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So what happened to Orson?


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For $300 he could have consulted with a board certified animal behaviorist and vet. For under $1000 he could have also done blood tests, EEGs, radiographs, etc. It's the very least a responsible person would have done.

 

I have friends with extremely aggressive BCs who live on farms and they have no problem keeping their dogs out of trouble.

 

Why do people keep giving him dogs?

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That's appalling. How hard is it to keep strangers away from your dog?? Even on a farm. $6000 to physically check out the dog?? And I'm with others, no where does he mention consulting a behaviorist.

 

I am stuck with a dog that I fear some of the times, who has bit ME personally, whom I have never really liked or bonded to, and I am going to extreme lengths to help this dog, to work with him, to give him a good life. I am doing far more than what Katz even considered for what he claims is his heart dog. That is disgusting. Melanie is right - he has no idea what that really means.

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How hard is it to keep strangers away from your dog??
Exactly. When people come to my house and I am wary of Speedy coming into contact with them, I put him in my bedroom and close the door. It does the job quite nicely.

 

What's with the "need" to build a special kennel to keep people away from the dog?

 

I would love for someone to be able to take one of his problem dogs and rehabilitate them.
Amen!
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I actually DID send a letter to his publisher. I doubt there will be any response - after all, Katz is a money-maker for them - but I just couldn't stand it. I keep wondering how many hundreds of thousands of dollars Orson made for him, and yet he wouldn't deign to spend a few hundred on the dog to get basic workup and behavioral consult. He didn't even bother to get a second opinion from a general pracitce vet. (FWIW, in my expereince, it's very rarely necessary to get CT or MRI done to diagnose behavioral issues in dogs... but he didn't even bother to take the lesser steps to find out if that was even necessary. What a way to repay a dog who gave his all for this unworthy man.)

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Originally posted by Sue R:

Perhaps one reason for his popularity is that his ignorance, selfishness, and whininess are satisfying and justifying to legions of readers who possess the same attributes when it comes to their relations with their companion animals...

There are times that I read something and say "darn, I wish I had thought to say that" and this is just one of those times! There can be no other explanation of the popularity of this innane person.

 

Maria

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these posts have really changed my feeling towards Katz. In the past I thought most of you were too hard on him. For him to have put Orson down like he did is a crying shame. I'm wondering now if Katz is playing with a full deck. One of my relatives is Bipolar. His opinions and thoughts change all the time.

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Last night after I posted I told my husband about this and he was as disgusted as I was. I sent a very pointed email to Katz, outlining the steps he missed, etc.

 

I won't get an answer and the man won't change but I certainly feel better having given his inbox a piece of my mind.

 

Allie + Tess & Kipp

http://weebordercollie.com

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I've read a few of Katz's books and for the most part have enjoyed them. I certainly don't agree with all of his training methods and never mistook his books as a trainging guide. I agree that Jon still had other options and wish he would have explored them. However, I understand (but don't necessarily agree with) that he sees dogs in a different way. I think he has the belief that once a dog cannot be a dog anymore then he should be put down.

 

I donn't know what to think about Katz anymore but I do believe that he does have a geniune love for his animals.

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I think he has the belief that once a dog cannot be a dog anymore then he should be put down.

 

And how could Orson with 110 acres, not be a dog anymore? We live in the city with a city-sized fenced lot. We have an aggressive BC who has never bitten anyone (except my husband, who admits it was entirely his fault) and my nephew's white shepherd who was dumb enough to get in her face when she was showing her teeth at him. And she can be a dog; just not at the dog beach, agilty events, petfood warehouses etc.

Barb S

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Solo is a dog every single day.

 

He hunts gophers in the park. He crashes into the waves at the beach. He plays at agility. He works sheep. He cuddles with me on the bed and makes Chewbacca noises when he wants his chest rubbed. He loves to pull stuffing out of toys and doesn't consider broccoli to be food. His favorite toy is Ball. And it can't just be any ball, it has to be Ball, which means a racquetball. Solo has opinions, obsessions, hobbies, and soft, furry ears.

 

The most expensive certified veterinary behaviorist on the planet would have cost Katz maybe $300, and that's for an appointment that in my experience lasts hours, involves tons of observation, discussion and advice, often includes at least a preliminary medical workup (at Solo's first appointment, his vitals were checked and a blood sample was taken), results in a detailed treatment plan including behavioral modification exercises and a prescription for behavioral meds if warranted, and allows for many many follow-up phone calls and/or emails for ongoing support.

 

But Orson wasn't worth that to Katz. I think he just didn't want to deal with it anymore. If Orson was truly his heart's dog, Katz would have at least tried. No, it was easier to kill him. Something is really missing in that man. I couldn't possibly be more disgusted.

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Maybe he didn't go to a behaviour expert because he already is one himself? :rolleyes:

If the self-appointed dog experts round here are anything to go by, these types don't go to behaviourists because they know all the reasons already, and what to make of them (ie that the dog is "violating the fundamental contract between humans and canines", for xxxx's sake :mad: ).

And because they might be told it's all their own fault, of course.

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I rescued a screwed up bc/acd and kept her for years. She was my most favourite dog ever and a lawsuit waiting to happen. I did not put her in situations that were dangerous and NEVER let my guard down with her and people. Katz could have done it for Orson but it was inconvenient to him.

Lazy B*****d. He does exploit dogs. But he's convinced himself of the moral superiority of his choice. He is a phony and a hypocrite. Sandra, you said it when you called that article a big pile of horseshit.

He does seem to be the one thing on the boards we can all agree on, though.

 

muddy

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Heh. It's interesting to read this thread. A few years ago, I criticized Katz's treatment of Orson, then Devon, that is described in "A Dog Year" and the opinions were pretty much 50-50 for and against him.

 

Reading between the lines of the Slate.com article, here's what I see. Katz claims to be thinking about the dog's quality of life -- doesn't want to lock him up in a "prison," or subject him to lots of tests. What's really going on is that he isn't willing to alter his lifestyle to deal with the dog's problems. He pays little attention to his dogs, from what I can tell. He talks about letting Rose have a few hours on her own to "get to know the sheep." He seems to think that putting a dog in a kennel is worse than a death sentence -- that the dog would have to be there 24/7.

 

Now I'm sure that Katz has a more active social life than I do. Some single-celled organisms do. But it would seem to me that it wouldn't be too hard to simply keep the dog out of harm's way when visitors were around. Sure it requires thought, effort, and constant vigilance. All good management of dogs -- agressive or not -- imposes the same burden on the owner, really. Just with an agressive dog the margin of error is smaller or non-existant.

 

And of course, Katz has his traveling obligations. Book tours, speaking engagements, film deals. He couldn't just leave Orson behind, could he? He makes a big deal about the fact that he brings his dogs with him to the public radio studios at WAMC in Albany, NY when he does his monthly call-in show.

 

Yes, keeping Orson alive would have required effort, a change in human behavior, and some expense. It would have been quite inconvenient, and there would have been an element of risk.

 

But having said all that, I do think there are times when the best thing that one can do for a dog is to release it from its mental anguish and allow it to have some peace. I have no way of knowing if that's where Orson was; it certainly doesn't sound like it from Katz's article.

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I never read any of Katz's stuff. I really didn't want to after hearing the first interview on NPR several years ago. It was then that I came to the conclusion that (in my opinion), he was a windbag, really into himself, and in spite of what he said, didn't know s--t from shinola when it came to dogs.

 

Maybe to seek out an accredited behaviorist, he would have taken the risk of being told of his short comings, the mistakes HE made which contributed to Orson's behavior. Since -- and this is purely speculation on my part --- the man is a legend in his own mind--- any sort of criticism is threatening. Otherwise, he might have swallowed his ego and sought help from people who could have helped him, even though the answers he might have gotten, he wouldn't have liked.

 

But anyone in dogs, especially those in rescue, has heard this in different forms before. If you really want to get rid of a dog, any excuse will do. Efforts to help are met with other excuses why "it won't work". Yeh, Katz is like the average Joe Blow, only with public access and more money.

 

Several times I started a thread here, "the dog that bit me". Each time I backed out of posting it. This might be a good time to mention Sam, the dog that bit me a year ago, laying open my hand, and I wound up in the hospital for a couple of days in IV's for cellulitis.

 

I had posted about that here. Sam was a rescue. I didn't really have the space for a dog that couldn't be adopted out, since now he has a bite history. I had made the decision to put him down. The morning of the euthansia, I called my vet and cancelled. I began working with Sam, taking him down to the most basic level (as in "you are lower than dirt in this house"). Long story, but my own dogs, Flick, Maggie, Joe, Sea and Tam played an instrumental role in Sam's "restructuring". For weeks, after working all day, I'd take Sam into the bathroom, lock the door, and I would feed him by hand.

 

Fast forward to now, Sam is incredibly bright, sometimes a pain in the ass, but he trusts me now. And that trust is evident in his eyes, in his body language. Technically, I still cannot adopt him out. And I doubt that the "right" person will ever come along, so Sam will more than likely be with me to stay. Sam is still a work in progress, probably always will be. And its not as though I'm someone with a public image to keep up, but somehow I think the trust I now see in Sam's eyes, the smile he has when he is happy or mischievious, has to be worth far more than my image to anyone.

 

BTW, thousands of dollars spent on testing, sort of takes the onus off of Katz, in the public's eye, and therefore he can absolve himself from any true responsibility. He made reference to some families who live in poverty nearby. (I've had similar excuses thrown at me by relatives). I wonder if now that Orson is gone, that he is spending the money he once did on Orson to help out those families. Or was that just lip service -- another excuse. (As long as there are children dying of hunger throughout the world, this will remain an excuse for those like Katz).

 

BTW, I think I've really taken a liking to Sam. :0))

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Ok, I've finally had time to go thru some of the links that have been posted at this site about Katz. I must say that after careful study I've changed my opinion. Forget civility. The man has outlived his usefulness to society by causing more damage than good and deserves to be put to sleep by a vet more compassionate than he was to Orson.

 

I know its wrong to say stuff like that. Its against my religion and personal philosophy but frankly I can't understand how he can look at an eight year old dog BC and think of him as at the end of his life. ARRRGGGGHHHH!

 

My first BC, Willy, was 12 when I put him down after his back went out and he couldn't walk. A week before that he was running with me, and pulling like a sled dog, like he had for the ten years since I got him from the shelter. Putting Willy to sleep was to me the right thing to do rather than let the best four legged friend I've ever had, the one who stuck with me when my ex didn't, suffer like he did for that last week. I told the vet I'd carry him every day if he might get better or to a point where he didn't hurt but she said things were only going to get worse.

 

Damit, most dogs I've had would step in front of death itself for their loyalty to me. And I would would be honored to do the same for them in a hearbeat. For Katz to give up on this dog he claims he held so dear just makes me angry.

 

Recently, we just rescued an eight year old BC from the Boulder Humane Society. I wanted an older mature dog to help with some ideas I had about modeling behavior to the headstrong BC teenager I have. Ellie, that eight year old, was given up by her old family because of all sorts of serious anxiety destruction issues. All she's done since we got her has been to be a perfect little sweetheart. Yeah, she gets scared at thunder but she's well behaved. In three months I'm just head over heels in love with this sweet older girl. And the teenager has come around so much between the two of us working on her. An eight year old BC... too old to live in Katz's opinion. No usefulness? My %$#!

 

Sorry folks, I've just ranted up a storm. But I assure you all that Katz will never see a dime from my family! (Time to throw a frisbee around...) Arrrggghhh!

-jay

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I already said what I think of this guy on the other post. It makes me so d**n made that he would take it into his own hands to just give up on that poor dog. I would do anything for the dogs we have now. No matter what it was. I can't believe someone like him would ever own a dog. Why, and how could you ever get a dog just to make money then when you have one little problem, kill him. I could never do that to any animal. How heart less can someone get? I hate that guy. Sorry I couldn't help but say it. No one should ever forgive him for that.

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I think it's true that none of us is in a position to decide what to do with another person's dog, so the decision ultimately rests with Mr. Katz, whether we like it or not. However, my problem with this is the apparent hypocricy of saying on the one hand that Orson is his soul-mate dog, his dog of a lifetime, and on the other, him bailing out on the dog without the basic step of seeing a veterinary behaviorist. Likewise the schism between him having profited GREATLY off of Orson, while at the same time justifying euth'ing the dog because of expense - expense which he misrepresents, IMO. That seems disingenuous to me, and it bothers me that he CONTINUES to profit - off the dog's death, now, instead of his life, but he profits none the less off the mistakes he perpetrated upon this unfortunate animal. Moreover, since he has developed such an undeserved following, I will, unfortunately, be almost certain to have to undo what he has done, in my professinal life. But I can only undo it (or potentially undo it) for those few people who cross my path. There are a lot more out there who will blindly follow what this self-invented "guru" has set down, simply because they know no better and Katz has set himself up as an expert, without credentials or the apparent sense God gave a goose.

 

But perhaps that's just me.

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>

 

Well, I haven't read the book -- I don't really think I can bring myself to read another Katz book, even for purposes of responding to people who say, "How can you say that when you haven't even read the book?" -- so I don't know the details of the bites. But even if it's an enormous problem, it has an easy solution. Keep the dog on the farm and put him up when visitors come. What's so hard about that for a sensitive guy who supposedly rejoices in solitude and communion with his dogs? It's not the only option, of course, but it's one even a terminal cheapskate could do if he wanted to.

 

What's most characteristic of Katz is the intellectual dishonesty -- in an article that oozes intellectual dishonesty throughout -- which keeps that option off his list of "four choices."

 

But I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot about how honest Katz is -- as well as caring, courageous, loving, open and wise -- for not shrinking from what his moral values demanded and for sharing his pain with us. Turns out it's not hard to fool a lot of the people all of the time, and profit by it, no matter what you do.

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I heard the descriptions of the bites in his radio interview with Diane Rhem. There were at least three bites: a UPS driver, a child, and person who works for Katz on the farm. This last one was the one whose throat was lacerated. The child's shirt was ripped (Orson missed the target) and I'm not sure what happened with the UPS driver.

 

My stepson was bitten on the face by an Akita without provocation. It was the dog's third bite that I know of. Without quick reactions, Jason might very well have had the side of his throat laid bare. Like Katz, the owners didn't seem to be able to control the dog. Couldn't or wouldn't; it didn't matter. The dog was destroyed.

 

The big difference between Katz and my neighbors was that my neighbors knew they were killing the dog because they had failed it. They were heartbroken. But they were faced with an ultimatum: get rid of the dog by date certain or have their homeowner's insurance canceled. No insurance, mortgage gets called.

 

Katz has constructed a world in which he is blameless; Orson's death was a bad outcome, but one that he believes he did everything he could to avoid. While I still won't judge whether what he did was right or wrong, I will make this judgment. He let Orson down, and he doesn't admit it.

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When I saw the reference to WAMC (out of Albany, NY), I had to check it out since I used to enjoy this station when we lived in Cooperstown. I found this quote:

 

WAMC's Vox Pop "Dog Talk" segment received The Communicator Awards Honorable Mention in the "Special Interest Talk Show" category. "Dog Talk" is a popular monthly segment featured on WAMC's Vox Pop daily call-in program. Host Joe Donahue converses with dog expert, Jon Katz, author of numerous publications including "The Dogs of Bedlam Farm" and "Katz on Dogs".
This is the major problem with Katz, in my opinion. This guy accepts and wears the title of "expert". Is it no wonder people can't control their dogs?

 

Kim

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