Jump to content
BC Boards

Help strengthing the lift


Bill Orr
 Share

Recommended Posts

If you have successfully trained an open dog, perhaps you have suggestions on this question....

 

I was setting sheep for a few runs at a local trial and really enjoyed watching the young open dogs (3-4 year olds) lift sheep. The sheep were being spotted on alfalfa about 500 yards from the post on a cold clear day. The dogs my question is about all had good outruns and approaches. Some of them however had difficulty lifting the sheep.

 

Now I know that some of these sheep are easier to lift than others. Several dogs, young or not had some trouble lifting. But one particular young dog tried and tried. I was close enough to watch him try to manuever and vary the pressure on the stubborn sheep with no good result. You could tell that he heard the handler and wanted to solve the problem.

 

This is NOT a fearful dog. Good breeding and lots of work. Shortly afterwards I saw the same young dog calmly, on command go into a packed trailer of sheep multiple times and get them out in good order.

 

MY QUESTION: (Also posted on ask the expert.) What can we do in training to overcome this type of block for a dog? Most references in training books is on how to slow down the lift. What can you do to help a talented but sensitive dog on the top end with hard to lift sheep?

 

Thanks very much,

Bill Orr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 63
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Hi Bill!

 

I think this is one of those things that you have watch out for and take into account from very early on in training. So many things are double edged swords with these dogs - you get a nice, careful, thoughtful lifting dog, which is nice most of the time, and then some days he'll struggle to lift heavier sheep. Or you get a dog that's a little rash lifting sheep and then on the day the careful dogs are having trouble, he's got the oomph to get in there and push the sheep off. I try to choose which problem i'd rather have to live with, and train towards that. For example, i have a very nice, steady young dog right now and i'm encouraging him to be a little "ugly" with his sheep because i'd rather have him rush into them on the fetch than see him stall out when he's older because he doesn't like things to get "messy" - sometimes they need to get messy!

 

That said, while i do think we can train some improvement into the dog, for a lot of dogs it's just who they are and we are only going to change them so much. I think confidence can be built but it's hard to fix too much eye or a lack of power, in the long run.

 

JMHO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a dog who doesn't normally have trouble lifting sheep gets into a situation like this, especially with lambs (these were lambs) I just chalk it up to the "buffaloed by lambs" phenomenon which I have seen scads of times since I do a lot of setout. I've seen some outstanding dogs fail to lift lambs on occasion and I think it has nothing to do with lack of confidence or lack of power; it's almost as if the dog knows they are young and dumb and don't deserve a bite, but the other 'signals' the dog sends aren't making an impact either, so the standoff ensues. I don't think it's a training issue at all, at least not the one-off situations that I've observed over the years.

 

Amy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill Orr, one of my favorite humans! Hello, sir.

 

I had a hand tell me one time that he was attempting to make a dog stronger at the lift by putting sheep in a corner with his bitch between him and the sheep and asking her to walk straight into them and push and push and push. He said he was teaching her to push really hard. I said; "no, you're teaching her that no matter how hard she tries, she can't lift."

 

One of the main things I do to strengthen a dog's resolve is help it. What he can't do alone, we can do together until he can do it alone. Had a youngster with loads of talent, but not quite enough power initially. When I asked him to walk into stock and he struggled, I got beside him and encouraged him with my voice while helping him get things going. Before too long he didn't need me any more and is now in charge of a farm where he regularly works ewes with lambs and rams, reportedly with great success. I always knew he had it in him, he just needed some help becoming convinced. I always use voice encouragement along with my presence, so that I can use just my voice from a distance (at the post) with the same effect.

 

I have an exercise that's worked really well for me. I'll set a gate so that it will open with pressure from the sheep. I then ask my dog to drive them through it. He may have to work hard to get the sheep to bump it hard enough to open, but when it does and they go through, the dog feels 10 feet tall and bullet proof. Then I tinker with the gate to create different amounts of pressure needed for it to open. For instance Price has to unsnap the chain before driving them through. :rolleyes:

 

After I shared this with him, that same hand from my first paragraph made a gate with an electronic auto opener, so he could open it himself when he thought the dog had done a good job. Cheers, Bill. Good question

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Bill is talking about my dog and he isn't really young, he just turned 6. He had trouble a time or two when he was young lifting sheep but he hasn't had that problem again until the other day. The following day I used him to move around 550 pound heifers and although he had seldom moved cattle before, he was plenty tough and eager and did a good job with them. He isn't weak but he is careful. He has tremendous feel for his sheep which can slow down his lift. He only has a bite when attacked. I watched some other dogs at the same trial when I was setting have trouble lifting and they accomplished it by using their teeth and that never occurred to him. I will try Amelia's exercise. Any other suggestions would be most appreciated as the slow lift meant there was no time to finish the course.

 

Thanks

Geri

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Geri - One thing you can do is put the grip command on a whistle, blow it and hit the stop before the dog makes contact. Watch that video of the Bluegrass that Denise did and you'll see alasdair do exactly that with Bill to put a little "fear" into one of the sheep that was lagging (i think that's the right video i'm remembering). You'll end up with what is effectively a "give em a poke" whistle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As some may know I have this dog too!

 

In my inexperience as a trainer I couldn't figure out what was stalling Annie at the top. Then one year at Edgeworth as Annie & I were on the pro novice field, Robin (Shoofly) said to my friend Sue "look at that eye!". Eye. I never would have thought of it. My older dog Jill, now she's got eye! Great line dog but don't ask her to let go with that eye to flank! :D Annie's eye is very different. I can easily flank and put her anywhere but the eye is still there. She also has always been a dog that doesn't like to come into the bubble of the sheep but slips off and start to flank rather than push. Teaching her to drive was hair pulling, let me tell ya! On the outrun Annie would come in at the top very deliberately then, slowly lift the sheep, and when the pressure was too much, she'd burst into the sheep then flank to put them back together. I think Annie's problem is a result of eye and not wanting to burst that bubble.

 

Some things that have made her lift better have been: 1) not letting her hang up at the top. I set up short outruns then use my voice to keep her moving as briskly as possible at the top and into the lift. There's a fine line here between her pushing just enough or her blasting into the sheep. This practice actually taught me that I was causing Annie to bust the sheep after the lift at the trials. (like duh, :D ); 2) encouraging her to push hard when driving and on the fetch; 3) I actually have had her push sheep into a corner or against a stream encouraging her to push against them and I think this did benefit her. (I never would have thought I was teaching her she couldn't move the sheep, but what a good point!). But in her case I think it jazzed her up - she likes catching those sheep that try to break away- and I think it also taught her to hold her temper when they don't move; 4) I also have her drive the whole flock thru gates into small pens (but have to figure out how to set the gate like Amelia suggests. So, Amelia, how did you fix up that gate?)

 

We moved up to open this past year and in the last few months I actually began to think we deserved to be there. Annie's a sensitve dog and not one many would want to train & trial but she's been fun (other than teaching her to drive :rolleyes: ).

 

Great thread!! Keep the suggestions coming!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's a misconception widely held about the relationship of "eye" and power. Many think that a strong eyed dog is a weaker dog, but actually the two elements of eye and power are independent. A dog that has natural power, expressed by physical presence, keeness when approaching the sheep and a bit of push, even while moving forward, and neverthless while pacing, may also have "eye", and this "eye" would tend to enhance this sort of dog's power, even serving as its instrument. A dog who may not be powerful in the senses described above, might also have "eye" but in this case the "eye" might reinforce the weakness of the dog, perhaps even exaggerating it, and giving the false impression that it's the "eye" that is somehow the culprit making the dog weak. "Eye" in my experience on balance is an asset, not a liability; and it is the barometer by which we can measure how well the dog feels its sheep. The young dogs Bill describes may have been trying to lift sheep that were unusually heavy by their experience, and so the solution might be to give them more experience on those kind of sheep; or perhaps the sheep were particularly hungry, and were chowing down on that alfalfa, making the lift all that more difficult; perhaps too the sheep were unusually dog broken, and so a little impervious to the pressure of the dog. In those circumstances, the dog needs to break the sheep with a strategic, quick bite on the hock, however politically incorrect that might sound. The sheep, after all, have to be moved. But as a general rule, I'd teach the dog to walk directly into the pressure, head on; many spend much time teaching the dog to get off its stock, because of the (wrong) assumption that sheep will normally move easily off the dog.

 

Albion

 

 

As some may know I have this dog too!

 

In my inexperience as a trainer I couldn't figure out what was stalling Annie at the top. Then one year at Edgeworth as Annie & I were on the pro novice field, Robin (Shoofly) said to my friend Sue "look at that eye!". Eye. I never would have thought of it. My older dog Jill, now she's got eye! Great line dog but don't ask her to let go with that eye to flank! :D Annie's eye is very different. I can easily flank and put her anywhere but the eye is still there. She also has always been a dog that doesn't like to come into the bubble of the sheep but slips off and start to flank rather than push. Teaching her to drive was hair pulling, let me tell ya! On the outrun Annie would come in at the top very deliberately then, slowly lift the sheep, and when the pressure was too much, she'd burst into the sheep then flank to put them back together. I think Annie's problem is a result of eye and not wanting to burst that bubble.

 

Some things that have made her lift better have been: 1) not letting her hang up at the top. I set up short outruns then use my voice to keep her moving as briskly as possible at the top and into the lift. There's a fine line here between her pushing just enough or her blasting into the sheep. This practice actually taught me that I was causing Annie to bust the sheep after the lift at the trials. (like duh, :D ); 2) encouraging her to push hard when driving and on the fetch; 3) I actually have had her push sheep into a corner or against a stream encouraging her to push against them and I think this did benefit her. (I never would have thought I was teaching her she couldn't move the sheep, but what a good point!). But in her case I think it jazzed her up - she likes catching those sheep that try to break away- and I think it also taught her to hold her temper when they don't move; 4) I also have her drive the whole flock thru gates into small pens (but have to figure out how to set the gate like Amelia suggests. So, Amelia, how did you fix up that gate?)

 

We moved up to open this past year and in the last few months I actually began to think we deserved to be there. Annie's a sensitve dog and not one many would want to train & trial but she's been fun (other than teaching her to drive :rolleyes: ).

 

Great thread!! Keep the suggestions coming!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had the opportunity to "hang out" a little at the set out this last weekend on some range lambs. A lot of dogs, including mine, had a problem lifting them correctly- but what I perceived was not that the eye itself caused the problem, it was the confidence of the dog that was the issue. Plenty of dogs that were looser-eyed flanked back and forth uselessly, likewise several strong eyed dogs were stuck there. But the dogs that approached with confidence and efficiency, and most importantly, without hesitation, were the dogs that took control and moved the sheep off easily.

 

I don't know how to fix the problem, except not to take it out of the dogs when they are young and brass about such things. I'd love to fix my Open dog, but I think it's a case of managing around the problem- she is not hesitant or without confidence on her lift, but has issues covering one of her sides (well, primarily her problem is her trial goofiness/outrun issues but her next problem is her away side). She often lifts fine, but then spends the first half of her run getting sheep back on line. This time the sheep were out of my sight, so I retired about 20 seconds too soon, as soon as I left the post, there were my sheep coming back out of nowhere land. She was a very balanced, confident dog as a youngster, but sensitive and I think I just took too much advantage of her biddability and stopped her too much instead of keeping her coming forward into her sheep.

 

Very few of the dogs I saw grip at the lift were correct. I like a dog with a good grip, and am pretty forgiving of grips in general. But when the dog creeps onto its sheep, gets to the lift and then raises it's head in hesitation and gets nose to nose with a sheep that is calling it's bluff and THEN grabs a hock or busts through the group- that dog caused the grip, not the sheep. Just my opinion though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amelia,

 

Thanks for posting the gate exercise. It could be very helpful in setting up situations where dogs must push and control sheep that are normally "light" AND pushing yields a positive result (as opposed to pushing into a fence). I can also see that it could be used to teach a dog to be "strong" at a gate without loosing it's cool as the sheep burst through the gate.

 

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kell used to have some lift trouble as he has quite a bit of eye. I would set up sheep so they were running to strong draw, then i would be there to encourage him as he stopped and lifted them. The sheep would be facing him, and they did not want to lift. The dogs seem to really enjoy this exercise.

 

I also learned to just live with the fact Kell usually has a slow lift. Amy C was setting sheep one day and told me to "shut the hell up" that the dog was lifting them fine, and that is just his method. She said when he heard my voice he tensed up. He usually lift quietly and straight, some judges don't like the slower lift, some do.

 

I would add he can then fetch like a freight trian so i need to get ahold of him after the lift.

 

Lana

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark, i have really had to work on my timing on this, especially on range ewes. I need to wait for him to establish control , but get a hold of him soon after or risk not getting a hold of him!

 

Lana

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jaime said

but what I perceived was not that the eye itself caused the problem, it was the confidence of the dog that was the issue.
Good point here!

 

I had been taking private lessons for some time when the instructor finally said (paraphasing here) "Annie has all the tools. She's a trained open dog. What she needs is the right attitude." Another duh moment for me. Sensitive, very attuned to my moods, easy to have her feelings hurt, a dog given to "pouting" (so said a few well respected handlers) - that's her. She, too, is very biddable.

 

She's an interesting mix - willing to take a ewe on the nose if asked, willing to get in those tight places, loves to be the cutting horse holding off the single. Just needs to be stronger at the top. It's been quite a journey.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

MY QUESTION: (Also posted on ask the expert.) What can we do in training to overcome this type of block for a dog? Most references in training books is on how to slow down the lift. What can you do to help a talented but sensitive dog on the top end with hard to lift sheep?

 

Thanks very much,

Bill Orr

 

 

Timely subject for me. I was just discussing "youngsters" and "lifts" today with a friend. I chatted about allowing my 11 mo. old to "cow-girl" up a bit when it comes to moving stalled stock. She is a very careful pup and as one replier mentioned about the "double edged sword," I agree in that I choose to let her shake things up a bit at this early age.

For today's excercise, I chose 5 lambs and 5 pygmy goats and a flake of hay. I put all 10 out together. We practiced arena outruns and lifts. I let my pup lift them in whatever manner she thought she needed to with a careful watch of the stock. This pup has a real quiet, easy walk-up on her lift. But when the goats and lambs just kept eating, it was time to let her go in for nose/heel nips....whatever she needed to keep them moving forward. Then she had her work cut out for her keeping (this motley crew) grouped. :0)

Suzanne

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Open Dog Nan sometimes will stall out if the sheep face her at the lift or the drive. So I took my flock (40 plus) and put down a bunch of grain and aflalfa and they had their noses buried in it. Then I had Nan go get them. She weaved back and forth and stopped and looked up me for help. The sheep ignored her.

 

I sssshe her and told her to take hold. She dove in and finally got them moving and now she will walk up to the sheep full of confidence and grip if needed. At this point, I am letting her grip as it helps her move the sheep. Her approach is much more confident now and it shows on her approach to the sheep. The sheep now longer eat calmly but watch her.

 

In her mind, she has another tool in her toolbox where she was never allowed to do that before.

 

Tonight I had her hold the sheep off the feeder while I filled them. I saw her eyes glow at this work and she walked on strong to the sheep and backed them down. The chores has helepd her a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd agree that it would be better for the dog to avoid gripping if possible, and you're right that the dog who approaches the sheep with confidence has a better chance of lifting cleanly, but dogs with eye will draw sheep to them, through no fault of their own, and it can take a little bit more umph for them to make that lift without gripping, so that generally they have to show more power than a loose eyed dog to accomplish the same end. But when a sheep stands off the dog, through no fault of its own, (and this can happen even when the dog moves confidently on it), a clean grip, either on the hock if its back is turned and it's ignoring the dog, or a clean grip and quick release on the nose if facing the dog is perfectly appropriate and not at all cheap; it usually only takes one of these to establish the dog's authority and break the sheep. It may take a second such grip if the sheep actually threatens the dog by starting to charge it, and this can happen quite easily unprovoked by the dog (the dog is not always at fault in these situations, and frequently the sheep react thus because they feel under threat by the dog's mere presence rather than by their reading a weakness in it). There's a difference between what Bobby Dalziel at a trial in Porterville, CA once called "a cowardly grip" and a clean honest grip. I wonder too if the sheep described in this scenario were free standing or held on hay. If held on hay and not fed properly the night before, they may not have been posing a fair challenge to the average dog at this trial. In general, I think sheep should be held free standing.

 

Albion

 

 

I had the opportunity to "hang out" a little at the set out this last weekend on some range lambs. A lot of dogs, including mine, had a problem lifting them correctly- but what I perceived was not that the eye itself caused the problem, it was the confidence of the dog that was the issue. Plenty of dogs that were looser-eyed flanked back and forth uselessly, likewise several strong eyed dogs were stuck there. But the dogs that approached with confidence and efficiency, and most importantly, without hesitation, were the dogs that took control and moved the sheep off easily.

 

I don't know how to fix the problem, except not to take it out of the dogs when they are young and brass about such things. I'd love to fix my Open dog, but I think it's a case of managing around the problem- she is not hesitant or without confidence on her lift, but has issues covering one of her sides (well, primarily her problem is her trial goofiness/outrun issues but her next problem is her away side). She often lifts fine, but then spends the first half of her run getting sheep back on line. This time the sheep were out of my sight, so I retired about 20 seconds too soon, as soon as I left the post, there were my sheep coming back out of nowhere land. She was a very balanced, confident dog as a youngster, but sensitive and I think I just took too much advantage of her biddability and stopped her too much instead of keeping her coming forward into her sheep.

 

Very few of the dogs I saw grip at the lift were correct. I like a dog with a good grip, and am pretty forgiving of grips in general. But when the dog creeps onto its sheep, gets to the lift and then raises it's head in hesitation and gets nose to nose with a sheep that is calling it's bluff and THEN grabs a hock or busts through the group- that dog caused the grip, not the sheep. Just my opinion though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder too if the sheep described in this scenario were free standing or held on hay. If held on hay and not fed properly the night before...

 

They were, indeed, held on hay (and VERY extremely hungry). I agree, in an ideal world, they would have been held "free standing," and would hang out calmly at the designated spot. However, given that they were very squirrley little range lambs, to keep them on that spot (or as close to it as humanly and caninely possible, thus making it "even" for everyone), would have required a tremendous deal of continual intervention by the setout dog and person. I would think that some groups might hold reasonably well while others would be all over the place, which would require much more "messing with" up there. I am wondering what would be the effect of that on the incoming dog as regards its relationship with the sheep? Does that in itself not make for a very artificial situation--a really hard hold by one or more dogs--then to expect the stock to calmly move away from one dog who comes on in? Perhaps having them eat is the more "natural" situation up there, afterall? At least, it does make for a very even and consistent situation for all incoming dogs, as the stock are all in the exact same spot, doing the exact same thing, with the exact same mindset for each competing dog.

 

I don't know what the answer is--these are just things I contemplate while I'm up there. Sometimes I am instructed to set on hay; other times I am not. Once (with no hay) I was told to back out of the picture the instant the dog was sent, and that was probably the worst disaster I've ever seen--the sheep all ran back to the setout pen and jumped in--talk about unfair for everyone!

 

A

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sheep are held free standing when they are range ewes at trials like Meeker or Soldier Hollow, and the holds aren't hard and fast, because often the sheep will drift a bit anyway. The key thing is to have a set out person who is a seasoned handler and a dog or dogs strong enough to do the job. At Meeker they use horses, which actually allows more slack in terms of holding the sheep, and at both of these trials there is also a strong draw , at one back to the holding pen and at the other toward the exhaust along the fetch line. The most natural thing is for the sheep to remain free standing, as the British will often tell you, so that the dog will pick them up wherever they happen to drift to, and the line will be judged from that point. But even if the hold is hard, the judge will take that into account when, say, judging the tightness of an outrun and the dog's approach on the lift. Even with a hard hold, the sheep are at least alert to the approach of the dog when free standing; when chowing down on hay, there can't even be a minimal reaction from them. The problem with range lambs is that they are dumb; they have no experience of a dog, for the most part, and have no leader among themselves, so that in their bewilderment they are iniitally extremely heavy and hard to move even when free standing. If you then put them on hay, especially if they're extremely hungry because of improper feeding the night before, you make lifting them and moving them that much harder, to the point I would think of unfairness. This would not be because some dogs couldn't lift and move them, but because you'd be biasing the situation in favor of looser-eyed dogs that are also pushy. Looser-eyed dogs don't draw the sheep to themselves, and if they rush the sheep on the lift, they have a good chance of moving them. Dogs, whether loose-eyed or with eye, that don't push on the lift, but rather show some pace (which is what you'd want on a workmanlike lift) would thus be placed at a disadvantage. And the most even playing field is what you'd want to establish from the beginning.

 

Albion

 

They were, indeed, held on hay (and VERY extremely hungry). I agree, in an ideal world, they would have been held "free standing," and would hang out calmly at the designated spot. However, given that they were very squirrley little range lambs, to keep them on that spot (or as close to it as humanly and caninely possible, thus making it "even" for everyone), would have required a tremendous deal of continual intervention by the setout dog and person. I would think that some groups might hold reasonably well while others would be all over the place, which would require much more "messing with" up there. I am wondering what would be the effect of that on the incoming dog as regards its relationship with the sheep? Does that in itself not make for a very artificial situation--a really hard hold by one or more dogs--then to expect the stock to calmly move away from one dog who comes on in? Perhaps having them eat is the more "natural" situation up there, afterall? At least, it does make for a very even and consistent situation for all incoming dogs, as the stock are all in the exact same spot, doing the exact same thing, with the exact same mindset for each competing dog.

 

I don't know what the answer is--these are just things I contemplate while I'm up there. Sometimes I am instructed to set on hay; other times I am not. Once (with no hay) I was told to back out of the picture the instant the dog was sent, and that was probably the worst disaster I've ever seen--the sheep all ran back to the setout pen and jumped in--talk about unfair for everyone!

 

A

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Albion, you're right in that in this particular case, they were dumb little lambs, and that made all the difference. Older ewes tend to hang out a bit more calmly, and yes, "drift a bit," whereas these lambs were pretty frenetic. Given the location of the setout spot in relation to the overnight pen, if allowed to "drift" they would have hauled ass straight to that pen.

 

when chowing down on hay, there can't even be a minimal reaction from them.

 

Actually, these little boogers DID see the dogs coming in and react--they didn't move off the hay, but at least two or more from each group looked up, saw the approaching dog, and watched it come on in; their reaction was the same as it always is, whether they are on hay or not. Meeker is indeed a different deal, as the stock are held with horses. But as for the holds at Soldier Hollow, at least for the past 3 years, they have been exactly the same as the holds this past weekend--when the sheep take notice of the incoming dog, the setout dog is pulled out of the way...

 

A

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...