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I liked most of what I saw. He flashes quickly around on his flanks, and I think you are going to appreciate that for penning and shedding. Excellent down. IMO you are properly using Jack's down to control his speed. Big improvement over the small pen videos. I think Jack had all that in him, but didn't have the opportunity to show it in the smaller pen. Good job.

 

You asked about flanking tight as he comes around. See if you agree on this. For the most part his shallow flanks were between the building and sheep. The pressure of the building could have flattened them. Once you had to stop and encourage him to flank back the correct way through the narrowed gap, and you did exactly the right thing. With time Jack will become more comfortable having obstacles nearby. When he swung-out the other direction, with no building disturbing him, he often (not always) bent-out nice and wide. You might try to work out in the middle of a field where nothing interferes, and I'll bet his good flanks are more consistent.

 

Another thing I have found to be true, is that dogs tend to work a larger packet of calm sheep (7-8 or more) a little closer, and I don't see that as wrong, especially if the sheep are behaving pretty well, as yours were. Watch the sheep's reaction. Couple times a few seemed a little troubled, but generally they were OK with Jack.

 

Jack's widest flanks in those videos, IMO, are about right under most conditions of weather, terrain, and sheep. Any more, and he loses a certain amount of contact/control.

 

Here is an exercise I use to freshen-up my dog's separation from sheep. Down your dog about 15-20 yards from a nice packet of 4-8 sheep, a group that is a little heavy. Walk toward the sheep until you are closer to sheep than dog, perhaps 1/3rd distance from sheep, and facing dog. Send your dog on his more difficult side. Your position itself may be enough to remind Jack to bend-out. But if after one or two goes you see that he continues to be tight, down him the instant he appears wrong. After a while, you may know when to down him the instant he is thinking about a flat flank. Quickly put yourself exactly between sheep and dog, and walk directly toward him in an assertive manner, just enough to make him a little uncomfortable. Every dog is different, but mine begins to nervously look to the left and right, or sometimes I can read her eyes. The moment you see a little stress, stop, soften your posture, and give a calm inviting flank command. He should bend-out properly, and then quickly get back to the original position you were in when you sent him, so that you can begin backing-up to allow Jack space to fetch to you.

 

After trying the above exercise a few times, you can set-up the same, but rather than down Jack while he is flanking, you walk briskly toward him at the exact moment he is considering coming in tight. Timing is everything, as you don't want Jack to stop or turn him back the other direction, only push him wider. As you walk toward Jack, try to stay on a line a little behind his shoulder, and that usually keeps a dog from stopping. Sometimes a few words can be added, such as "get out" in a gruff voice, and that will also help to push him wide.

 

The exercises are fairly common, and work for many dogs. If you see that they are simply not working or upsetting Jack, modify them, or try something different. As you are doing, keep us posted. I really like your progress, and IME you have a lot of dog there. -- Best wishes, TEC

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Hello TEC

Thanks a lot for your comments.. You are very right when you said the extra pressure of pens, walls and small areas helped the gripping. Jack is now opening and I am starting to teach him the steady from the stand. Also realized how my tension was reflected on his.

Here are two videos of last week, Now I am working in a 2 hectare field, the sheep continue to be an issue because they are still wild, if i get out of the front they bolt away and it gets hard for Jack, and difficult for showing him how to drive, unless he is constantly stoping them in front... I dont know how to tame the sheep.

Jack is the first dog they see.

Anyway, I am enjoying working with him and applying your knowledge, and thanks for your comments on the dog

All the best,

Paul and Jack

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b2n_kWrjE8&feature=c4-overview&list=UUN7ruVuDvsFwwgaIzq5JBjg

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Nvm2EUllI&feature=c4-overview&list=UUN7ruVuDvsFwwgaIzq5JBjg

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  • 1 month later...

Hola, Paul. You have a nice crowd, and a good cross-section of old and young. They are all watching with interest. That is excellent.

 

Jack found balance behind the sheep when they went into the corner, and scraped them out in fine fashion.

 

Did you ask Jack to flank around in a complete circle in the center of the arena? My video had no audio, so it was difficult to determine. That is a good exercise to show a dog can flank past balance when asked (a difficult thing for many dogs).

 

He maintains distance from sheep for his drives and doesn't cut-corners on flanks. Lots of good things.

 

Thank you for posting the video. Wish we had more fairs like that here in the USA. -- Regards, TEC

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Hello TEC

Thanks for answering... the fair is big, once a year and every city has his own...

I asked Jack to flank behind me in both sides, he does it well, but we are working on the distance, he loves to get too near and scares the sheep off, i am trying to teach him to get some distance.

We are now moving to Chile for the summer, in Pucon area, we have better sheep and would like to organize a workshop with an italian handler.

Maybe one day you could visit us!!

Best regards from the south

Paul

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  • 1 month later...

Hi Paul,

I wonder if you have ever looked or read some of the excellent books and "videos" for training sheep dogs?I am happy to recommend a number if you have not.

Some of the issues you descibe regarding your young dog come down to genetics,plain and simple.Unfortunately you could describe them as undesirable faults.You may be able to work around them and minimize them and even almost eliminate them through training,but they are there in the genes of the dog.

Sometimes very good dogs don't produce very good offspring,that's just how it is.

 

Usually a keen, young,intelligent dog with ability and a few faults can be trained quite successsfully.Most dogs,even the best,usually have one or two issues.Knowing how best to work around these problems is the trainers" art".I am unable to view your videos so can't really comment.

At the end of the day,to keep a dog,and enjoy it, you really need to like it, and it really has to be a team player,wanting to work with you.

Really what is wanted is a good natured, strong,confident dog with high natural ability,innate stock sense which is pliable and intelligent.

Here in N.Z. the landscape in which we farm sheep may be similar to yours.Large scale,big terrain,large mobs of sheep.

 

 

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  • 4 months later...
  • 4 months later...

Hello, sorry for the delay on the video, have moved to Italy, Jack still doing well, I am now training him in the open, he flanks well, responds to pressure and in general is moving along ok ( I am also learning every day).

I have one problem, due to my ignorance and too much fear of him gripping sheep (that were not mine), i seem to have put too many commands on him, so he kind of not knows what to do when I dont give him any.

For example, with a flock of sheep infront of me, he doesnt know or maybe I have hidden his natural instinct to balance them towards me..

I am training with experienced trainers, they all like him, but this is one thing I would like to improve.

Has anyone got the same problem? What exercises would you suggest to "un-command" him?

He goes crazy without my guide, starts zooming and cutting too near the flock and gets very excited.

Thank you very much

Paul Walker

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Paul -- Good to hear from you. If I recall correctly, you had mentioned some time ago a planned move from Argentina to another part of South America. I was concerned when I did not see further posts on this forum. Are you training horses in Italy now?

 

My suggestion may sound like going back to first grade for a while. Do very short outruns. Use your body pressure to speak to your dog. Try not to use verbal/whistle commands. You have to bring to the surface your dog's instinct to balance to you. Hopefully it is not too deeply buried from over-commanding, or perhaps languishing due to having skipped an important part of Jack's training.

 

Start at 10-15 yards. Down your dog, and walk toward 4-8 really nice dog-broke sheep, who you know will be cooperative. Turn to face Jack, and move a few steps opposite the side you are going to send him. If you use a stick, extend it in the direction you moved. Otherwise extend your arm. Give the appropriate side command, and as Jack flanks around and is just about to hit balance (12:00 o'clock normally, assuming there are not strong pressures/draws in the area. Try to avoid those for now.) begin walking backwards facing dog and sheep, providing room for Jack to fetch toward you a short distance. After fetching back 10-20 yards, down Jack on balance. Walk through the sheep, and as you pass Jack recall him with you to repeat the exercise. Because he may have been over-commanded, you likely want to avoid verbal cues at first, although, if he is still over-flanking, a quiet "there" (used only temporarily) at the moment you begin to move as Jack nears balance, might help. If he continues turning-in past balance, check to be sure that you start to walk backwards just before he reaches the balance point, so that you are releasing pressure and drawing sheep toward you at the correct moment. For a dog with Jack's difficulty, I personally would be satisfied for the first couple of training sessions with rough approximations of correctness, as the objective is for him to find balance on his own without excessive commands or undue pressure.

 

In event a pattern of cutting corners develops, or coming-in short of balance, you might try a "get out"/"get back" command, that is delivered the instant you see Jack merely thinking about cutting-in. If Jack does well after several repetitions, you can gradually lengthen the outrun, but it does not have to be over, say, 30-40 yards

 

Because we do not get sufficient opportunities to practice, my dog and I do a form of above exercise quite frequently. I use it to keep my dog wide at the top, and for better lifts. Your main goal should be to get Jack on balance behind the sheep and fetching to you. Shaping the outrun/lift can be done once he better understands balance.

 

The exercise should be cadenced and flowing, ideally with a single command/signal to start the outrun and another to end the fetch. Dog outruns, turns-in on balance, and fetches as you back-up. Down dog, walk through sheep, dog walks with you for a repeat exercise. Each rep less than 30 seconds. You are setting-up the dog for success. The dog's instinct to balance is merely brought to the surface. This is described in Julie Hill's "The Natural Way", which is reviewed extensively in recent threads on this forum. It is her second edition of a popular sheepdog training manual, which I recently purchased. I know the website Border Collies in Action carries her book, but there may be European websites, as well. I highly recommend it.

 

There are other ways to help a dog having trouble finding balance, including changing your position left/right as dog flanks in order to modify his balance point, so that your dog compensates by finding the original correct point. However, I would avoid, for the time being, attempting to make your dog correct in that manner.1

 

Once my dog was consistently getting to balance, I did miles (over weeks/months) of walking about the field (mostly backwards, and yes some trips/falls) using only few commands and body pressure/release to maintain proper separation, dog balancing sheep to me on the fetch.2

 

Paul, very best wishes for Jack. Somehow an important part of his training was skipped, or maybe he just has his own problem about balance. I believe that border collies are incredibly resilient, and that with patience/persistence and proper training the issue can be fixed. Please keep us posted. -- Regards, TEC

_______________________________________

1. Wait to get advice from an on-site trainer who knows your dog before going that route. Because for a more mature dog a balance problem is not a minor flaw, be sure your instructor is experienced and well qualified. For any sudden change in training strategy, you may wish to have his/her assistance, or discuss it in advance. I want to think that Jack will understand balance from within his bones, and wonder why everything suddenly became easier, but be sure your trainer is on-board.

 

2. You would want to be sure that the sheep for this training exercise are cooperative, and not scattering, and that your dog is being reasonably kind. Begin with big figure-eights, and once Jack gets the idea, proof that he understands balance by moving about erratically/abruptly with flighty sheep. Described pp. 107-108 Hill's book. We did so much of this walk-about stuff (who knows, perhaps to the exclusion of other good skills?), and no explanation having been offered, that I tired of it and decided to find a new trainer. Out of it produced, I believe, a dog who understands balance in most situations.

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^^TEC gives good advice about balance.

 

 

He goes crazy without my guide, starts zooming and cutting too near the flock and gets very excited.

 

The rushing-in may be caused by anxiety and is actually a sign that he lacks confidence and feels intimidated by the sheep and /or you. This could have happened if you have been over-controlling him and keeping him away from his sheep.

 

If this is the case, then firstly make sure that his body language, tail eyes and stance are all calm and steady before you send him to balance sheep to you. If he is OK at the start and the problem is definitely beginning later on, then look for any cues that Jack is about to start zooming in (for example a tail flick or a slightly dropped shoulder). At this point move to a blocking position and ask him to stop and think about his behaviour. You want him to stop, think and modify his attitude, but you do not want to put so much pressure on him that it pushes him so far away from his sheep that he looses contact with them (because this will just reinforce the idea that he can't be close to sheep).

 

If you find that you cannot readily identify his signals or else are unable to stop him rushing at the sheep when he is balancing stock to you, then consider putting Jack on a long line and walk with him close to the sheep. If he is relaxed towards the sheep then make sure the line is loose, that your own body language is relaxed and that you give him calm soft soothing vocal sounds. All these things will make him feel comfortable.

 

However, if Jack shows any signs of tension or intent as you both approach the sheep, then quickly give a low growl and check him with a short sharp tug on the line. As soon as he relaxes again, make sure you relax the pressure by letting the line go lax again. Also make sure you relax your own body language.

 

Your timing in this exercise is important. But if you use a long line properly, he will learn that a relaxed attitude is rewarded. He should start to become calmer and more confident close to the sheep and you will then be able to continue with the exercises that TEC has suggested.

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  • 1 month later...

Thank you very much!!!

I finally made a video of Jack, I hadnt read your comments when I filmed him, but this is the stage he is now, plus doing outruns, driving...

Not very easy in Italy, lots of traveling by train and working sheep in diferent places, but Im lucky that Jack remembers his lessons very well, and doesnt need a lot of training to progress. I would love to work him every day but cant now...

He has had 2 and a half months here in europe training one time per week, sometimes I get to two.

I hope you can see the video well...

greetings..

Paul

 

 

http://youtu.be/3G_iGcLJc2Y

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Hello

This is what I did... when I arrived here I went to a trainer that told me jack was too tight and didn't know how to balance, which was right, He relied too much on my commands and got desperate if I let him alone or to think by himself.

I did 3 or 4 sessions of short outruns, no commands, stoping him at 12 and letting him bring the sheep alone, then doing 8s and making him think. He eventually progress a bit on this.

Then I went to a 15 day job in a farm in france, did two sessions, the first one, he was tight, fast and didn't understand very well what he had to do. The second one, I met someone who told me a very famous trainer from Ireland does this, making him flank behind me, not letting him pass further than 3 or 9, stoping him and letting him push when he is in a good distance.

This way he learned to keep distance from the sheep, after three sessions, to open his flanks, and to stop well, because on this side of the circle he is easier to control. Slowly I am increasing the distance on the drives, always walking in a triangle.

I live two hours from sheep, can do only one session per week, but feel that Jack is learning well, even though would do much better with more work. his first 30 or 40 minutes are a bit intense...then he relaxes.

I appreciate any opinion...

All the best and thanks

Paul Walker

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First I taught him off sheep to walk behind with a command.

For the first runs behind I called his name, then said the command to walk behind, and then the flank, stoping him before he arrived to other side of the half of the circle.

The idea is that the dog must learn to flank and stop independent to your position. The half circle can go moving around the sheep, can also move through the field and can be done between short outruns or other exercises. You can stop the dog much easier than when he is in the other half of the circle.

Later when driving, you give a flank command and the dog tries to go back behind you but as you have a distance between yourself and the sheep, he obeys the flank but stays driving, on his half of the circle.

It helped me, Jack is still very raw but understood the idea.

As he works very little in the week, the first runs are difficult because he only wants to work and work, but as he relaxes he does it better and starts to listen.

I hope this helps..

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I am very interested in your technique. My BC pushes well on the drive, but her drive flanks are flat/shallow, so that we have a difficult time making finely-tuned direction adjustments.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I will try to paraphrase what I see in the video and your description. You have your dog behind to practice driving, so that it is dog-handler-sheep (in that order), with dog an appropriate distance behind sheep for driving. You flank your dog behind, never allowing an inside flank, and that forces the dog to make nice square flanks, that do no creep in closer to sheep. You do a number of repetitions (how many reps in your case?).

 

After the dog is solidly keeping proper distance on flanks, you practice inside flanks in the conventional fashion. Do you follow along directly behind your dog, or off to one side? Do you change sides depending on the direction of the flank? How far behind or to the side do you place yourself? These are not rhetorical questions. We need improvement, and I am looking for ways to fix her flanks.

 

I am extremely impressed with your and Jack's work. I believe his drive flanks are great. You are getting excellent results with limited sheep time available. -- Thank you, TEC

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In the first video at the end, it seems that you ask him to "come bye" and then immediately correct him? If so, what are you correcting for at that point?

 

In the later videos, you should a lot of flanking away, but it almost sounds as if you're stopping the away flank by saying "come"? Is that what you're doing, or am I mis-hearing that?

 

J.

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I am very interested in your technique. My BC pushes well on the drive, but her drive flanks are flat/shallow, so that we have a difficult time making finely-tuned direction adjustments.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I will try to paraphrase what I see in the video and your description. You have your dog behind to practice driving, so that it is dog-handler-sheep (in that order), with dog an appropriate distance behind sheep for driving. You flank your dog behind, never allowing an inside flank, and that forces the dog to make nice square flanks, that do no creep in closer to sheep. You do a number of repetitions (how many reps in your case?).

 

After the dog is solidly keeping proper distance on flanks, you practice inside flanks in the conventional fashion. Do you follow along directly behind your dog, or off to one side? Do you change sides depending on the direction of the flank? How far behind or to the side do you place yourself? These are not rhetorical questions. We need improvement, and I am looking for ways to fix her flanks.

 

I am extremely impressed with your and Jack's work. I believe his drive flanks are great. You are getting excellent results with limited sheep time available. -- Thank you, TEC

Hello Tec. Thanks for your words and for all the help you gave me. What is an inside flank?

 

The excersise is like this... the dog is behind you, you are between him and the sheep, facing the sheep. You flank the dog to your right (away) and you can stop him any place between yourself and 3. If he is in a good distance you can make him push and walk with him, because your distance to the sheep will be the distance he will be at on the next flank.

If your dog nows well his flanks, you can give him the other flank, come bye, and the dog should come back to you, pass behind you and go on traveling and you can stop him on anyplace before 9. If he goes in front of you, between you and the sheep , no problem, call him back to you and start again, also he can push if he is ok. If not, give him another flank and so on. If he doesn't know his flanks, call him to you, give him the walk behind command, and send him to the other side..

The dog should finish flanking relaxed and independent of your position. Once he is relaxed and listening, you can allow him to travel more towards 12, but after.

This is the basic one... you can do 10 or 15 minutes, then a long drive, call him out, an outrun, let him rest and do it again.

 

On the drive, you are to his side, at a short distance at first. Say you want to correct his line, you give him a flank, and he will want to go back to you (he understood this was his place), but as you are out of the circle he will want to stay with the sheep, or you can stop him where you want. The same to the other flank, he will do it at the same distance. If he starts cutting in, you can go back to the basics. Gradually go increasing the distance.. The triangle is sheep in front, you to the side, between dog and sheep, more near to the dog than the sheep. Walking and maintaining the position.

Please feel free to ask if it isn't clear.. tomorrow I will train and maybe film.

Italy isnt the best place to find sheep or a job with sheep, so we are doing what we can.

Best regards

Paul

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In the first video at the end, it seems that you ask him to "come bye" and then immediately correct him? If so, what are you correcting for at that point?

 

In the later videos, you should a lot of flanking away, but it almost sounds as if you're stopping the away flank by saying "come"? Is that what you're doing, or am I mis-hearing that?

 

J.

Hello.

I corrected him to correct his line, because I am practicing control in different places of the circle.

 

The command I gave isn't correct, I should say walk up (not cup) and in a smooth way, not harsh.

 

It is much easier to control on this side of the circle, much less pressure and the dog knows you are near...

 

Greetings

Paul

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Thank you, Paul. I'll try the exercise at first opportunity. You got excellent results, and it makes sense that the dog would understand to bend-out properly for drive flanks.

 

An "inside flank" in this area of the Country is a flank in which the dog passes between the handler and sheep. My dog has no problem with inside flanks, yet my instructor insisted that she not pass behind me (as in your training). Consequently, we have been doing a version of the exercise in your first video for some time now, but with insides flanks, obtaining marginal results. IMHO, had I required Josie to pass to my rear, it's possible she would currently be doing better looking flanks on her drives. Anyway, I am going to give it a try, and find out. Thank you, again. -- Kind regards, TEC

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 7 months later...

Hello, its been a long time. Finally I am living in Ireland, working with horses, training Jack and starting some pups. Ive been to 7 trials, have 4 sheep and a field. This is my latest video of Jack on a flock of a friend. Hope you enjoy it

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K6bXmoDPZ4

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