Training for the Farm vs. the Trial

[mjk05]

Sorry, I need to do some serious terminology studying (throwing).

A nice way of saying "pulling down to the ground"!

We don't tend to use crooks etc, and I guess our sheep are kind of like "range sheep"- they live most of their lives in large mobs and only get brought in a few times a year for crutching, shearing, drenching etc. So they aren't that easy to get close to- they also aren't always the best mothers, and will take off if you try to approach them at lambing. Sometimes the least stressful way of getting hold of one is for the dog to catch it and put it down on the ground. Some handy dogs can actually smell flystrike even in early stages and will pick out and catch a struck sheep before human eyes (or noses) could find it, which can be lifesaving for the sheep.

[aljones]

Apologies in advance for the hijack, but this part of Bill's post jumped out at me:

 

Angus is a rescue dog that has a rare disease, diabetes insipitus. His pituitary gland tells him to consume large quantities of water and his kidney then must expel the water. Unfortunately, this condition does not allow him to stay indoors over night.

My dog Johnson (also a rescue, btw) also has diabetes insipidus, so I feel your pain! We have had great luck giving him a small dose of desmopressin at bedtime to allow him to go throughout the night without having to make a trip outdoors to urinate. (We had no luck giving him the full dose each day, but that's another story.) If you are interested, I can share a lot more info about what I've learned in figuring out a treatment that works for Johnson and us--feel free to PM me.

 

And thanks, everyone, for your contributions to this thread. As a person who grew up on a farm in one of those "little or no training" situations Pam mentions, I have enjoyed seeing the perspectives presented here.

[abcollie]

Some handy dogs can actually smell flystrike even in early stages and will pick out and catch a struck sheep before human eyes (or noses) could find it, which can be lifesaving for the sheep.

 

Now THAT is major COOL These dogs ARE just amazing!

[Jeanne Joy]

In the real world, there are some things you just can’t train a dog to do. It is instinct, pure and mysterious. There are anecdotes in the later part of an article I wrote about the Taylor ranch that illustrate this - even though it mentions a breed other than Border Collies:

 

http://www.workingaussiesource.com/stockdo...ion_article.htm

[Wendy V]

A dog needs to be able to key in quickly on which ewe you want. Many dogs want to gather the whole group in that area, and the longer this process takes the more mis mothering and all around more pissed off ewes on the fight you have.

 

This is what my open dogs will do, take the whole group instead of focusing on the one ewe. Due to the chaos, I've been reluctant to bring a dog into the pasture at all. I'm wondering if a younger dog would do better than an open dog. Since this is my first season owning/lambing sheep, none of my dogs have experience with mothering groups. This hole in experience has been a huge detriment to me but is also a learning opportunity.

 

I've noticed in one of Derek S. DVD's that he uses two dogs to separate and hold off a ewe in order for him to use the leg crook. Would this skill be trained in a paddock first, or just worked in on the fly when the occassion presented itself?

 

Sorry, Karrin, total thread hijack, I hope you don't mind.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

When we start our dogs cutting out and holding a single, we start at a less high pressure time like worming or vaccinating. It takes more time than running the sheep through a chute or holding in a corner, but it pays off later with dogs that are comfortable working ewes with lambs right from day one.

 

Our sheep are pretty calm, don't mind too much being singled out, and rarely need anything more than being cut and held with eye.

 

I use a couple dogs - one is a dog to hold the whole group. Conversely to what you'd think, I use the looser eyed dog for this so the flock doesn't pack together over time. This means I've got to train the stronger eyed dog to focus on just the one I need.

 

I'm sure I'm not going it right, but it does work - I just keep calling the dog's name (a dog with less eye doesn't need much name calling), and at first I touch the one I want and say, "This." As I keep my eye on the one I want, the dog gets the idea to keep that one to me and allow me to catch and turn.

 

Eventually the dog will follow my eye when I say "This" with no need to touch the sheep. Eventually I can do it from a distance, ie, from outside the flock. Gus and Cord can do this. Ted's about halfway there. Maybe a couple more worming/hoof trimming sessions and he'll get it.

[btrent]

Is there a difference in training a dog for trialing versus training a dog for farm work? I know that some people do one or the other; and possibly most do both. But is there a difference in training? I think that trialing requires more precision, but I am not really certain.

 

I guess that another question could then be: do you find that a great trial dog is equally effective on a daily basis as a farm worker, or conversely, can a great farm dog be effective on the trial field?

 

I know that it is difficult to answer the question with any real certainty, because each dog will be different. But I am curious after thinking about this idea over the last week.

 

Karrin

 

In my very humble opinion, you train the dog for work the best you can and to the best of the dog's abilities.

 

Being effective on the trial field has so much to do with handler training besides dog training.

 

If you train the dog well for work, using all opportunities available to you (which may be few or many but you just wait to see what you can find) then if you decide to trial, your dog should be well equipped. You, however, will have to learn to trial.

 

The stories about lambing and catching ewes and such may all sound like fairy tales at this point. But at some point you will find yourself in a similar situation if you stick with this hobby and you and your dog(s) will work it out. Working things out is where you and the dogs really learn, not in a lesson or a clinic (both are of course valuable).

 

My Coal immediately keyed in on ewes and lambs at his first opportunity. This was obviously something genetic and not trained. We don't have to do much with the handful of ewes that we lamb. But he became very useful very fast with them.

 

But, even if you work with all dry ewes or all wethers or a mixed bag, there is always work to be done or even "made up".

 

good luck

[bill virginia]

Apologies in advance for the hijack, but this part of Bill's post jumped out at me:

My dog Johnson (also a rescue, btw) also has diabetes insipidus, so I feel your pain! We have had great luck giving him a small dose of desmopressin at bedtime to allow him to go throughout the night without having to make a trip outdoors to urinate. (We had no luck giving him the full dose each day, but that's another story.) If you are interested, I can share a lot more info about what I've learned in figuring out a treatment that works for Johnson and us--feel free to PM me.

 

And thanks, everyone, for your contributions to this thread. As a person who grew up on a farm in one of those "little or no training" situations Pam mentions, I have enjoyed seeing the perspectives presented here.

 

sorry i do not know what PM means. the Vet told us as long as Angus has water available to him he will be okay. he has turned out to be quite a dog. in the house he will let us know every couple of hours that he needs to go out. however, we have to put him out in his kennel overnight. the very fact that he can stay in the house with his brother during the evening make him feel that he belongs.

 

bill

[aljones]

sorry i do not know what PM means.

Oops--sorry I made that assumption. It just means "private message," which is kind of like an email that board members send through the board. It's a way to continue off-topic discussions. I'll send you one just so you can see what I mean.

 

Yes, making sure Angus has all the water he needs is definitely key, isn't it? I just thought you sounded like you'd prefer to have him in the house at night if you could, and this medication might make that easy to do--so I wanted to offer it as a suggestion to consider. It has saved my sanity by letting me sleep through the night after many months of having to get up and take Johnson out!

[Caroline Reichard]

... I came into the "sport" with a work dog AND soon found out that if I wanted to trial I better "polish" that work dog or stay home. However, I still think the best way to train a dog is train him for "the work" and then polish him up for trials.

 

...

 

So, what I'm saying is I think a great trial dog ... UNDERSTANDS stock. How to make them move ... when to push, when NOT to push (ewes with lambs) and the only way to "get there" is by letting them work stock and THEN learn how to be handled while working stock.

 

Hi Candy,

 

I really enjoyed reading this post and would be grateful if you could say some more about it. I'm especially interested in the polish that you put on dogs after they are trained for work and by the earlier experience they get actually working stock (rather than being handled while working stock). How would you describe polishing a dog for a trial?

 

Thanks,

 

CR

[Lana]

I would like to hear about that too Candy.

 

Lil Nell is not "polishing" as quick as i would like from lambing.

 

Lana

[abcollie]

I would like to hear about that too Candy.

 

Lil Nell is not "polishing" as quick as i would like from lambing.

 

Lana

 

One of the "key" things I've learned through the years is use a different "word" for how you want the sheep/stock handled. My example I gave with my young dog (the pushing through the gate) ... I never say walk up ... I said "get up-get up" and didn't care HOW he did it. So, when (later in his training) I go to "polish" him I wouldn't use the word get up.

 

I will do fast ... fast fetches (as long as he's keeping them together) so I have a fast walk up (which I first start training it looks more like a fast chase) then when I go to slow them down ... I use a different "phrase" and slow him down. Then I go back and forth between fast/slow ... so he compares and learns the difference. They learn to LOVE it when I when I switch between the two "gears" ...

 

I'm not sure I'm making sense ... but I see training as communicating what you want from what you don't. So, if you are saying walk up fast BUT you MEAN walk up slow ... how's he to know the difference. So I have a "get up" meaning ...MOVE it ... also a walk up for a calm, quiet walk up. They soon understand that they can at times "just bring them ... b@lls to the wall ... and other times ... bring them slowly because I show them/taught them the difference between the two. IF you balance the "hot" work from the "cool" work you keep them fresh and willing (as I think most dogs like the "hot" part a LOT more than the cool :@)

 

Like I said not sure I'm making sense :@) ... hard without showing you.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I use the same methods as Candy

 

For farn work, I use "pen them" which means to put the sheep into the pen/stall or trailer ...nip to hocks, whatever it takes and usually we are working 40-65 sheep so the dogs learn to do the work. A slow walkup will not cut it.

 

I use "Get up" to mean move fast on the heels or whatever it takes to move the sheep from point A to Point B.

 

For Tess, I use "Find the sheep" which means I stand at the gate with my coffee and she goes and finds the sheep...usually in chest high grass in a marsh and she "finds" the sheep. I can't see them so I let her figure it out.

 

I use a "Take hold" which is a grip command.

 

I use a "where is the sheep or Look " and if they spot them, I send them. This makes then look forward to the sheep. Even if the sheep is in plain sight, I use it sometimes to have them look hard for the sheep. I want the "where is the sheep or Look" command for them to be actively looking ahead and by their posture they tell me that they see the sheep. Mainly for the younger dogs.

 

A few weeks ago, I used the "where is the sheep" command to Tess and she saw the sheep and then glared at me as if to say "Hello dummy, I see then 400 yards away in PLAIN SIGHT and you can't?" The look she gave me was priceless.

[abcollie]

Another "thought" ... I use mostly when they are young. I will let a dog "mess up" (while I'm not saying anything ... just moving around) until they are get tired. Then I will "jump in" and "guide" them ... suddenly what was so difficult to achive ... became easy because of me ... which makes them WANT to be handled and listen.

 

Let's say a dog is tight on his flanks ... I will walk around letting the dog push the sheep past me (because he's being tight) without saying anything. I just walk in figure 8's. So the dog and sheep keep flying by me ... and the dog just can't get them "under control". Finally (watching the dog so I know when he's ready for help) ... I will ... get after him ... correct him ... back him off on his flank and suddenly the sheep stop running and he can CONTROL them (which is what he was trying to do ... just not correctly) and it becomes comfortable. He learns if he listens I will help him and his life will be easier.

 

Again ... as in everything with training ... doesn't work with all dogs :~)

[Lana]

The mess it up until you get tired i have done a lot with the young dogs. I have noted some dogs figure out the help much quicker than others...i am guessing this may be a sign of what they will be like to train later hmm I wont go on, but Deacon comes to mind!

 

I have some very light Cheviots for training sheep right now, and no real puppy sheep. I am starting a young dog(Jock), and they are a little too much for him, but he seems very tuned to knowing i am there to help.

 

Kell has a get up and a walk up, and a different whistle for it as well, but i had not thought about putting some different commands words on Nell. Good idea.

 

One thought as far as lambing goes is to still use the "right here" for holding a single when training, and add a shhh or excited command to mean grab her and hold on so i can grab her when needed for lambing.

 

I think Nell gained a ton of confidence in lambing, and she is not sure she want to give me back some control. She was quite naughty this weekend, but i got pretty hard on her and yesterday she was much more respectful of the stock and me. The key will be for me to find the right balance so i she is my partner, but she has her own mind. I like her so much i want to get it right..of course when i think i have it "right" something wil change

 

Lana

[abcollie]

The mess it up until you get tired i have done a lot with the young dogs. I have noted some dogs figure out the help much quicker than others...i am guessing this may be a sign of what they will be like to train later hmm

 

I have some very light Cheviots for training sheep right now, and no real puppy sheep. I am starting a young dog(Jock), and they are a little too much for him, but he seems very tuned to knowing i am there to help.

 

Kell has a get up and a walk up, and a different whistle for it as well, but i had not thought about putting some different commands words on Nell. Good idea.

 

One thought as far as lambing goes is to still use the "right here" for holding a single when training, and add a shhh or excited command to mean grab her and hold on so i can grab her when needed for lambing.

 

I think Nell gained a ton of confidence in lambing, and she is not sure she want to give me back some control. She was quite naughty this weekend, but i got pretty hard on her and yesterday she was much more respectful of the stock and me.

 

Lana

 

What was she doing? Was she just fast or was she freelance gripping?

 

I think that was what I was trying to say ... somehow you need to communicate the DIFFERENCE between working on her own AND when you are MORE in the picture.

[Lana]

She is not a bad gripper unless they take her on, and then only enough.

 

She was slashing flanks and not stopping.

 

Lana

[abcollie]

She is not a bad gripper unless they take her on, and then only enough.

 

She was slashing flanks and not stopping.

 

Lana

 

Got it ... Then I will go back to walking with them (for miles) making sure they are soft and giving on their flanks. I won't give ANY 1/2 or hard flanks for awhile until I see them flexing a little better. If you don't know that exercise ... I'll try to explain it "on paper".

[abcollie]

Hi Candy,

 

I really enjoyed reading this post and would be grateful if you could say some more about it. I'm especially interested in the polish that you put on dogs after they are trained for work and by the earlier experience they get actually working stock (rather than being handled while working stock). How would you describe polishing a dog for a trial?

 

Thanks,

 

CR

 

After the pup is work/working ... I start SHOWING them the difference between "rough" work and "finesse" work. I will start pushing them out on their flanks (depending on the dog ... some don't need it) and putting a word/whistle to the wider flank. I will start giving 1/2 and 1/4 flank whistles (by flanking them, stopping them making SURE I'm in a position to make them do it correctly). I work on that for a while then I will go back to the "rough" work ... making SURE I don't give a wide flank (verbal or whistle) while they are "just" working.

 

It's timing and putting Words to actions ... if they are pushing and shoving ... I'm putting a word to the ACTION ... If they are flanking slowly I'm putting the word to the action.

 

Hope this makes sense

[Sue R]

You know, it is really nice to be able to read a training "dialogue" between some experienced, excellent handlers (and I am grateful to say that we have a handful of excellent contributors to this sort of discussion). It is really an eye-opener and a help to people who, like myself, are much less knowledgeable.

 

Thank you!

[dracina]

You know, it is really nice to be able to read a training "dialogue" between some experienced, excellent handlers (and I am grateful to say that we have a handful of excellent contributors to this sort of discussion). It is really an eye-opener and a help to people who, like myself, are much less knowledgeable.

 

Thank you!

 

Agreed- I am grateful that there are such skilled and conversant participants on these boards. It is rare to find people that are so passionate about a subject AND generous with their knowledge. And Sue, I think that everyone would agree that you are included in that group, too.

 

Karrin

[Lana]

Got it ... Then I will go back to walking with them (for miles) making sure they are soft and giving on their flanks. I won't give ANY 1/2 or hard flanks for awhile until I see them flexing a little better. If you don't know that exercise ... I'll try to explain it "on paper".

 

 

Thanks Candy. I worked her on very light sheep yesterday and she had to be smooth or it was very obvious. I need to be careful with Nell that when i am training her she doesnt tune her sheep out. IE not check with her head as she flanks.

 

I have seen her sort of check out as she flanks, and i am thinking when she does that my correction was too much. One reason it has taken me a while to train her up is i have been afaid she is a dog i could push off contact.

 

Lana

[abcollie]

Thanks Candy. I worked her on very light sheep yesterday and she had to be smooth or it was very obvious. I need to be careful with Nell that when i am training her she doesn't tune her sheep out. IE not check with her head as she flanks.

 

I have seen her sort of check out as she flanks, and i am thinking when she does that my correction was too much. One reason it has taken me a while to train her up is i have been afraid she is a dog i could push off contact.

 

Lana

 

Isn't that "most of the fun" trying to figure out JUST WHAT they are thinking :~) Is that the one you ran at Geri's trial? She looked GOOD so I wouldn't worry to much :@)

 

I just walked in the door from working a young one (and I'm "sweating like a pig" ... no offense to pigs :~)

 

Had something VERY interesting happen (and I've never had it before so I'll be mulling for awhile :~). I own the sire and dam of the pup so I know all their "good and bad" points. The dam was GREAT at everything except singling (I didn't train her) but I just figured "something" had happen to her (either "man made" or a sheep nailed her when she was young). Anyway, to get to the point :~)

 

I had a single run out the gate and thought ... good ... this will help him learn to bring one sheep while I'm up close and helping. So, I closed the gate and went out to flank him around to bring her back. He would NOT look at her ... I mean he acted like he had never seen a sheep before. So maybe ... that was the dam's issue about singling? Who knows ... I mean I know outruns, etc are inherited ... BUT not LOOKING *or seeing* one sheep??? Curious.

 

Which is why I'm sweating ... when we were done ... he not only looked but was trying to figure out how to work a single. I don't think it was fear because I've had sheep go after him and he just nails them on the nose and keeps on working.

 

It reminded me why I don't like training pups anymore ... I'm getting TOO old :~) --- Can you tell it's to hot outside to work dogs considering how much I am typing lately :~)

 

Later,

[Caroline Reichard]

It reminded me why I don't like training pups anymore ... I'm getting TOO old :~) --- Can you tell it's to hot outside to work dogs considering how much I am typing lately :~)

 

 

I have noticed that the older the trainer gets the more motivated he or she seems to develop techniques that don't involve running after/at dogs. Through the grapevine I have been hearing that in his recent clinics, for instance, Kevin Evan's training methods can involve quite a bit of running. Now who would have imagined that...

[stockdogranch]

I just walked in the door from working a young one (and I'm "sweating like a pig" ... no offense to pigs :~)

I, too, just came in from working a few (and the "pig" part definitely applies here!). The main lesson I learned was reminded of this morning is to work the older ones first. They don't make me run; they don't frustrate me; they allow me to keep a cool and pleasant attitude. I mistakenly worked the young one first, and I'll just say she can be a pill. She's not known as The Landshark for nothing. Anyway, after working her, my attitude sucked. Poor older dogs

 

The not looking thing is really strange, Candy...but it sounds like you worked through it, at least some, this morning.

 

The young one I'm working does something I've never had one do, at least to this extent. She is REALLY watching their heads--the head of the lead sheep. Ok. That's good. But she watches them so closely, to such a precise degree, that even though they are right in front of me as I am walking backwards, if their heads are not exactly 100% straight ahead, she's creeping up a side to tuck their heads in. Now, normally, if the dog is creeping up a side, I would just step into the dog a bit to kick the dog back around to the back. Nothing doing with this one. If you step into her in this situation, she will lie down. I can get her back up, and push her back to "center," but if their heads aren't dead center, she won't stay there. I have discovered that when I step into the dog, the heads of the sheep in front of me turn that same way, reinforcing that she is correct, and that she is, indeed, "covering" those heads. So when she creeps up a side, I find I need to actually step away from her (which seems really foreign to me), which turns those front sheep's heads away from her, so she will go back to the "center." This one is being really interesting...

A