Hangin Tree Cowdog

[Jeanne Joy]

Here is a link to an article about Black Bear:

 

http://www.adastrafarm.com/Australian%20%20Shepherds/Relatives/Bear/tabid/72/Default.aspx

 

and another:

 

http://members.cybertrails.com/~windsor/bear.htm

[Paul G]

Many Many good trainers use a e-collar with great results. Some people abuse dogs with them and some abuse the dogs with a leash. Leashes and e-collars are both great training tools, but do not knock them just because you do not know how to use them correctly. If they are used correctly they are a great tool.

 

Paul

[Lane Campbell]

I would like to add to this discussion. I run a stocker operation and I use my dogs in

my operation from the day the calves arrive. I buy 3 wt. calves from three local salebarns

and I can promise you that the calves are either looking for a way to die or a way to

escape. Any dog that runs calves costs me money. My dogs are expected to "face-up" to

stock but not bite unless I ask or the stock tries to walk over them.

 

I have hosted a cattle trial in the fall for several years and I see more dogs today

that are not really trained to work cattle properly because their owners don't work

cattle properly. In my opinion a really "strong" dog is one that can walk up on cattle

and generally just thru his presence can get a cow to give. I think "dog-breaking" cattle

is really a misnomer but I do think most every cow needs to get bit once, but bite has

to be just one of many tools a good dog uses. Every thing is pressure and release and

knowing when and where to apply and release the pressure is the key.

 

I very much agree to look at a trainers stock. If they are allowed to be abused than I

would think the dogs are not being properly trained. Just my opinion.

 

Lane

[stockdogranch]

^^^ I agree. I have often said the really strong dog is not the dog who goes in in a flurry of biting and dashing about, but rather will walk calmly right up into the animal's face, steadily hold ground, bite *if needed,* then release and wait for the animal to turn and move off. And, yes, most calves when first encountering a dog, will need this one bite, but usually that's it,

A

[Gloria Atwater]

Many Many good trainers use a e-collar with great results. Some people abuse dogs with them and some abuse the dogs with a leash. Leashes and e-collars are both great training tools, but do not knock them just because you do not know how to use them correctly. If they are used correctly they are a great tool.

 

Paul

 

 

Paul, you might want to do a search of the message archives before you open that can of worms, on a thread that's been dormant since late October. (7+ months ago.)

 

E-collars have been discussed at great length on these boards, and I believe the consensus is that they aren't really what we find appropriate for training border collies. Since a BC is what the original poster owns, she was concerned about finding a trainer appropriate for her dog, regardless of whatever success other trainers may have with e-collars on other dogs trained in other venues.

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Gloria

[Gloria Atwater]

Lane and Anna, you might be onto something, there. When I hear ranch people talk about good cow dogs, a lot of them go on about how a dog bites, how it hits the head and heels, how it'll hang off a nose or an ear ... but I find myself wondering how good the dog is at simply taking charge and announcing with his sheer weight of will, "Hey, I'm here, and you're gonna do as I say." I know I've seen some supposed cow dogs - of whatever breed - who were all about the dash and bite but not a lot else.

 

~ Gloria

[Debbie Meier]

Down in Arkansas the trainer that has helped us for the last few years took us aside, he said watch, watch when the dogs bite. Do they bite to create motion or did they bite after the motion was initiated. We watched as dog stood nose to nose, the cow went to turn and bam there was the bite, or the cows were standing still, the dog held pressure, just as the cow started to move off bam, there was a heel bite. Our trainer asked, what message is that dog giving that cow? How long before the cow refuses to move and goes to war with dog? The dogs that were biting when the cow moved were typically the ones that ended up getting run over and kicked but many of the spectators were all impressed with the tough biting dog, and the owner talked about how tough those cows were, if his dog couldn't move them no dog can...

 

 

Some dogs punish livestock for not moving but many punish the livestock for moving. It's a fine line and sometimes looks right, but if you watch how the cows respond, the dog that does not punish the motion will have calmer more complient cattle, it will look like they drew up the best set of cows at the trial. The dog that bites right does not seem to have to bite as often.

 

 

Anyway, don't have to agree most argue and disagree, but it is the premise that we are working under when training and selecting our dogs.

[Sue R]

I don't have any problem with anything you said here, Debbie. Makes perfect sense to me, and I hope Dan-the-Rocketman will understand that concept - he makes them fight way too often but, when he gets it right, it's very nice. Very nice.