted to a combo vaccine as pups. One was probably bad enough to be considered anaphylactic shock. We suspect it was the vaccine prep (unique to each manufacturer) since there were no reactions from either when we switch to a different manufacturer. Your vet is your best help in this situation. If you're happy with how closly your vet is working with you on this problem stick with him/her; if you're not happy find a new vet asap. Please keep us posted. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DixiesDad Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I don't have any first hand medical knowledge to share with you on this, but the relationship of vaccinations to seizures has been discussed before. You might try the search option with seizure and vacinnations as the topic. Best wishes to Misty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Misty is a sweet looking pup. I can't help either with the vaccination issues. Hopefully someone else with experience can. I hope Misty is alright. Please let us know how she is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat W. Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hey my first bc type dog was a shep/bc mix a wonderful dog, nothing at all wrong with mixes. I certainly hope that your little girl recovers fully from her rocky start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Wow, your post was only up an hour! I know you're worried, but nobody here snubs anyone for having a mix. I have several. Anyway, I'm hoping that it was just a reaction to the vaccines. I've heard of people who have dogs that had a seizure or two, and then never had another. I just don't think there's anything anyone here could tell you that will help more that what your vet will say. I wouldn't give her another vaccine until throughly researching it, talking it over with your vet and possibly Dr. Dodds herself. Best of luck, and despite your calling her a mutt, I think she's gorgeous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 I don't know if this will be any help. I wish I would have read this at home because I do have a book with the name of a vaccination that could possibly(and has) killed collie type dogs. It is a heartworm vaccination and the general rule of thumb for this vaccine was "white feet, don't treat". If no one reads this and knows what I am talking about, I will look it up and let you know the name of it when I get home. I can't say that's the reason, but it just poped into my head with your vaccination concerns. oh, and Daisy Duke is a mutt too! julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Julie, there is not a heartworm vaccination. What you are thinking of is the so called collie sensitivity to ivermectin, which is a heartworm preventative. However, research hasn't really showed it to be a big concern: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=4966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Julie, there is not a heartworm vaccination. What you are thinking of is the so called collie sensitivity to ivermectin, which is a heartworm preventative. However, research hasn't really showed it to be a big concern: She may be referring to the 6 month shot for heartworm preventative, about which I believe there were concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yes, could be. That was Proheart 6, I think. I didn't realize it was still on the market? But anyway, the "white feet, don't treat" for some reason made me think ivermectin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Julie, there is not a heartworm vaccination. What you are thinking of is the so called collie sensitivity to ivermectin, which is a heartworm preventative. However, research hasn't really showed it to be a big concern: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=4966 Yes, now that I've had a chance to look it up, it was ivermectin. It just warns that collies can be sensitive to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris L. Christine Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 This is what I do know for sure. She was vaccinated with a "combo" shot and wormed before we picked her up on the 27th. From what research I have done the shot and/or the wormer could have something to do with the seizures, even though our vet doesn't think so. If the shot was the culprit of the seizures is there a chance that she will seize again when she recieves another vaccination? Kim, how scary for you. Seizures are one of the documented adverse reactions to vaccination. Our Butter suffered severe seizures after the last of his puppyhood rabies vaccinations -- it looked like his head had been placed on a paint mixing machine and turned on high, we all thought his eyes would pop out of his head. They were so bad we couldn't stand to look at him. Giving your pup more than one vaccination at a time does increase the risk of an adverse reaction as well as increase the chance that the vaccines will interfere with each other resulting in neutralization or negating the immunolocial response (see the quote below from the AAHA Guidelines). Everything that I have read indicates that it is best to give vaccinations separately after the age of 16 weeks with a 2-3 week spacing between. Personally, I would get a 2nd opinion from a homeopathic/holistic veterinarian. It has been my experience that they are more enlightened on these issues -- you can do an online search to find one near you at these links American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association http://www.holisticvetlist.com/, Academy of Veterinary Homeopathy http://www.theavh.org/referral/index.php . Good luck with your little one. Kris On Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety, it states that: "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likeli-hood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and opti-mal immune responses are sought. " Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm . The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf . Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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