Some herding questions...

[bsms99]

Just FWIW - a former college roommate of mine has a sheep ranch in Utah...mixed sheep and cattle, now. He has a few Border Collies used by his sheep herders. They use them herding sheep in the mountains - hundreds of them on open range.

 

Admittedly, he doesn't use the dogs at a very high level. He only had one sheepherder who knew how to use dogs well, and that guy quit after 3 years. Still, he'd be very surprised to learn his sheep herders aren't herding sheep, and that his dogs aren't either! And his dogs haven't seen the inside of a house, let alone the inside of a show ring.

 

That said, he'd laugh his butt off if you asked him if he was 'going herding'. If I asked him if he was 'going sheeping', he'd think I had lost my mind. He talks about moving sheep, or bringing them in, etc. There is a lot to be said for not taking offense where none is intended...but also for learning the lingo of those you wish to associate with.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

So whence comes this statement?

 

"She was too soft for the intense training to trial, but she could herd sheep off the hill."

 

That's not quite word for word as I don't have the book in front of me. But you'll find the phrase herd sheep in there. I just read it but I've misplaced the book - we're in the middle of moving and my house is a disaster.

 

So how will you assume this person is aligned in the world of tradition versus hobby herding?

 

That phrase is from a McCollough book that was originally printed in the 40s. The man quoted there wasn't a name that was familiar to me but I'm reasonably sure he had no ties to either AHBA or AKC venues.

[Caroline Reichard]

So whence comes this statement?

 

"She was too soft for the intense training to trial, but she could herd sheep off the hill."

 

But Becca, this is being disingenuous. When some old man walks out from the time portal hidden in the mountains of Scotland (and I know that the Land That Time Forgot is up there somewhere), or a Basque shepherd rides out of a hidden gully in Utah trailing 2000 sheep, I am not going to tell him anything because I will be too busy listening to what he has to say to run my mouth off at him. But when a bright and shiny middle aged woman much like myself (except probably cleaner) drives up in an SUV w/ her dog wearing a seat belt to "do some herding with her Border," I suspect I know where she learned to talk like that.

[PennyT]

I think we had the herds in the west discussion before somewhere. Linda Whedbee wrote an interesting post on why she doesn't use the terminology.

 

Of course, we have herds in the American west. Someone hired on is often referred to as a "herd," short for sheepherder.

 

I wouldn't dream of using a term to describe myself that is a job description of caring for a band of between 600 and 1200 (large outfits often subdivide down to those numbers). I've never owned more than 130 sheep at one time or hired out as sheepherder, and I venture to speculate that few who refer to learning to work their dogs as "herding" have either.

 

An amusing twist to the subject is that most AKC types would call sheepherding in the American west "tending."

[bsms99]

... you might as well be cussin' in front of grandma. Go tell her that words don't matter...

Another lesson from Grandma: 'You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.'

 

I have a lot of animosity towards the AKC. My Aussie pup reminds me daily of what the AKC can do to a herding breed...or stockdog, if you prefer. 30 years ago, Aussies were good dogs to use with cattle. The pup I got from a rescue is a fine family pup, but shows no sign of working ability. However, it would be more productive to teach the AKC types what a real working dog can do, rather than jump in their chili over terminology. Encourage them to attend trials, or read a book or view a DVD about real working dogs.

 

I'm an 'outer fringe' type of Border Collie owner. I had a great mixed dog, and a great purebred - both used as family pets. The purebred had one chance in her life to work sheep (she did great!) and one to work cattle (she did OK). I've known a few ranchers who used dogs, but none who used them for anything complex. I like watching the dogs work, but I also like watching a good working Lab. I've read books, but I own no sheep and don't plan on buying any. I have a lot of books about dogs of all sorts, but will never be a breeder.

 

I like reading posts here, but I also get tired of how sensitive people are to words that have more meaning for them than for others. "OMG, Joe said 'Borders'!" "OMG, someone said AKC without spitting first!" I understand the feelings, but it is really counterproductive to attack folks who could be made into friends and supporters. Border Collies (or should I say Collies and assume everyone knows I'm not referring to Lassie?) have a reputation for being a bit standoff-ish, but the owners...damn! I think some owners are kind of 'reactive'. Converting AKC-types would be better for the future of the breed than antagonizing them.

[stockdogranch]

All well and good, but the ACK folks (generally speaking) don't WANT to know any differently. They know all there is to know about "herding" with whichever "herding breed" they have, and that's that. Rather than admit that perhaps they have dogs that might have worked stock some generations ago, but now just chase (which is an entirely different word than "work") a few dog-broke sheep around an arena, they continue to put down working bred BCs, going on and on how "those people" either don't do health checks (hips, eyes, elbows, you-name-it) before breeding, or all "those dogs" are all whacko, or they can't work in tight places, or whatever--fill in the blank. Believe me, I spent quite a few years trying to talk to them, and ended up walking away in disgust and frustration. They don't want to be "enlightened."

 

A

[1sheepdoggal]

I think all the discussion about definitions of words and we how use them, is interresting, but what hasnt been approached, is how using the words, herding verses working, Border verses collie and all of the above, more so defines the person that is using them.

Personally, I started working collies in the "working dog" camp, and picked up the lingo from the old hands. It never occured to me to use words like Im going herding, I think it was frowned upon if ya did, and showed what an absolute novice a person was, and some times the term novice ment having no respect for the stock involved, which was equally frowned upon by the old hands. So to me, what words we use to describe what we are doing with dogs and stock, is more a definition of the person who would be using them and their faithfulness, and thoughtfulness and commitment to the work, the dogs and the stock, as a shepherd, handler, breeder, trialer, of the working Border Collie. The words we use, can define our character, and I can understand how some would get rufffled when it comes to trying to redefine their character through the use of different or some times what can be construde as wrong terminologies. JMO

Persoanlly, I couldnt really care less what words others use, I understand what they mean when they say them. To me, it just defines who I am talking to and perhaps their level of experience and commitment and undrstanding of the working dog and all that that entails when I hear it.

[osioda]

HI everyone, and I don't want to cause no problems or heated discussions but I found this site on the internet that I thought was very interesting I would like to hear what a few other people have to say about this or maybe some of you are members of it.

Steve

 

http://borderwars.blogspot.com/2008/12/bor...bca-vs-akc.html

[1sheepdoggal]

No comment, been there, seen that. Pee U

Search the archives, Im sure you will find plenty of discussion about it.

[bsms99]

I read some of his stuff and was underwhelmed. For me, the bottom line is this: with the United States Border Collie Club & American Border Collie Association involved, we have fine working dogs readily available to any who need one, and fine dogs available for those, like myself, who want a pet who is also intense, focused, intelligent, etc.

 

Under the AKC, the Australian Shepherd has gone from a fine working dog to a good pet. Going downhill is easy, and it is all the AKC knows how to do.

 

In 20 years, the AKC can undo all the work of the last 200. They've proven their ability to ruin a working breed time and again. Until they drop conformation standards for a working (and only a working) standard, there can be no compromise that doesn't harm the breed.

 

A quote from that site: "I firmly believe that the modern Border Collie has cut the umbilical cord with sheep, and although we may go back from time to time for guidance and motherly sustenance, the Third Estate of the Border Collie is poised and capable of producing quality dogs that are no less agile, intelligent, trainable, and keen as the dogs produced by the First Estate."

 

He doesn't seem to understand the dangers of the downhill slope. Breeding something less than a working dog is easy. Downgrading from a working dog is easy. It is going uphill that is hard. Those who want something less can find it easily - try the average Aussie (FWIW - I love Aussies). His views on working dogs are pornographic...when you accept lower standards, you get them.

[Shetlander]

These boards are such an education. As someone coming from the sports world, because of these sorts of discussions, I quickly picked up on the negative associations many working people had with the word "herding." I try never to use the word or its variants even around the average pet person.

 

When I saw Quinn's intense reaction to sheep across a field where we were taking an agility lesson, I decided to give stock work a try. I found an instructor, made it clear my dog was sports bred, and never had delusions that he was going to knock anyone's socks off but mine. I was relieved to find the instructor and others at his place to be friendly and encouraging. The worst thing anyone said about Quinn (to my face anyway) was that he was "pretty," which I know can be an insult to some but I have a hard time believing the warm, outgoing student was making a dig at him or me.

 

Working sheep isn't even weekend warrior stuff for us. Between distance and our instructor's busy schedule, we might get to sheep 6 or 8 times a year. If Quinn didn't love it so much, I'd save myself the time, money and effort. But there is nothing he loves more and I admit I love to watch him. I also enjoy watching the other dogs work and talking with their handlers. And I very much appreciate how kind and welcoming everyone has been to us. I really didn't expect that, which made it all the nicer.

[osioda]

I am glad I read the site there I posted because it helps me to understand some of you that get so upset on how certain words are used in talking about and how they are used with the Border Collies.

 

I just never thought a lot about the words I use in referring to moving or gathering, or working with my dogs. I will try and be more careful from now on for each of you. No intent was ever used when I talk about or bring anything against them I have worked with Border Collies and trained them for over 30 years.

 

And myself I will not use any other Breed of Dog in my line of work.

 

Steve

[Kathy H.]

Just a quick note on the epilepsy meds. I have a border collie who got the bad end of the genetic lottery (heart defect, bad hips and last summer, seizures). She is also super intense, fast, agile, and driven to work sheep as she was bred to.

 

She started on phenobarb a few months ago, and to echo another post, all dogs are going to be different. The phenobarb has actually made this dog a happier camper, because, we suspect, of the anti-anxiety effects. She is not sedated, at least, not is observable, has some very minor shakiness in the hind end (going away and not a problem in daily life) and is more social, less worried about life, and overall, just, well, happier.

 

I won't take her to sheep because of her hips and her intensity which doesn't allow her to take it easy on herself but I have to admit to having actually had it (re)cross my mind (it was a momentary aberration) after she started on the phenobarb.

 

Her vets and us never, ever expected this but, in asking around, I have found a few dogs (highly reactive, overly anxious types) for whom their humans reported that this was the case.

 

Kathy/Iowa