He runs away

[Michael Ohleger]

Some background: I adopted my BC about 90 days ago. "Skye" is the first Border Collie I've owned since I was 12. He was found running at large in the back country in SW Virginia. He is/was a bit of a "road dog", because I assume he was used to fending for himself for awhile. He's about 18 to 24 months old. When I brought him home, he knew no commands, had no house manners and even attempted to steal food from my fork while I was at the dinner table !! Well, needless to say, he's been through some intense obedience training, has been cured of most of his bad habits and has turned into a pretty sweet dog. There's one exception. He runs away!

He has this thing about chasing wild animals such as squirrels, deer and fox, real and imagined. When the ears and tail go up, and he sails (and I mean sails) over the fence, there is no command that either gets his attention, or makes him stop. Perhaps I'm expecting too much at this early stage of his tenure with me. I've owned Springer Spaniels for the last 25 or so years and they would run after game, but would stop and return on command. This BC is incorrigible and oblivious to any such thing. I go searching for him when he's on these runs and when found, he will refuse to come when called. I generally will bribe him with a treat or tennis ball to get him back at that point.

Now, I've been to sheepdog and obedience trials and have been impressed to no end when the "down" command is given from 1/4 mile away and the dog does so without hesitation. Please tell me this is just part of his youth and he'll get over it, or will I have to do more intense training. I'd like to get him into flyball or frisbee catching, but I'm afraid that he's so easily distracted he'll never be successful at either. Short of moving, there's no way I can change his environment. Any suggestions on how to deal with or modify this behavior would be appreciated

 

Michael

[Julia Hunt]

I have a rescue dog (mixed breed) that has this issue. Not to depress you but I've owned him for 6 years and it is still an issue and I think I'm a pretty good dog trainer! He is hardwired to hunt/visit trash cans, having spent his first year fending for himself most likely. Step one is management, you have to curtail his ability to go over the fence at will. I put a horse-grade hotwire on top of our 4 ft fence. If you can't do that then maybe invisible fence buried inside your fenceline would work. Secondly, yes you need to work intensely on recalls. Start inside your house or yard with minimal distractions and dog on a long line and gradually increase the difficulty. Make coming when called very worthwhile, Initially I would feed all meals in handfuls as rewards for correct response to 'come'. I have been able to handle my dog's behavior through a combination of training and management, ie. I don't give him the opportunity to be bad. For example, at the park I always call him back to me before he reaches that magic distance where he goes deaf should he scent a deer .

 

As a side note, my dog won't come to me if I walk around the neighborhood looking for him when he's on a jaunt. He will look at me, wag his tail, and head the other way. However, if I'm in the van and call him, he bounds up to the vehicle to be let in. I can only assume getting in the van is associated with doing really fun stuff (going to the park) and that's why he comes to it.

Good luck.

Julia

[2 Devils]

Michael,

 

The offleash recall is a long and tedious battle that takes a lot of time.

 

Search the archives for Hope on a Rope...it has helped me with my bc/mix. She loves to chase the cats, squirrels, etc...but when it comes to flyball she is very focused. It can be done.

 

You dog is probably having a harder time because chances are, what he is chasing may have been his food while he was on the street.

 

If you are interested in flyball, email me off list at kimba@ok9s.com (www.ok9s.com - the site is in progress)

 

I am the owner of Obsessed K9s and teach classes. There are 2 other teams in the other.

 

You may also want to look at taking herding lessons.

 

Email me off list and I can answer any other questions you may have...

 

Thanks for taking in this dog.

 

Kim

[Michael Ohleger]

I hope I'm not saddled with a perpetual runner, and the "hope-on-a-rope" will work fine, in fact I've used it before with Springers. The problem with it is that with this BC I'd have to be with him all the time and watch him run to make it work. This precludes leaving him alone in the yard and he could hang himself when flying over the fence (5 feet high by the way)

I have used the Pearsall method of training for years, but am now enclined to use a more aggressive method that I have been reading about in the training of stock dogs. I really think that a "LIE DOWN" command might even save his life if he does this alot. Is there a method for herding or obedience competition that works well?

I'd sure like to try it. Thanks

 

Michael

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by 2 Devils:

Michael,

 

The offleash recall is a long and tedious battle that takes a lot of time.

 

Wow, really? I have taught dozens of dogs (every year) to obey a rock solid recall and I have never experienced a long and tedious battle. In fact, I can't recall a single rescue that I couldn't let off lead within days of them coming to live with me.

 

I have merely shown the dog their two options - come, or don't come. Within no time at all, they all want to come when I call.

 

I have never used the Hope method, but I have run dogs down to make them understand what the goal is. It has always worked for me.

 

RDM

[blackacre]

Not to put too fine a point on it: run him down, shouting imprecations. Scare the hell out of him. If you are doing it right, he will turn away and show signs of apprehension. Then turn and walk away. Call him nicely. If he still hesitates, repeat, escalating your displeasure. You may need to combine this with a long line or do it in an enclosed area like a tennis court at first so he can only go so far.

Sheep dog training is based on the concept of "pressure on, pressure off." You put pressure on for not coming when called. The release from pressure is coming to you. That nice stop you see on a trial field has been accomplished using the same technique.

A.

[Lucy Goosey]

Really???? This sounds like a great way to teach your dog to go AWAY from you. I do use pressure in obedience training, but I wouldn't even think to use it this way......sounds counterproductive.

[mandiefurniss]

Hi, I had this problem with Lucy (although not to the same degree)I let her of lead oneday in a paddock over the back and she bolted. I thought stuff you and kept on walking in the direction we came, looked over my shoulder and there she was looking at me, kept on walking(me)looked over again and she had a look of pure terror on her face and bolted back to me. Haven't had a problem since with her. This worked for some reason with her. Is he desexed (if you got him from a shelter he probably is), there might be a spunky girl down the road that has grabbed his hormones.

You haven't really had him that long and hopefully he will get better.

Good luck and like Kim said, thanks for taking in this boy..

Mandie

[BigD]

Michael -

 

Patience. That's the best thing. Keep him on a long line when outside until you are SURE that you can keep him under control. Obviously chasing things is way more fun to him then you are...soooo...you have to be what he wants.

 

And 90 days is nothing - especially since this was a street dog. And if you are not "super wonder rescue home of the year" it will take more than a few days to get this to work.

 

Try all you can, read all you can and keep asking for help and you will get there. Be patient. Don't break the dog for this. Keep a long line on him so he can't sail away and work on it gradually. I've had my rescue for a year and a half and he's taken a lot of work. But it's worth it!

 

Good luck!

 

Denise

[blackacre]

Originally posted by Lucy's Mom:

Really????

Yes. Really.

 

A.

[Lucy Goosey]

Sounds crazy to me. Must be a very old school technique. I don't mean that as an insult, it's just that some of the wierdest stuff I have heard of in dog training happens to be old school.

[blackacre]

Michael asked for the " . . . more aggressive method that I have been reading about in the training of stock dogs." I gave it to him. It works. You may call it whatever you like. I call it effective.

A.

[Dana M]

RDM--

How do you "show them the alternatives, come or don't come?"

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Lucy's Mom:

Sounds crazy to me. Must be a very old school technique. I don't mean that as an insult, it's just that some of the wierdest stuff I have heard of in dog training happens to be old school.

I don't know how you can call it crazy if it works, and works well.

 

It took me ONE session to teach my new 6 month old pup to recall off of anything, and that includes smelly squirrels and hissing geese. When she decided she was NOT going to come I walked her down, took her by the collar, gave her a little shake while I told her off and lead her back to where I called her originally.

 

When I call her, I turn my body invitingly and bend down. She comes flying to me and she gets praise up the wazoo. It's a lot nicer to obey the recall than to ignore it, from the dog's perspective.

 

I appreciate your concern about "Old School" methodology ... I have some myself about certain training methods that are repeatedly posted here. But if you are training a stockdog there are a few things they HAVE to obey, and that includes a recall off of anything .

 

Training a stock dog is not "dog training" - it's sheepdog training. You won't accomplish anything with a clicker and a tennis ball reward in this particular arena.

 

RDM

[Lucy Goosey]

Mr. Snappy, what you're describing sounds distinctly different from what blackacre posted, which is what I was responding to.

 

Not to put too fine a point on it: run him down, shouting imprecations. Scare the hell out of him. If you are doing it right, he will turn away and show signs of apprehension. Then turn and walk away. Call him nicely. If he still hesitates, repeat, escalating your displeasure. You may need to combine this with a long line or do it in an enclosed area like a tennis court at first so he can only go so far.

Compare to:

 

I walked her down, took her by the collar, gave her a little shake while I told her off and lead her back to where I called her originally.

 

When I call her, I turn my body invitingly and bend down. She comes flying to me and she gets praise up the wazoo. It's a lot nicer to obey the recall than to ignore it, from the dog's perspective.

Those do not sound like the same thing to me. My take on this has nothing to do with clicker training vs. compulsion, but rather, that the behavior described in the first example is behavior that will naturally push the dog AWAY from you, when what you want to do is teach the dog to come TO you. In the second example, you're simply teaching the dog that they must come, and that it's more fun for them when they come on their own.

[blackacre]

Lucy's Mom,

It is the same technique, modified to suit the circumstances. RDM was dealing with a 6 month old puppy. Michael's dog is much older and engaging in an entrenched (and dangerous) behaviour with little or no regard for Michael's wishes.

Shepherds and sheepdog handlers do not have time to cajole, importune, beg or bribe. The dog must come off the sheep when called, both for its own safety and that of the sheep.

But, like they used to say in the old school method of aphorisms, "that's why they put dials on radios."

 

A.

[Lucy Goosey]

Again, that's not really my point. You don't have to convince me that the behavior is dangerous and needs to be addressed, firmly and effectively. What I'm saying is that running at the dog yelling is behavior that will make the dog want to move away from you. I'm not sure how this teaches the dog to come TO you. Granted, I'm not a sheepdog trainer. I am just a lowly search and rescue dog handler, and cannot possibly comprehend the complexities of sheepdog training. But I do know a little about using pressure, and applying pressure in this way just seems a bit odd to me.

 

If it works for you, great. But you won't catch me down at the tennis court doing a fine job of convincing my neighbors that I'm an escaped mental patient! I certainly did not mean to start an argument, or get into "working dog vs. pet dog" type "discussions". Just thought it sounded wierd.

[blackacre]

Civilized discourse, by definition, precludes ad hominem attacks. If you don't like the technique or can't see how it works, don't use it.

A.

[Lucy Goosey]

....or another option is to ask questions, in hopes that someone will be patient and kind enough to explain.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Lucy's Mom:

Mr. Snappy, what you're describing sounds distinctly different from what blackacre posted, which is what I was responding to.

I sign my posts RDM. "MrSnappy" is my dog.

 

And actually it's not that different. My pup is 6 months and 20 lbs soaking wet with zero training. I don't need to lay it on thick.

 

If a sheep runs at a dog with intent to maim, the dog dodges out and comes back in for more again. There's pressure for you.

 

If my dog disobeys me, I'll run him down with an intent to verbally "maim" him. Then I'll turn and call him again - he's a border collie, so he'll come back for more. And he's smart enough to know it's more fun to come and get praise than to be run down and hollered at.

 

If I lay my dog down on sheep and he doesn't do it right away, I'll go make him.

 

Pushing the dog away from you when you're cheezed at him isn't a crime. If you're a good enough trainer you aren't mad at him for real, and you can switch to praise the second you see compliance. They read this like crazy and they respond to it well.

 

RDM

[Lucy Goosey]

Originally posted by MrSnappy:

I sign my posts RDM. "MrSnappy" is my dog.

I certainly did not mean to offend. It is well within appropriate netiquette to address people by their displayed member name, which is Mr. Snappy in your case. I'll try to remember to address you as you prefer to be addressed, but if I don't always, be assured that it is not with any intent to offend. BTW, I have changed my name to SAR K9 Lucy, I am no longer "Lucy's Mom". I don't know if that shows up on your computer.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. I think I understand it a little better now. Though I'm not sure this is going to work with Michael's dog. I'd be curious, if he tries it, to hear the results.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by SAR K9 Lucy:

I certainly did not mean to offend. It is well within appropriate netiquette to address people by their displayed member name

I'm not worried about "netiquette" lessons. I was just telling you that people address me as RDM.

 

BTW, I have changed my name to SAR K9 Lucy, I am no longer "Lucy's Mom". I don't know if that shows up on your computer.

The BB automatically quotes your user name. I didn't address you in any way at all. I assume it will come up with your new moniker now.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. I think I understand it a little better now. Though I'm not sure this is going to work with Micheal's dog. I'd be curious, if he tries it, to hear the results.

I don't see why it won't work, if he does it properly. If it doesn't work, he should definitely try something else.

 

For a dog who jumps fences I would tie him to the spot where he jumped and leave him there on a short chain for an hour or so to think things over. It might make him think twice about jumping the next time.

 

RDM

[blackacre]

SAR K9 Lucy,

For heaven's sake girl. First you say " . . you won't catch me down at the tennis court doing a fine job of convincing my neighbors that I'm an escaped mental patient!" and the next you want someone to explain the technique to you "patiently and kindly."

Nonetheless, I'll take a shot. You are right, it is miles away from everything you have ever learned in obedience, agility or, for all I know, search and rescue.

It works like this: a border collie is a highly motivated and intelligent dog. It lives to work. In this case, Michael's dog has created his own work, which is to chase deer or whatever. Michael can attempt to influence the dog's behaviour by offering treats, cajoling, wheedling etc. The attraction of coming back to Michael however is as nothing compared to the thrill of the chase, and none of these blandishments are likely to have the least effect on the dog. Therefore, Michael has to make the dog more worried about him than he is motivated to chase. Being run at by a crazed mental patient, as you put it, is intended to worry the dog and break his concentration on the work it has created for itself. Once he has got the dog's attention, the dog will seek to placate him by doing what Michael asks. Coming back to Michael will feel good, chasing deer will feel bad. Not being a stupid animal, a border collie will soon learn that pleasing his master is a pleasant and rewarding experience. His work becomes what Michael asks of him. This is all the behaviour modification a border collie needs.

A.

[Lucy Goosey]

Originally posted by MrSnappy:

I'm not worried about "netiquette" lessons. I was just telling you that people address me as RDM.

 

Oh, OK. It looked like you were telling me that's how you want to be addressed. Now that I know that is not the case, I won't worry about it.

 

The BB automatically quotes your user name. I didn't address you in any way at all. I assume it will come up with your new moniker now.

 

Unless you use the Instant UBB Code to make your quotes. Since I wasn't on your end of the computer, there was no way for me to know how you made your quotes.

 

I don't see why it won't work, if he does it properly. If it doesn't work, he should definitely try something else.

The only reason I suspect it might not work is because his dog is an adult rescue. Sometimes approaches that work while in the initial stages of a problem behavior are ineffective once the behavior has become reinforced through repetition, and you really have to reassess your strategies. Or, if you don't know the dog's background and what kind of handling they have had, they may have baggage that will interfere with the communication process, where you might be attempting to communicate one thing, but the dog interprets it differently based upon past experience.

 

 

Originally posted by blackacre:

For heaven's sake girl. First you say " . . you won't catch me down at the tennis court doing a fine job of convincing my neighbors that I'm an escaped mental patient!" and the next you want someone to explain the technique to you "patiently and kindly."

That was an attempt at humor.

[Lucy Goosey]

Michael,

If you're not getting a reliable recall, I'm not sure you're going to get a reliable down in motion. The reason is that when he's chasing critters, he's locked into prey drive and nothing else is more interesting/rewarding to him than the chase.

 

Another way of looking at this is that you have two problems. One, the fence jumping. Two, the crittering. If his motivation is sufficient, he'll jump that fence for reasons other than crittering; say, boredom, frustration, or a sudden, loud noise that spooks him, because he knows he can. So the first thing I would do is make it impossible for him to jump the fence. That may mean putting in a new, taller fence, or you could try this: Attach 18' wide strips of lattice, chicken wire, farm fence, or whatever, to the top of your existing fence, tilting in at a 45 degree angle. This should create a barrier that keeps your dog from being able to get out, and other animals from being able to get in. I wouldn't advise using a tie out as a long term solution (that's restraint, not training, plus any smart, frustrated dog can get off a tie out), but you could use one temporarily until your fence is modified. By removing his ability to engage in the chasing behavior, you're eliminating the opportunity for the behavior to be reinforced through repetition.

 

Keep in mind that game chasing/crittering is a self rewarding behavior (the chase is the reward), and that every time he gets to do this, it becomes even more ingrained.

 

The reason he won't come to you even if you offer him food or a ball is that those things are not nearly as interesting as chasing critters. You can try using aversives that are stronger than his desire to chase; some of these can be very effective. Another thing you can try is to channel his chase/prey drive into a special game that he only plays with you.

 

For instance, in the comfort of your own living room with no distractions, take a ball on a string (you can make one out of a tennis ball and a four foot length of rope), and get him to chase the ball. Using the rope, jerk the ball around, imitating prey-like movements. When he shows interest, encourage him to chase it. Tease him with it and get him really excited to catch it. At some point, he will catch it (or you will let him catch it), but don't let go of the rope. Play a tug game with him, but make sure you get excited. If you don't feel like a complete idiot, you're not doing it right! During the game, get him to let go of the toy and start the chase all over again. When you end the game (be sure to end the game while he is still interested, before he has a chance to get bored), you keep control of the toy. You might give him a special food treat at the end of the game, then put the toy away. Play this game with him once per day, until he gets excited just seeing the toy.

 

Now, you'll be ready to integrate the game into obedience training. The idea is that you use the dog's own prey drive to your advantage. Get the dog into drive, get the behavior you want (sit, down, come, etc.), then reward him with a quick game. Save the best game for the hardest behaviors, such as the recall.

 

Next, move the training out into the back yard where he has had the issues with the critters in the past. Keep him so happy with his game with you that he pays the critters no mind.

 

Eventually, you keep increasing the distractions until he can stay focused on you even with lots of other stuff going on. You'll need to make sure that you always have the ability to enforce a "come" command. NEVER let him off leash if you might NEED to call him. If you want to let him have a little freedom, use a check cord. You can make one of any length that you like, simply by going down to the hardware store and purchasing a length of poly rope, and attaching one end to a snap hook. Thirty feet would be a good place to start. If he tries to take off after a critter, you can stop him by stepping on and taking hold of the check cord and making him come back to you, then reward him with a game of chase the ball. If he's not interested in the game, then just start walking away from the area where he became interested in the critter in an upbeat manner, and when you see that he can now focus on you, try playing the game with him then.

 

Another option is ecollar training. If you decide to go that route, email me and I'll point you in the right direction. There are many trainers out there who have no business using such a tool, but there are a few that really know their stuff and can use them in a humane and safe manner, who have been very successful with behaviors like this.