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Chianne
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I am experienced border collie handler and trainer, but not in herding although I have attended Jack Knox and Lyle Lad clinics. I have 3 border collies, two of which compete in canine sports. I clicker trained those dogs.

 

I have a new puppy who is 10 weeks old. She comes from good imported herding lines. Since I would like to focus my attention herding with this pup I would like some advise from experienced people who trial on what type of training they do with a puppy who they intend to trial with, hopefully someday. I don't plan to start any type of training involving sheep until spring.

 

My question is, other then the basics, what should I teach this pup?

 

I have also heard that playing fetch, clicker training, training her to focus on me and doing those type of things with her will be a determent to herding, is this true?

 

Do any of you have a dog, that trials successfully, that also competes in other sports?

 

Thanks for your help.

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I can't answer your last question, but I can say that I raise a pup to be a pup, not a future worker. That is, I don't worry that the pup learns to tug, or plays fetch, or focuses on me, or plays with my other dogs. I think they deserve to just be pups. I do teach them how to behave in the world, to take a correction and not think it's the end of the world, and to have basic manners. My belief is that a well-bred working pup should respond to its genetics at the appropriate time and turn on to sheep (with perhaps some exceptions resulting from very poor raising practices) when they are ready, and what you do (generally) WRT training, play, etc., shouldn't make a huge difference.

 

That said, I don't clicker train and I don't train my pups to focus on me exclusively. I do pay them a lot of attention and I do expect them to focus on and respond to me, but not necessarily slavishly (on the focusing part anyway). I expect them to come when called, to sit or lie down when asked, to not chase the chickens, to not harrass sheep through the fence, and to stop what they are doing if I tell them to. Beyond that, it's pretty much laissez-faire around here.

 

J.

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I have a dog who runs in agility at a Masters level and competes in Open as a sheepdog. I did not, however, train him from a pup. He was purchased as a yearling, then trained and trialled by my friend for his Nursery year. I didn't start him in agility until he was 3.

 

His agility training was done almost exclusively through clicker training, even though he had no experience with clicker training before he came to live with me. It took him about 1 session to figure out that click = get paid, and he immediately started offering behaviours.

 

What I have seen from dogs that were started in agility, and then tried out the herding, is the following (and these are just my observations, though some of my friends who offer herding lessons have seen about the same):

 

  • Agility dogs tend to stare at their handler, especially if not sure what to do. They also run back and hand-target or return to heel, or some other kind of behaviour that has been rewarded heavily, if they're not sure what to do.
  • When dogs are released to the sheep, they tend to EXPLODE forward, like they're being released from a startline stay. This is not helpful on sheep. :)
  • Some sport trained dogs do not seem to know what to do with pressure, and even asking them to change direction around the sheep seems to shut them down.
  • Sport dogs enjoy the adrenaline of chasing the sheep when the sheep are on the run, but when things slow down, they lose interest.

Again, these are just my observations, your mileage may vary. And in the interest of full disclosure, I am not a herding trainer, but I will, from time to time, take a friend's dog out to see sheep.

 

When I get my next dog, I will do the exact same as I did with Rex: herding first, and then once he's fairly proficient (can get around an Open course) I will start the agility training. Obviously, the downside is that my 'baby dog' was almost 4 before he started trialling, but he's doing ok, he's a few Qs away from his ATChC, he earned a bye to Cynosports in Steeplechase this year, and he was part of the NW Regional DAM Championship team.

 

Oh, and your pup is gorgeous!! :wub:

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Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

 

Many/most new sheepdoggers come out of agility &/or "herding". Many learned to train using a clicker and speak that dialect. Although sheepdog training methods have evolved (the training ring, stick and plastic whistle were all invented since 1960), their core hasn't changed since the earliest training guides (1910?) and I suspect modern training would be familiar to Samuel Pepy's shepherd (1665).

 

Sheepdoggers work with the sheepdog's unique genetics while clicker trainers (claim to) work with any mammal. Big difference both theoretically and culturally.

 

Fortunately, these genetics don't kick in until puberty - until then a sheepdog puppy is just a puppy. I agree with Julie's "I think they deserve to just be pups. I do teach them how to behave in the world, to take a correction and not think it's the end of the world, and to have basic manners.'

 

Do notice the word "correction": at some point in his life, hundreds of yards from you, your sheepdog will be told "No. That's not what I meant. Do something that your experience and genetics say you must not do." And the sheepdog must do as bid without negotiation. That's a correction - the very thing that clicker training is designed to avoid.

 

Can you tell your pup "no"? Can you mean what you say?

 

I respectfully disagree with Julie about "fetch" and "tug". Even before sheepdog pup's sheepy genetics kick in, they are genetically biddable and obsessive. I've seen "ball crazy" and "tug crazy" Border Collies and would no more play fetch or tug with a pup than I'd invite them to chase the dot of a laser pointer.

 

This promises to be an illuminating discussion and I hope others with Ms. Airbear's level of experience and insight can contribute.

 

Donald McCaig

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Donald,

How dare you disagree with me! :D

 

Seriously, though, and to clarify, I think it's possible to play with a pup and not let that turn into obsessive behavior. By this I mean that play is just that, not a reward for an offered behavior or anything similar. If pup brings a toy and I don't feel like playing, we don't play. It's all a matter of degree. To me it's part of the "let a pup be a pup" philosophy. Puppies play, and since I want to raise a working dog who sees me as a partner, part of the puppy's play can involve me, and it may be tug or fetch, but never to the degree where an obsession is allowed to set in.

 

FWIW, I've had folks come out for lessons whose dogs were sport dogs first, and I generally concur with what Kristi said above, especially items 1 and 3. I have found that if the dog has any real desire to work sheep, we can get past the looking at the handler issue (mostly), but many of the dogs have no idea how to take a correction, whether it comes from a human or the livestock, and I have to admit that I like nothing less than a dog that keeps wanting to quit over minor stuff (like stepping into its path to ask it to change direction, or asking for a little pace, or a stop, etc.). For that reason, I think Kristi's approach of working dog first, sport dog after makes perfect sense.

 

J.

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I mentioned I went to a Jack Knox clinic. What I didn't mention that I arrived early at the clinic and no one else there yet. So I played a little Disc with my BC. Jack must have been watching from inside the house because the first thing he did when the clinic started was mention it. I don't think he liked it :-(

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Actually Jack's objection was a sheepdog playing catch with a Disc. Which is why I posed the questions here.

 

That border collie, almost 2 years old now has won every major Disc event in all 3 venues and is invited the World Championships in the fall, He has also broken records for the most points in rounds. I am happy that dog is doing so well in Disc but want to herd with this one and don't want to make mistakes.

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I think you're misunderstanding my point. Jack doesn't like play because it puts the dog in a play mindset, which is not appropriate for stockwork. It doesn't matter if one's dog is the best dog on the planet at some other activity; ehen you're starting on stock the dog's focus should be entirely there and not whirling over a disc or other toy.

 

J.

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Well as I said, I play with my dogs, but I don't do it in conjunction with training for work, and I wouldn't do it at a trial or clinic except at the end of the day maybe and only then well away from the camping areas or other dogs. I find that my dogs are generally happy with good long walks, if at all possible, at such events.

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I too come from an agility background and last year we got our first working bred pup for stock work.

 

The way I see it is that when we play fetch or tug we are stimulating our dogs and triggering their prey drive and encouraging them that we are more interesting then the environment. With stock work we are trying to mold that prey drive into a working relationship while making sure they maintain their independent ability for thinking and reacting.

 

So with Timber we played at home, teaching normal play rules, sometimes we play, sometimes not, when we say not now, that means no play and to settle. If he became pushy with wanting to play the toy went away. I like my dogs to have a good settle after play, this takes a while to develop and is a challenge for puppies.

 

As he has begun to mature we have started playing at the farm but only after interaction with stock is over and not before herding lessons. It seems to be working for us. And having played with him hasn't seemed to have an effect on him turning onto stock or working.

 

I haven't done serious agility type focus work or and agility work for that matter and as Kristi said will wait till he's proficient in stock work to begin.

 

Cute pup!

Julie

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I'm a little hard core on the play thing, too. There are lots of toys lying around the house, including balls, but I don't throw them for the dogs. They play with them on their own. Like Julie, I let them be pups, but they absolutely must understand who is in charge, and need to understand a correction. Long walks and romps in pastures seem to suit them just fine. In the house, a quiet game of bitey-face is often ongoing in the evenings.

 

Over the years I've had a few people come out with their dogs to try on stock and bring a ball to throw in between works. I ask them to put the ball in the car. I was taught that we don't throw balls or sticks in the "work environment." I've stuck with that rule for many years.

 

I was at the old Lonestar Futurity some years back and saw someone throwing a Frisbee for their dogs in the parking lot before and after the competition. When those dogs were sent to gather the cattle (not very far, as it was in an indoor arena) and the cattle were very easily seen, the dogs ran out maybe 30 or so yards, and turned at looked at the handler expectantly--as if waiting for the Frisbee. They never did complete the small outrun to gather the stock.

 

I agree with pretty much everything Kristi says.

A

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Perhaps a bit OT, but I've heard a couple of Open handlers complain about spectators (or clinic participants/auditors) who would throw things (balls, sticks, frisbees) for their own dogs before/during a trial or clinic. The specific complaint is that it ramps up dogs who may be entered in the trial/clinic, so that they have trouble focusing on the task at hand.

 

I don't have a lot of experience with the question of training for agility *and* stockwork (certainly nothing first-hand, I've never done agility). But I have noticed a couple of things with several dogs I've seen locally at clinics (or, less often, at trials) who have been trained to do both (typically agility first, then stockwork). First, I've noticed dogs who seem unsure. Their pace is slow. They don't seem to have "fire in their bellies" on their outruns. They hesitate, and often stop and look back at their handlers while on the field, without any "stop" signal having been given. When I ask, it always seems that they started as an agility dog. Second, I see handlers using a lot of hand gestures. Perhaps that feeds on the dogs' hesitation, and looking to the handlers for guidance. At present, I'm trying to emphasize voice commands (hopefully instilling "good listening skills") over hand signals in my pup.

 

As with any generalization, I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule. I've just been struck by how often this sort of hesitant, mechanical behavior seems to be the case when I pick out a dog that seems to lack that "je ne sais quoi" while doing stockwork. So if you have a dog who you feel is the exception, please chime in!

 

I did have a conversation recently with the Open handler I train with. I'd just finished reading Bobbie Anderson's "Building Blocks for Performance" book. While I found many parts I liked, there were also parts I had reservations about. My mentor (who was good friends with Bobbie, and who used to train in obedience herself) told me that it was designed for people who trained for obedience; that obedience was inherently boring for dogs; that you needed to do this to make obedience FUN for dogs; but that the parts of it I had reservations about really shouldn't be necessary for working Border collies, as it should be in their blood to live to do stockwork. (But she's never done agility).

 

I'd go with Kristi's advice, as she's had success in both venues. (Whereas I'm a "not even novice" in stockwork, and have never even been to an agility trial, let alone trained a dog in it).

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Thanks for all the good advise so far! I posed this question because I want to know what will work best for her.

 

I am also reading Bobbie Andersons' book, Building Blocks for the Performance Pup. I was advised to read it before I got Meg, my pup from herding people. They said she was successful at herding and Obedience with her BC.

 

Meg has some nice bloodlines for herding and I hope we eventually train and trial.

 

I ordered this DVD today to learn more.

First Steps in Border Collie Sheepdog Training At last! A sheepdog training DVD that's specially for beginners who want to train their very first sheepdog. This programme will give you more information on training a sheepdog than any other on DVD.

dvd_herding_first_steps_in_border_collie

Presented by Andy Nickless, who makes his living from training sheepdogs as well as running sheepdog training classes in Worcestershire, England, this 2xDVD set demonstrates not only how to approach sheepdog training, but what to do when things go wrong (as they will for even the best sheepdog trainers).

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Yes! Fiona is a much better example than me! :) She is running Fen (and her other dog, Mirk) at Belle Grove, then driving to Tennessee to compete at Cynosports (agility). Rex and I bow to her. In fact, Rex sponsored Fen for this year's finals, so in awe is he of her dual-sport prowess. :D

 

I will ask her what she trains first.

 

I don't know what she does first/how she goes about it, but I thought I'd mention Fiona Robertson of Creekside Border Collies, she has really nice agility and sheepdog trial dogs, and they do both.

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"But I have noticed a couple of things with several dogs I've seen locally at clinics (or, less often, at trials) who have been trained to do both (typically agility first, then stockwork). First, I've noticed dogs who seem unsure. Their pace is slow. They don't seem to have "fire in their bellies" on their outruns. They hesitate, and often stop and look back at their handlers while on the field, without any "stop" signal having been given."

 

While I would certainly think that learning agility first could lead to some of these behaviors, I also wonder if there might not be a genetic component to this--that is, if the dogs who demonstrate this behavior might be bred for sports, and therefore not bred for the caliber of work some of us might expect. I would think that a really well bred working dog would/could overcome some of this in the presence of stock.

 

Just a thought...

A

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"But I have noticed a couple of things with several dogs I've seen locally at clinics (or, less often, at trials) who have been trained to do both (typically agility first, then stockwork). First, I've noticed dogs who seem unsure. Their pace is slow. They don't seem to have "fire in their bellies" on their outruns. They hesitate, and often stop and look back at their handlers while on the field, without any "stop" signal having been given."

 

While I would certainly think that learning agility first could lead to some of these behaviors, I also wonder if there might not be a genetic component to this--that is, if the dogs who demonstrate this behavior might be bred for sports, and therefore not bred for the caliber of work some of us might expect. I would think that a really well bred working dog would/could overcome some of this in the presence of stock.

 

Just a thought...

A

 

Absolutely, entirely possible. Most such I've seen have either been rescues, or else known "sporter collies". There's really no way of knowing how much of their behavior is nature, and how much "nurture" (training).

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Dear Woudbe Sheepdoggers,

 

I don't care if my pups play with each other and without my encouragement play seems to die out naturally as they mature.

I do think many/most pet owners wildly overvalue dog play. I've heard the complaint "My Border Collie won't play with other dogs!"

 

So?

 

Donald McCaig

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Timely question. My new puppy is now 1 week old.

 

Like others here I don't "play" with my puppy or my grown dogs for that matter. We do "hang" out together and they tag along while I do chores.

 

Back to puppy. When puppy arrives the pup will have toys to play with but I won't play with him. There will be no "formal" obedience. As he hangs with the older dogs and me he will just naturally come to understand sit, lie down, stay, come. He will also come to understand a correction.

 

He will learn house rules and how well mannered dogs behave.

 

Of course we will share snuggles and puppy kisses.

 

I feel so many dogs nowadays are totally ramped up by owners thinking that they always have to be playing or exercising their dogs.

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I was told by pretty much every sheepdog trainer I went to that I should avoid the two sports I was looking forward to, with Lady: competitive Obedience and Agility. Lady comes from entirely working backgrounds and none of her relatives are "sporter collies", but ever since the wee age of 4 weeks she has been like a pot of glue attached and hanging on to every word from humans. I did set out originally to have her for dog sports, but at six months we had a litter reunion at a sheep farm to test the dogs' instincts, and I never looked back. I was hooked on sheepdog training.

 

I think there is merit in keeping a dog like this away from sports where their attention is to be on you at all times. Lady would probably have done marvellously at comp. obedience as it has been an uphill struggle to get her to detach her attention from me, and on to the sheep. I am sad that I was basically forced to choose between one domain and the other, definitely, as I know many BCs who can "do it all" - herding in class III (open trials equivalent), competing in continental-level agility and obedience... and here I am with Lady, simply trying to build her independence.

 

For as long as there are BCs who are multi-talented, there will be people with conflicting opinions on the issue. I think it depends from dog to dog, handler to handler. I have continued my obedience and overall clicker training with my corgi instead, and Lady is now just expected to be well-behaved. She doesn't play fantastically with other dogs - as soon as they go into her "bubble" she gets a bit growly - but I don't really care. She'll tell them off then go off like a rocket to chase down her corgi brother, or other errant dogs. As long as she responds to me and doesn't tear up the house, I'm satisfied. It's her work on the field that I am wholly concerned about and nothing else, now.

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What is nurture training?

 

You will often hear of nurture training from nature vs. nurture. Meaning is it in the animals nature, genetic makeup to be this way/have this behavior or has a behavior been nurtured in it's environment and therefore delevoped.

 

So I believe what is being brought up here is that often rescue dogs or sport trained/bred dogs are brought to stockwork later in life, as a secondary training. So it is unknown that some of the issues Kristi and other's have outlined are there because of the agility or sport training that has been done. Or if those behaviors are there because of their breeding or just who they are as a specific dog.

 

You hear a lot of these discussion with aggressive dogs. Was the dog born with aggressive tendencies or was it poor raised or abused to develop aggressive behaviors.

 

Or atleast this is what I'm assuming Alchemist means.

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