Huh?

[rushdoggie]

Very helpful posts, Pearse, thanks so much for these explanations.

 

B.

 

Agreed, your post was very informative!

[AgileBC]

It seems to me that teaching commands first is doing things backward because as I said, the trainer will then be tempted to tell the dog what to do instead of letting the dog figure out what to do, at least in the beginning. If you don't find yourself falling into that trap, then no harm done. But if you do fall into that trap, you may well end up with a dog who is very obedient while working

 

Thats a really good point! I don't think I am doing that hopefully. My friend (who is also my teacher) has already

taught me to pretty much shut up when she's on stock. lol (less is more verbally, ie. i dont need to say good

girl a bunch. that was a slight learning curve for me, and i felt silly)

 

Right now we don't have regular access to stock. She's a rescue pup (aka I have no idea what her parentage is)

and about 4 years old. I am a full time student and work, so right now theres not alot of time for travel. My hope

is to eventually have some land and a few sheep, so she can enjoy doing what she was meant to do. (or course

she'll probably be 8 or 9 by that time). I do plan to get her out to my friend's for lessons in the future.

Right now I don't have any expectations for her herding wise. (other than not ruining her for stock) and I hope

one day to be able to experience working stock with her. For now we keep busy with agility.

 

thanks!

[AgileBC]

Couldn't agree more there have been lots of good posts, that have explained it all far better then I coud have.

 

As for myself I never think about teaching my dogs "obedenice" on sheep. Rather I see us as partners and teach them to work with and for me. I direct them as to what I need done, where I need the sheep etc. and they carry out my wishes using their instincts and brains to get the job done the best way possible.

 

Just yesterday I was moving my ram whose the size of a pony and a few ewes, when we got to the gate the latch was hung up, I had my young dog the impatient one so I lied her down and gave her a stay for good measure while I tried to get the gate opened.

 

Well love is in the air and I looked back in time to see this ram about to take me and the gate down...I didn't even have time to think OH SH@!@@! let alone react..Not to worry my young one flanks around and gave Mr. Ram a good one to the nose..backs him up 20 feet and stands there..her eyes roll back to me as if to say "Don't worry Mom I've got you covered". I get the gate open and without a word from me she flanks back around and drives them though the gate.

 

Now what would have happened if she had not blown off my down/stay command?? It's not about obedience its about working together.

 

I totally agree. That is wonderful That is why I love Border Collies.

[mjk05]

Here is a twist on dry training:

 

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=3HGwirF5KSw

Heh- I actually did some training with one of my dogs using the hose, when I didn't have much access to sheep. It worked really well for reversing and walk-ups (although he has a fairly natural reverse anyway), but I went a step too far and got him "flanking", which in retrospect did more harm than good. He's quite a direct dog, likes to create action even when it isn't needed, and doesn't naturally square out on flanks ever. Doing lots of circling of the hose or ball (which obviously doesn't react if he's too tight) might have helped him learn the direction commands but it did nothing to teach him the consequences of being too tight, which is what he needed. And because he lacks a bit of block and cover, obedience was the last thing I should have been drilling. If I were in the same position again, living in the city with time on livestock once a week, I would still "dry" train stops and walk ups/reversing, but I'd wait until he had done a fair bit of natural training on sheep. And I either wouldn't dry train flanks, or I'd use the NZ method- square, not circling.

 

Interestingly, I also tried dry training another of my dogs with absolutely no success. He was started naturally but would not stop- ever- on sheep, and did not seem capable of learning his flank commands. He was too soft to handle much dry training, it just confused him, and anyway nothing we did dry made any impact on him when he went on sheep, so I gave up. He did a year or so of farm work, developed a relationship with me, and just kind of figured it out on his own. I used to work him just using his name, and he started stopping, taking time, and now he probably knows his flanks 75%. He's the sort of dog that could have taken extra obedience before training on livestock, because he has heaps of block/cover and will never let anything get past him, but I'm kind of glad I had to train him on the job.

 

I would definitely try training a dog dry again, but it would need to ne the right dog, and I'd use Bernard Arends' method to start with. He talks about his training methods here-the dry work might not be for everyone, but it seems to work for the Kiwis. I'm not sure about the harness stuff they do later on- I'd need a bit more help with that.

[C Crocker]

Sorry-I did not mark this clearly in last post. First part a quote from PO, my reply followed.

 

My reply post was that good Open handlers do not need to remember that the crux of a good dog is in the dog's ability to think, etc, while on the trial field. Because a good handler knows that at all times and that is a lot of what makes up a good partnership between most dogs and handlers in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote from Op

 

<<<<<<<<<<<,,I think it would do us all well to remember that in striving for good scores on the trial field, we need to remember the crux of the matter in these dogs- and it's their ability to think in all situations AND listen.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

 

 

my reply

 

I would suspect that for good handlers/trainers that thought is always in their minds automatically when working a dog.

[kelpiegirl]

'K, thanks. I didn't understand cuz I am not a good open handler.

 

Sorry-I did not mark this clearly in last post. First part a quote from PO, my reply followed.

 

My reply post was that good Open handlers do not need to remember that the crux of a good dog is in the dog's ability to think, etc, while on the trial field. Because a good handler knows that at all times and that is a lot of what makes up a good partnership between most dogs and handlers in the first place.

Quote from Op

 

<<<<<<<<<<<,,I think it would do us all well to remember that in striving for good scores on the trial field, we need to remember the crux of the matter in these dogs- and it's their ability to think in all situations AND listen.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

my reply

 

I would suspect that for good handlers/trainers that thought is always in their minds automatically when working a dog.

[C Crocker]

'K, thanks. I didn't understand cuz I am not a good open handler.

 

I am right there with ya! Neither am I , but I do listen and speak with good Open handlers from botht he USA and UK enough to learn some of their philosophies. I also hear that same belief from the person from whom I take lessons with my dog.

 

I have raised reined cowhorse for many years and one thing that is of upmost importance to a good trainer of these horses is to not "take the cow" out of them, meaning they need to be trained, but not to the point that the instinct for domination of cattle , which we dearly breed for, is taken away from them, making them mechanical. So to me it makes perfect sense that these dogs are the same.

 

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing with these dogs, but it sounded like we want the same things in one.

[Jeanne Joy]

I'd be interested in learning what exactly they are teaching off stock. Not that I doubt that they do, just haven't seen it done by any stockmen over here and it would be interesting to see how it works.

 

Another example can be found in TRAINING AND WORKING DOGS For Quiet, Confident Control of Stock by Scott Lithgow on pages 56 - 57. He also writes: "Don't give too much of this "dry" training, unless your dog really enjoys it."

[geonni banner]

A year ago, when I was still contemplating whether to take my rescue dog to sheep, I conceived the notion of teaching my dog "Come bye" And "Way to me" to clue her which way I was going to throw the Frisbee as she was streaking away across the field. I decided not to for these reasons.

 

1) I could imagine her charging left, seizing a sheep by the ear and trying to "retrieve it."

2) I could imagine her streaking right past the sheep scanning the sky for flying objects like Richard Dryfuss in "Close Encounters."

3) I could imagine her being very annoyed at me asking for a Frisbee retrieve when there were these delectably redolent living creatures stirring previously unfelt impulses in her.

 

Later I realized that none of the above would have happened. She would probably be completely oblivious to ANYTHING I said when first being introduced to sheep.

[mjk05]

There's another description of some NZ dry training methods in the most recent ISDS magazine, if anyone here reads that. Tony Rofe's article on his recent visit to NZ describes a visit to Lloyd Smith, a very well known dog man and author of "Pup Pen to Paddock". He discusses Lloyd's training methods for heading dogs: starting at 5-8 months, "let it learn a rough natural balance on some quiet sheep and when it can do this quietly and confidently it is taken away from sheep altogether- that is, not trained on sheep. All basic commands are taught using a rope and swivel pegged into the ground. In between training sessions the dog has enough access to sheep to keep it keen and to foster its natural talents." Then later training (and Huntaway training) involves working sheep with the dog attached to a long pole, to get the dog walking up and going right/left as required, as well as "drop off", which is a reverse to relieve pressure.

 

There's also mention made of Russell Peake's method of training a young dog, which involves a rotary clothes hoist. I'm not sure these are common in the US (I never saw one there), but they're found in almost every Australian/NZ backyard. The magazine article describes: "Long cord from the wire of the line abd then attached to the dog. The the long pole is placed over the dog and attached to the harness "Stay there!" And then you say "away" or "come bye" and in order to get him going, gently push the dog in the direction you want him to go."

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks, "mjk05" and Jeanne Joy for the additional information about some of the training practices in Australia and New Zealand. I have seen videos and books showing those methods, and to me, it seems like a lot of extra work for the trainer. I feel that all of these commands are quite easy to teach while the dog is working sheep, plus the sheep give the dog a reason to do as asked. I feel that the dog can far better comprehend what I am asking it to do (and learn the meaning of the words), if its instincts are telling it to perform the same action. A well-bred sheepdog is an incredible creature, and as the old TV commercial said, "a mind is a terrible thing to waste".

 

Regards,

nancy

[juliepoudrier]

Nancy,

Those were my thoughts exactly as i was reading mjk05's most recent description. I guess one can't argue with what works, but it really does seem an awful lot of contraptions and effort to train something off stock that could just as easily be trained on (and without all the rigging, etc.).

 

J.

[mjk05]

Thanks, "mjk05" and Jeanne Joy for the additional information about some of the training practices in Australia and New Zealand. I have seen videos and books showing those methods, and to me, it seems like a lot of extra work for the trainer.

I agree with you, it does seem like a lot of extra work. And I'd just like to reiterate, it's relatively uncommon to do extensive dry training in Australia- most people train on sheep, and our training practices probably aren't too dissimilar to yours. The harness stuff seems to be a Kiwi thing.

 

But obviously there is a place for dry training for some legitimate sheepdog handlers, and it can be very successful. I'm not sure it can be classed as "wasting" a dog's mind- it's a way of teaching the meaning of commands, and is not mutually exclusive with allowing a dog to think and use its inborn talents. Dry training doesn't have to equate to mindless obedience. And the wrong sort of training can make some dogs mechanical (or mindlessly obedient) even if it's done on livestock.

 

I haven't used dry training with any success, and of course it won't suit everyone, but if a handler like Bernard Arends uses it and competes successfully at a high level in three totally different types of sheepdog trialling (NZ trials, Australian 3 sheep trials, and ISDS trials), as well as using his dogs as work dogs, running thousands of sheep (his dogs definitely have instincts and minds, and use them!), I think it's worth keeping an open mind on.

 

 

 

(ETA: I know I used "mind" too many times in that last sentence. Oops. And I do think a reverse is one thing that's much easier to train dry to start with. I'm not sure how I'd do that completely on sheep if the dog didn't show any natural reverse ever. Open to suggestions though.)

[Jeanne Joy]

A remote controlled sheep-herding machine for Border Collies:

 

http://stockdogsavvy.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/sheep-herding/