Jump to content
BC Boards

Help with riding in car


Recommended Posts

First, I just want to say thank you to all members on this forum. I've already learned so many tips and tricks for working with this amazing breed, and look forward to continual learning.

 

My dog, Finn, is a 1 year old border collie. I've had him since he was 8 weeks old. I am a first time border collie owner, and our journey together thus far has been filled with lots of learning on both ends. Finn's grown into a polite, friendly, and happy dog, and I've learned so much about how to interact with and motivate him in a constructive way.

 

While I've been able to successfully coach Finn through many characteristic Border Collie-isms (pulling like a maniac on the leash, lunging at cars while walking, etc.), I'm having limited success in helping him learn how to ride calmly in the car. I've looked through the forum regarding this topic, since I know I'm not the first to have this issue, but am hoping for some additional input.

 

The situation:

Up until about 7 months, Finn rode happily in the car, laying quietly in the back seat. Around 7 months, he began to notice stuff out the window. He transitioned to sitting and staring intently ("trance" mode), but still being quiet. This soon progressed to growling at certain objects as they approached, particularly highway/freeway signs (the big ones suspended overhead that indicate exits).

 

In hindsight, I realize that this behavior should have been immediately addressed. Chalk that one up to being a novice border collie owner.

 

His obsession with street signs then advanced to barking madly at them and racing from side to side in the back seat to make sure he didn't miss a single one. While in this aroused state, he was mentally unreachable - he didn't respond to any commands that are usually fairly solid (down, sit) and wouldn't even sniff at treats (kibble, ham). Since this behavior is distracting and dangerous to the driver, and obviously distressing to Finn, it was time (belatedly) to intervene.

 

My first attempt was to restrict his movement with a harness/seatbelt, and to put shades over the window to reduce visual stimuli. No luck - he repeatedly tore the shade down, and shifted from occasional barking to continual loud/scared barking and "screaming". I think this was because he didn't like the way the seatbelt was holding him, but not sure.

 

So I moved on to a covered crate, both to restrict his movement and to restrict what he can see outside. He uses a crate for sleeping at home, and shows no hesitation to jump in the car crate. We've been working through a desensitization process - getting in and out of the crate with lots of treats, getting treats while the car is parked but running, and if still calm, taking short trips to fun places (park, trails, beach, etc.) with treats/praise delivered when he is being quiet (I'm using a tube to roll treats to him as I drive). I also have his favorite toy in the crate to give him a chewing option.

 

He doesn't whine at all while the car is parked but running, but often begins a high whine when we start to move. We've been working on this about a week, with limited progress. We go from fine and calm when parked/car running, to agitated and whining as soon as the car starts to move.

 

Any tips on how to help us through this desensitization process? I know desensitization takes time, so maybe it's just a matter of continuing to work on it every single day. Open to any and all suggestions.

 

Thank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect you're probably right about having to be patient and keep working on it because he's had quite a while to self-reward for the behaviors.

 

Honestly, to me it sounds like you're on the right track. It can often take longer to unlearn an ingrained behavior like this than it took for it to become habitual in the first place.

 

If you live on a quiet street or can get to one quickly, I'd suggest stopping as soon as he starts to whine, then rewarding him for being quiet. It'll mean a lot of starts and starts, but it's the same principle as stopping every time a dog pulls on a leash when you're walking.

 

Best wishes. It's hard being patient waiting for the little bits of progress. I hope someone might have better ideas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interrupt the behavior chain waaaay before you think it starts. Work in very, very thin slices of behaviors. Start with putting him in the car, taking him out of the car immediately. The sight of the car does NOT mean he's going for a ride. Do this for a while - several days. You want him to be bored with the idea of getting in the car.

 

Next step, put him in car, you sit in drivers seat. get out, get him out, go back inside. Nothing to see here.

 

Next step, when he's calm for a minute or so while you are both sitting quietly in the car, turn the car on. Turn off immediately. Get out, get him out. Repeat.

 

Add very, very discrete steps in the whole process. Very slowly.

 

Have to go will write more later.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interrupt the behavior chain waaaay before you think it starts. Work in very, very thin slices of behaviors. Start with putting him in the car, taking him out of the car immediately. The sight of the car does NOT mean he's going for a ride. Do this for a while - several days. You want him to be bored with the idea of getting in the car.

 

Next step, put him in car, you sit in drivers seat. get out, get him out, go back inside. Nothing to see here.

 

Next step, when he's calm for a minute or so while you are both sitting quietly in the car, turn the car on. Turn off immediately. Get out, get him out. Repeat.

 

Add very, very discrete steps in the whole process. Very slowly.

 

Have to go will write more later.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

This.

 

Also, make sure he is in a calm state before you put him in the car regardless if it is a training exercise or going for an actual ride. Putting him in the car in an excited state is always a bad way to start. So, if he is calm before going in the car, you will have a better chance at success.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you're doing a great job. All the things I'd recommend you mentioned in your first post :D

 

The advice you've gotten is great as well. The only thing I'd have to add is: when you constructively work on his problem by putting him in the crate, driving a bit, and taking him out again, this could be rewarding bad behaviour. I'd make really sure you don't go in to this cycle: in the crate - calm behaviour - drive - little whine / indicator that this is the limit - stop driving or take him out of the crate. That would be the wrong way to go about it. If his whining starts, you probably shouldn't react to it instantly and drive a bit longer, stop somewhere after a minute or two, and wait for the whining to stop before you take him out. Even if that takes half an hour.

 

Have you tried filling a kong with lots of good stuff? Peanut butter, pieces of chicken etc. Put him in his crate inside the car, give him that kong, wait a good 5 minutes while he is busy emptying it, and then start driving a bit. If after ten seconds there is no whine, stop, wait another few minutes, repeat. And alway stop on a win! If you have success but think it will go wrong the second time. Just stop, and pick it up the next day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will agree with the advice given by urge to herd, and will respectfully disagree with what Dutch Border Fan says. If he starts to whine you have probably gone too fast. And, if you did as is suggested above, and give him more time in the car while whining you would be giving him lots more time to self-reward by whining, which is the opposite of what you want to do. I don't get the impression that getting out of the car is a reward for this dog - quite the opposite. He doesn't sound afraid, but rather over-stimulated and very excited by what is outside the car window. This is behavior you want to stop before it happens, not reward by giving more time for it.

 

As urge to herd says, you need to make getting into the car boring and routine. It may be a long while - months - before you can take him for a ride and give him a peek outside the covered crate. this kind of thing, especially since you didn't interrupt the behavior early on, takes a lot of time and patience. But you are on the right track ow, and it is always a learning curve. I made similar mistakes with my first training efforts - things that seem so obvious to me now that I just bang my head when I think of them. You have come to the best place for advice. Stick around - lots of very knowledgeable people here.

Welcome to the BC boards!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Car Training, Part 2:

 

Yes, as Laura and D'Elle say, going too fast with such a project often winds up making the issue worse and taking much, much longer to eradicate. With a less motion-sensitive breed or individual dog, you can pick up the pace a bit. With your boy already going over the edge, I'd go even slower.

 

So, more steps to try:

Turn on car with him in the house. Turn car off. Go inside. Ignore Finn - ho hum, life as usual, boring as all get out.

Take Finn out on leash, walk around car, go inside. Release him from leash, ignore.

Take Finn out on leash, have a friend turn car on, walk Finn around car, go inside. Ignore.

 

Try putting a blanket over his in-the-house crate. That makes blanket-over-crate in the car routine, rather than another step in the very unpleasant behavior chain.

 

You can also try some DAP - dog appeasing pheromone. It didn't work for my dogs, but the feline version was great for my cats. And there are posters here who have had success with it.

 

In general, keep all your interactions w/Finn low key.

 

Are there any other situations where he has this over-the-top response?

 

It does take a long time. You're creating a calmer dog with each successful rep of a very discrete behavior - and actually re-wiring his little doggy brain. My admittedly amateur understanding of habit change is that a new habit doesn't replace an old habit, it sits on top of it. The old habit is always ready to break through, just waiting for an overwhelming stressor to pop up.

 

I have no formal training, but read and practice voraciously on changing my own habits, and a few friends have asked for help for themselves or their dogs.

 

Best of luck with Finn - please post or pm me if you want help with fine slicing the behavior chain- it appears to be something I'm pretty good at.

 

And you're doing a really, really good job. Many dog owners would have given up - you're teaching Finn a 'life skill' that makes a big difference, IMO.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the advice.

 

DutchBorderfan, I hadn't thought of it like this before, but I like the "stop with a win!" concept for each training step and session. Finn is quite intelligent (he learns tricks in minutes) so it's hard not to push too hard too fast, but I can see how that would leave us both frustrated with behavior modification exercises.

 

Urge to herd and D'Elle, I started yesterday with dialing it wayyyy back like you suggested. We get in the car when Finn is calm, and get back out and go inside, also calmly. Several repetitions throughout the day. By this morning, Finn was giving me what I call the "eye"... i.e., what the heck are we doing? Is this what I'm looking for when you say he should be bored with the activity?

 

Some other follow-up questions:

- Do you suggest giving treats for the in/out and sitting calmly in car sessions? He is VERY food motivated, so not sure if this helps get him to the "bored with the activity" stage if he is receiving food rewards

- Self-rewarding behavior: obviously he was self-rewarding when he was uncrated and running around the back seat. With the crate, though, it's not clear to me if he is afraid or self-rewarding. When crated/covered, Finn was mainly whining and barking when we passed over a rough patch of road or if I accelerated beyond a certain speed. In the limited cases this occurred before I began the desensitization process, he was also gnawing on the sides of his crate or chomping his chew toy. So seemed more like anxiety than self-rewarding. Does this change the steps at all?

 

As far as other over the top behaviors:

- He's pretty nuts at the beach: herds waves obsessively, and pulls very hard on the leash as we approach the beach - when I stop moving, he lays himself flat on the ground and tries to army crawl forward. We've been working on polite walking to earn access, or just taking walks adjacent to the beach (i.e., there it is, it's no big deal)

- He charges things that scare him (horses, skateboards, aggressive dogs). We've been working on "look at me" games for these kind of triggers, and better general obedience so I can recall him in those situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Laura, no food at this point. A calm 'Good boy' a pat on the head or a neck scratch,(my Gibbs LOVES his 'head scrubs') Anything that feeds the overstimulation is not going to help.

 

It's almost like Finn's only got 2 speeds - off and 125% aroused. So we're trying to get him in between those 2 extremes.

 

You might try asking for a behavior on the way in and out of the house, sit, wait, shake, stuff he already knows. Getting too bored won't help. Calm, brief praise, then keep going. That will keep his attention focused on you as well. If it seems that he really needs a food reward, make it boring old kibble. Try not feeding him as much in the mornings, so he'll be at least a little bit hungry.

 

Okay, how is the 'look at that' work going? If it's working well, you could try in a few days, 'look at that' with the car, see what his response is. If you're still very much in the beginning stages, I'd wait until you are getting a good strong response, i.e. he's turning to you quickly after he looks at the Big Scary Thing.

 

You MIGHT, (emphasis intended) see a series of changes pretty quickly. As in, he stops being afraid of bikes, then calms down a great deal with a lot of other stuff, too. Border collies seem to generalize more than other dogs do, so once he gets that object or situation A is not scary, he might 'cascade' into being calmer all over. And you might have to work on a lot of individual stuff for a while. No guarantees either way.

 

Quick story about Gibbs, who was born, raised and trained to be a ranch dog. He came to me because he just wasn't that interested in sheep. A LOT of suburban life concerned him. He barked a bit, but mostly cowered and tried to get away or behind me or something. I worked and worked with him, encouraging him to go up to things that scared him, and food rewarding heavily when he did. I knew I'd reached my goal when we were out for a walk, with him off-leash. There was a balloon with its string wrapped around a strand of fencing, bobbing about in the breeze. I saw him see it, he froze for just a second, then on his own made his way to it. He was cautious, but he didn't look back at me once. Just walked slowly up to the balloon. He got there, looked at it for one more second. Then he bonked it with his nose, a couple times. When I wasn't right there to reward him, then he turned to look at me, tail wagging. He got a jackpot that time, for sure. And while he remains cautious, 6 years later, he is much calmer with anything that is new to him.

 

Thank you for putting in all this work to get Finn less reactive and more happy!

 

Ruth and Gibbs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We've just begun the "look at that" game, but good idea on eventually building the car into the game once we have a better base. We used a version of this game when he was really young (5 mo) and reactive to passing cars on the street, so I know it will work eventually. Shouldn't have let the game lapse, since evidently he just transferred the behavior to other things moving by him that make noise (skateboards, horses)....another learning moment! The bonus is he's picking it up much faster this round.

 

That's a great story about Gibbs bopping the balloon! Gives me hope!

 

Working with this breed is fascinating... compared to other breeds, the highs are higher, and the lows are lower :) It's been very humbling to realize all the behaviors I (unknowingly) taught him....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Smart, intense dogs are humbling to us mere humans by definition. :blink: I suspect that working dogs and their humans bond, if not more deeply, then in different ways than pets and their humans. Even if the dogs don't do the work they were bred to do, there's still something extra there.

 

Good news that he's picking up the Look At That game faster - that bodes well. It might be an activity you use regularly throughout his life. It will build and then keep his trust in you strong.

 

My Shoshone was a brilliant dog, and more than a little crazy. Srsly. I always said she kept a list in a secret pocket of all the things she didn't like/thought would kill her & eat her. I wish I could go back and have her again with what I know now. Look At That would have made a big difference for her.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I will agree with the advice given by urge to herd, and will respectfully disagree with what Dutch Border Fan says. If he starts to whine you have probably gone too fast. And, if you did as is suggested above, and give him more time in the car while whining you would be giving him lots more time to self-reward by whining, which is the opposite of what you want to do. I don't get the impression that getting out of the car is a reward for this dog - quite the opposite. He doesn't sound afraid, but rather over-stimulated and very excited by what is outside the car window. This is behavior you want to stop before it happens, not reward by giving more time for it.

 

Very true, when the whining starts, the training was already too long / too advanced. Which is why I added the part about quitting on a win.

 

But I still think that it might not be the best thing to stop and get him out as soon as the whining starts. I get the overexcitement argument, but it still sounds a bit counter intuitive: stopping, getting him out, is creating excitement as well. Stopping, leaving him in the crate, is probably more boring and less rewarding for this dog.

 

Agree with everyone here that food might not be the best thing if he's hugely food motivated. If all else fails I still think the experimenting with a kong to see what happens is ok and wont set your training back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Well, it's been almost a month, and our progress has been minimal.

 

Finn will happily jump in the crate and sit quietly. As soon as the engine goes on, he is in alert mode, and with any movement, starts crazy barking and biting at the crate bars. This is WITH a month of desensitization as talked about above, and a kong or chew toy with him in the crate. Every time Finn escalates to anything beyond happy dog chewing on his toys, I take it down a notch and spend a few days on the previous step until he seems calm and bored. But we can't seem to progress.

 

Life has required us to take Finn on some longer trips during this period. To avoid totally poisoning him to the crate, we've had him ride at the passenger's feet. This has worked ok - he pants the entire time and doesn't relax, but he's not maniacally barking or lunging at street signs. Two major cons with this band-aid strategy - hair everywhere, and it isn't feasible without the passenger.

 

Feeling pretty discouraged. I'm wondering if the crate just isn't going to work for us. Any thoughts?

 

Other tools we have but haven't started working with yet: doggy seatbelt and a hood/eye cover

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know some people have had good results with a calming cap. https://www.amazon.com/calming-cap/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Acalming%20cap

 

You might also consider melatonin. I've had great luck using it for my thunder-, noise-phobic dog. It helps calm him just enough that he's not nearly so anxious. Suggested dose is 3 mg. (make sure it's pure melatonin, nothing added) but you can safely use 6 mg.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know how discouraging this can feel, but please do not despair. Sometimes it takes a long time to work through these things, and a month is really not that long. If you think that the crate is not working well, try without the crate for a while.

 

also, it is possible that you are going too fast. think it over, go back to the step he can do without any anxiety at all, and spend at least a week there before taking it up a tiny notch.

 

The fa ct that you have unfortunately had to take him in the car has probably caused a set-back in progress. I would do everything I could to avoid having to do that, were I in your position.

 

But the main thing is, please have patience. It can take many months, but if you continue to go at it very, very slowly you will eventually have success. He may never be happy about riding in the car, but you will at least have a dog who can do so without a meltdown.

 

The way to look at it, IMO, is this: those months will pass, anyway. At the end of that time you will either have a dog who has been desensitized and can ride in the car or you will still have a huge problem. If you continue to put the work into it you will succeed. But you gotta let it take however much time it takes. In the end you will think it is worth it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry to read that you're having troubles, still. It does sound like you've moved a little too fast - think weeks not days at each step along the way.

 

And consider asking your vet for a mild tranquilizer to give him 15 minutes or so before you take him on one of those 'no choice' car rides. DO NOT ACCEPT acepromazine if you decide to do this. Ace does not tranquilize, it's more of a paralytic. A panicked dog will become more panicked w/Ace in a stressful situation.

 

If it were me, I'd put him in the car. Sit in drivers seat w/a book to read or my laptop to work on or something like that. And I'd sit there for at least 15 minutes. If you can wait until he's laying down calmly, even bored looking, that's what you want. When he's been quiet and relaxed for at least 5 minutes, then get out, get him out and go inside. Calmly, quietly, praise him just a bit.

 

I know this is all A LOT to do - you've come a long way already. Please keep going. Come back for support whenever you need it.

 

Ruth and Gibbs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Gracie goes bat #*^! crazy in the truck!!!! I mean a real wild child, she does what your dog does only with other automobiles, front seat, back seat, front seat, back seat, until like you we come to a stop and the behavior ends with her sitting there like....what? then we are off and running again. I tried everything you tried, Gracie is a good dog she is the love of my life and I feel I will just have to keep pounding away at the good dog for those few seconds she isn't sounding like she is having a heart attack because she can't jump out the window and charge the vehicles. She will learn to be good at riding like she has learned to be good at everything else I have taught her. I have to say to that because of this forum my Gracie and I are like peas and carrots and before I had the advise of these good people I was going to give her back to the breeder from which she came, I was pulling my heart out for a lack of understanding. Thank you one and all for all you do!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Roxadee, I would strongly advise you to put your dog into a seat belt harness or better yet a crate in your vehicle. Jumping from the front seat to the back the way you describe is very dangerous for both you and the dog. This can cause an accident or injury to either one of you, and if you were to have to stop suddenly while she is jumping around it could be fatal to either of you. Your dog becomes a 40 pound projectile and if her body hit your head or the windshield it could kill you or her.

She needs to be restrained until you are able to work with her enough to keep her calm in the truck.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's what Finn used to do... I also recommend some type of restraining device, it makes a huge difference (sanity and safety)!

 

We've made a little progress! Finn now jumps in the car and goes to his "seat" - he's treating it like a job, which I see as a good thing...shows he's actually listening to me instead of being in hyperdrive. He's still very alert and a little wired up when the car starts to move, but he's stopped lunging at the windows, and we can drive for a few minutes before he starts to exhibit crazy eyes and pant. So, we are slowly working on extending our time in the car. But we made it out of park! Baby steps!

 

Thanks for the support and feedback - much appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Posting again in hopes of any additional feedback that may help.

 

Finn and I have made some progress. With a window shade, chamomile calming treats, and positive reinforcement (praise and treats for being quiet), he will mostly ride quietly in the car for longer rides and if we are on streets he doesn't know. He never naps, but will sit or stand quietly looking forward or out the rear window. He does get hyper alert at bumps in the road, and if we are on a continuously rough road, he starts to whine and bark.

 

Around town, it's a different story. On roads he knows (e.g., drive to the park, commute to work) he reverts back to howling, barking, heavy panting, and "crazy eyes". He almost seems to anticipate the bumps in the road he hates the most - he crouches and fixates on items on the side of the road (e.g., cars, signs), and then lunges at the window when we pass over the bump, no matter how slow I go.

 

Figuring it's time to step back again and restart the desensitization protocol, but any input or advice would be appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would recommend restarting the protocol. I suspect that you went too quickly, which is a very easy thing to do, and I have made that mistake myself. Sometimes these things take a very long time. Don't take him anywhere in the car at all until you have this under control. Taking him in the car and allowing him to behave like this is very counter-productive, and you now need to start back at the beginning again.

 

If it is absolutely necessary, absolutely no choice whatever, and you really have to take him somewhere in the car, put him into a crate, cover it with cloth so he cannot see out, and ignore him completely. But basically just do not take him anywhere in the car at all unless it is life or death.

 

You need to start at the beginning and go very, very slowly.

You don't even start the car at first. Then you start it but don't drive. Then you only back out of the driveway, then you go a half a block. And so on.But each of those should be done for a week, two weeks, or more, until he is completely calm the whole time. If he reverts, go back fully one step and start from there again.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...