Phoenix area herding...

[sweet_ceana]

I have checked the little hats site as well as some of the other resources on these boards and cannot seem to find a trainer that is not AKC or at least 4 hours away. Does anyone have any suggestions for finding a herding trainer near the Phoenix area?

[juliepoudrier]

I can't help you with trainers, but I was wondering how Ceana's lameness issues were doing?

 

J.

[jdarling]

The Arizona Herding Association has quite a few very talented people involved. It would be a shame to miss out on training with someone because of their choice to also offer AKC stuff. You'd be eliminating more trainers than you know.

 

Jodi

[Smokjbc]

One of my students went to a clinic with Molly Wisecarver and had alot of good things to say about her. It is too bad that there is a strong herding group down there but the focus is AKC.

[jdarling]

sweet_ceana, what kind of experience do you have working stock?

[sweet_ceana]

Ceana's lameness is still a mystery. With the use of pain meds when needed she is starting to jump now. So, in that sense she is making progress. Her quality of life has very much improved, and that is the aspect that had me the most concerned. Chris and I just keep making note of everything going on and hope that if we pool all of the info together it will help make a diagnosis.

 

As for herding, I have absolutely no experience what so ever. The extent of my knowledge is the advice I have been given.

We were looking to try Ceana on herding not too long ago , possibly a year ago.

Once we noticed she was acting funny we put everything on hold. She has really come a long way physically and mentally so we would like to try and see if she would be interested. At the time i was searching I was told that if we start off with AKC it could mess up her ability to learn the proper way to herd. (Obviously this was not the wording used, and I am paraphrasing from a year ago so please excuse the short & to the point verbage) I know nothing about this so please correct me if I am wrong. We got Miss Ceana Lynn from a farm where both parents were working and have always had the intention of giving her a chance to try and see if she has any ability. We are not very picky or anything, I just want to learn correctly- whatever that is. I always hear people talking about dogs that just run around and that are not actually working.... and I don't want to be one of those people who think their dog can work when it has no clue what working is

 

I guess what I am saying is because I am so clueless I am afraid I will not know

[juliepoudrier]

Perhaps a way to start would be to get a few of the videos/DVDs (Rural Route, Derek Scrimgeour) and books (Bruce Fogt's, Julie Simpson's, Derek Scrimgeour's) that are available on the subject. They will give you a basic knowledge foundation and a good idea of what it's supposed to look/be like. Then you can visit some of the trainers in your area and see how closely they match "the ideal" as presented in the videos and books and choose accordingly. In other words, doing some of the background research through books and videos you will have a better idea of what correct work is, as well as acceptable or normal training techniques and philosophies and then use that knowledge to help inform your choice of a local trainer. It might take a little longer that way, but you'll be able to make better decisions about what is suitable or effective training, which could help immensely in the long run.

 

Also, you might want to keep an eye out for any clinics by top trainers that will be held within reasonable driving distance. You can attend with Ceana or just as an auditor to get more up close and personal experience about training techniques and what the work should look like. Again, you can compare what you learn at clinics to what's being taught by local trainers to help choose the trainer that would be most suitable for you.

 

J.

[jdarling]

What should she do if the person in her area that most closely matches the ideal as presented in those videos and books also participates in some fashion in AKC events (whether it be that they hold AKC trials, rent their facility out for clubs to hold AKC events, trials in AKC events themselves, trains others that trial in AKC events, etc.)?

[juliepoudrier]

Jodi,

Why are you attempting to start this argument again? Hasn't it already been beaten do death? How about letting people give what help they can to the OP and leaving your agenda out of it?

 

J.

[jdarling]

Julie,

 

Why is it that every time I say something, I have an agenda? The only one trying to start an argument here is you. I am simply asking a question. The OP made it very clear that she is not interested in training with anyone who is involved with the AKC. I happen to know (because I trialed there) that in the Phoenix, Arizona area, there is a great group of folks that are experienced trialers and trainers, but they do, in fact, hold AKC events. I'm asking ... because I'm sure the OP will wonder ... what should she do?

 

Jodi

[sweet_ceana]

The OP made it very clear that she is not interested in training with anyone who is involved with the AKC

 

Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth to start an argument. Just to clairfy if my verbage was jumbled I said that I was given advice not to seek out AKC style herding trainers. If you know of good trainers in the area who rent their facilities or do whatever with the AKC please let me know. I am looking for a good trainer, not to start a fight. After Jdarling's first post I was hoping to get more information on good trainers that might do things with the AKC. I was unaware that the styles could mix or that people just "rented," to AKC individuals.

 

I have been on these boards long enough to know that if this spirals out of control no one will answer my questions.- Julie thank you for your suggestion I will start on my reaserch- So, please excuse me for being selfish and redirecting this thread before it goes astray, but does anyone have any suggestions for me in my search for a trainer?

[Sue R]

Perhaps a way to start would be to get a few of the videos/DVDs (Rural Route, Derek Scrimgeour) and books (Bruce Fogt's, Julie Simpson's, Derek Scrimgeour's) that are available on the subject. They will give you a basic knowledge foundation and a good idea of what it's supposed to look/be like. Then you can visit some of the trainers in your area and see how closely they match "the ideal" as presented in the videos and books and choose accordingly. In other words, doing some of the background research through books and videos you will have a better idea of what correct work is, as well as acceptable or normal training techniques and philosophies and then use that knowledge to help inform your choice of a local trainer. It might take a little longer that way, but you'll be able to make better decisions about what is suitable or effective training, which could help immensely in the long run.

 

Also, you might want to keep an eye out for any clinics by top trainers that will be held within reasonable driving distance. You can attend with Ceana or just as an auditor to get more up close and personal experience about training techniques and what the work should look like. Again, you can compare what you learn at clinics to what's being taught by local trainers to help choose the trainer that would be most suitable for you.

 

J.

 

I think these are excellent suggestions.

 

You will find that, at clinics put on by USBCHA clinicians (in my experience), probably nobody asks or cares if you chose to be involved with AKC or not. I think the same is the case in general with most trainers.

 

The crux of the matter is whether or not the training methods are suitable for ISDS- and USBCHA-style work (rather than AKC/AHBA events, which tend to be based on smaller-sized paddocks and involve generally a different work, approach, and obstacles). Then it would be your decision whether or not to choose to train with someone who is involved with (either competing and/or training folks for competition in AKC, or hosting, working at, or judging AKC events) or someone who simply has students/clinic participants who choose to compete in AKC events.

 

There are some very capable and nationally-respected clinicians/trainers who chose to compete and train for both venues. It has to be your choice if the "politics" of the issue matter to you. I think that is why Julie recommended looking at those resources, so that you would know and understand what USBCHA (and ISDS) type trialing/training involves and could chose a suitable and capable trainer/clinician accordingly, regardless of what their politics (and yours) might be with respect to the AKC issue. We all have to chose to follow our own conscience in the matter.

 

Best wishes finding someone suitable for you and your dog, who will give you a good foundation for training.

[jdarling]

You said:

 

... and cannot seem to find a trainer that is not AKC ...

 

I was told that if we start off with AKC it could mess up her ability to learn the proper way to herd.

 

So I said:

 

The OP made it very clear that she is not interested in training with anyone who is involved with the AKC.

 

I apologize if you feel I was putting words in your mouth or attempting to start an argument. A "not AKC" trainer in that area is hard to come by. Molly Wisecarver does have a good reputation, however, she's not a "not AKC" trainer. Craig and Carrie Pottinger are way down in Nogales, but perhaps you can ask them for a referral in your area. I know Dodie Green was in Arizona as well (I think she was still a couple of hours from you -- southeast area) but I don't know if she's training anymore. You can check with your District 4 Directors and see if they can help you. The best advice I can give you is focus on finding someone you can work well with, that you can really understand, and can learn from. Try contacting the Arizona Herding Association. Go to a couple of their events. Meet a couple of their trainers. See what's out there. You can work with the greatest "non AKC" trainer in the world, but if you don't "get" what he/she is trying to tell you, it's useless.

 

Apparently I am not PC enough for any of this, so I will just step out of it. Good luck to you.

[juliepoudrier]

I think that is why Julie recommended looking at those resources, so that you would know and understand what USBCHA (and ISDS) type trialing/training involves and could chose a suitable and capable trainer/clinician accordingly, regardless of what their politics (and yours) might be with respect to the AKC issue. We all have to chose to follow our own conscience in the matter.

 

Exactly, Sue.

 

Sweet_Ceana,

If your politics make you not want to deal with anyone who is even remotely involved with AKC activities, then you will certainly be more limited, but depending on where you are located in AZ, you might be able to travel to clinics held by top handlers, if that's your preference. As Sue stated, I think it's important for you to figure out what good training and work looks like before you start your search for a trainer--otherwise you'll have no foundation on which to judge what you're seeing in practice among available trainers. I personally would not choose someone who trained strictly for AKC (or AHBA for that matter) because I have seen a lot of less-than-suitable training practices in those venues (geared toward training for a course as opposed to teaching a dog how to work). That's not to say that all people who trial only in those venues are bad trainers, but their practices may be less suitable for USBCHA type work. If you don't have a baseline for judging then you'll never be able to figure out who the good trainers are.

 

One of the reasons I have Raven here for training is because there were no suitable USBCHA style trainers where she's located. I offered to start her after hearing the types of training practices that were being used on her because her owner knew enough to wonder if what was going on during training was really appropriate. That's where the books and videos can help--you'll see the basic training practices most of us use and can then compare that to what's offered in your area, politics aside.

 

J.

[Bordermix]

This is my first post here after reading for awhile now. Wrigley, our Boston Terrier/Border Collie mix (her brain is all BC ) takes herding lessons in Queen Creek and though this is our first experience with herding (we have been in lessons for about 2 months now), I am VERY happy with our trainer. I have learned a ton and Wrigley is flourishing). I am not sure of the protocol on this board, so if there is a private mail function, please feel free to shoot me an email. Otherwise, I can post the info here.

[PSmitty]

Hijack time, but could I please see pics of your boston terrier/bc? Sounds impossibly cute! If you want, you can post them in the gallery section so we don't take this further off topic.

[Bordermix]

Hijack time, but could I please see pics of your boston terrier/bc? Sounds impossibly cute! If you want, you can post them in the gallery section so we don't take this further off topic.

 

 

LOL - thanks! See pictures under post in Gallery entitled Post #2 - Newbie!

[Mona Howard]

Hi Sweet Ceana,

If you can make the trip to see either Dodie or the Pottingers it would be well worth your trip.

Not only are they USBCHA they are top competitors and for icing on the cake just really nice people.

I've worked with Dodie and have met the Pottingers a few times and seen them work their dogs.

If you only go once a month and practice what they teach you in-between visits you will progress

faster than going to a less talented trainer that may be closer. Good luck. Mona

[Mona Howard]

P.S. The dog in my avatar is Willy who I bought from Dodie sight unseen as I was already in

Virginia at the time. He is a son of her Kip dog. Again I really think you would like Dodie or

the Pottingers. Mona

[hsnrs]

There are several trainers in your area. Check out www.doublemstockdogs.com. That is Molly Wisecarver's site. There is also Karen Clymer in Prescott area. Dawna Sims PSR Stockdogs.com in Dewey. Sue Bradley is in Benson (our trainer who we love). The Pottingers are in Nogales. CP Ranch Border Collies. There is a lady in Tucson (name escapes me). Email me at hsnrs@powerc.net. The herding assn is great. Lots of folks in the area. You might try Linda and June on Baseline. They have Aussies but train all breeds. There is also Fran Evans but I don't know where she moved. Joe in Queen Creek is good too. Ken Ferrell is in AZ City. He has Kelpies and is also a AHBA judge. Let me know where in Phx you are and I'll try to get you in touch with people. Herding is so much fun!!! Narita

[stockdogranch]

I think the OP originally said she that she had been advised (on the boards here, no doubt) to seek a trainer who is a USBCHA-affiliated trainer/trialler. Leaving politics aside (as far as whether or not someone rents their facility to AKC), sweet_ceana heard the message loud and clear that a good trainer will not be one whose main accomplishments (as displayed on their website) are AKC, AHBA, or ASCA, but, rather, in the USBCHA. If their accomplishments are a bunch of "titles" after the dogs' names, that's a good indication of where not to go, IMO. As Mona suggests, seek out Dodie or the Pottingers. Even if it is a bit of a drive, it is well worth it to start both you and your dog properly,

 

A

[hsnrs]

Guess I didn't understand the question. The herding club just had their meeting and should be posting new info shortly. There is also a newsletter being published that could help you join the club; attend functions; etc. Both the herding and Aussie clubs in Phoenix are very active in putting on herding events. I personally don't care if it is AKC, ASCA, AHBA, etc. but apparently the BC people do. We do enjoy all the events whether they are exclusively BC or not. The people in the clubs are for the most part all helpful and willing to go the extra mile to help us newbies. That is the most important thing to me. JMO

Narita

[Sue R]

...whether they are exclusively BC or not...

 

I don't believe this is the issue at all. There are high-quality trainers that do not limit themselves to Border Collies only, although I would guess that most top-level trainers (of any breed) primarily deal with training their chosen breed.

 

The issue is to select a trainer who will be training in such a manner as to maximize the potential of the dog's inherent abilities. If you have a potentially good working Border Collie, that's going to be ISDS/USBCHA-type training, not AKC, AHBA, or ASCA.

 

I believe that is why Julie P suggested getting a good DVD or two, to see what top-quality training is all about and the type of dog it produces, to see what the OP would want to see in a trainer and bring out through her dog's training. I don't think she said to "avoid" a trainer that was involved with other breeds or other venues, but rather to find a trainer that would train the OP's dog correctly.

 

That is not to say that the qualities that can be demonstrated or tested in these other venues are not valuable stockdog qualities, or that a Border Collie is only a "big field" dog. A good stockdog may excel at some aspects of stockwork and be helpful at others, but should be useful at a variety of tasks because that is what "real life" requires. Take a look at "The Year of the Working Sheepdog" if you want to see the scope and abilities of real working Border Collies in one particular farm situation - it's not just the "big field" for true working dogs.

 

And that is certainly not to say that folks who are involved in these "other" venues are not wonderful, kind, helpful people with some very good skills. Some of the most helpful people I've known have been those involved in these other venues to one degree or another, and there is certainly a lot one could learn from them.

 

I think it all boils down to "what is your goal"? If it's titles, fun, lot of competitions, an active and local club, then these other venues might be just your cup of tea. If it's traditional, "real" working Border Collie training (and maybe, someday, trialing), then I think ISDS/USBCHA-style training (and trialing) is the only way to go. If it's supporting the Border Collie breed for what it was developed to be, again (to me), it's ISDS/USBCHA.

 

Sorry if I have gotten "political" but I just didn't see any other way I could express myself on this issue. It's not an "exclusivity" issue but rather an issue of finding the best and most suitable training for a Border Collie, which is what the OP seemed interested in obtaining for her dog and herself.

 

We will all have to chose what works for ourselves and our situation and, like anything that can get political, will also tend to disagree on what we feel is best.

[Pippin's person]

As usual--awesome post Sue!