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Venues that Award Placements for NQ Runs


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But when ribbons (or medals or whatever) mark accomplishments that my dog and I achieve together, they become quite valuable to me. Maddie learned that ribbons in my hand meant something to me in some sense.

And that's the core of it - because they mean something to *you*, she has recognized that that means good things to *her*.

 

I think you are still the kind of person who would find the value in the journey and the partnership to be the most important thing, ribbons or no ribbons.

 

Lest I give the wrong impression, I still have every rosette and ribbon my dairy goats won at shows; would still have the public listings of their breed leader production status if the magazines with those had not gotten mistakenly discarded in our move (or are still in a box up in the attic :huh:/> ); and made sure any and all awards/ribbons/trophies, etc., that my kids may have earned were kept carefully until they were passed on to them as adults.

 

These things do mean something to us humans - to the animals, only by association - and that's just fine, as long as we recognize them for what they really mean (as you seem to do).

 

PS - Sorry for butting in where I have no real interest, just opinions! <_<

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I think you are still the kind of person who would find the value in the journey and the partnership to be the most important thing, ribbons or no ribbons.

 

Yes, I am. But I do like ribbons. They're colorful. They're pretty. They're tangible. They really appeal to my artistic side.

 

I especially enjoy them when they are unique - Tessa recently got a pink and purple title ribbon. How fun is that? Perfectly girly for a pair of girly Agility partners! First Level 2 Title - pretty and a big-ish milestone for us.

 

Granted, yes, the fact that I finally have a competition partner who revels in being at trial sites and really, really wants to get out there and run means more to me than the ribbons. And seeing how far she has come from the dog who used to hide on my furniture and behind my dogs means more to me than ribbons!! And seeing how far she has progressed since we couldn't Q to save our lives one year ago means more to me than ribbons.

 

But I'll admit it - I do enjoy the ribbons. :P I probably always will!!

 

These things do mean something to us humans - to the animals, only by association - and that's just fine, as long as we recognize them for what they really mean (as you seem to do).

 

I absolutely concur!! :)

 

PS - Sorry for butting in where I have no real interest, just opinions!

 

I don't see it as butting in. AKC herding was brought up, and I would agree with you - an instinct test (That's HIT, right?) is not a measure of a dog's overall working ability. No more than the fact that a dog can jump over things and climb on furniture is a measure of a dog's Agility talent (or jumping over furniture, for that matter). I have certainly learned that lesson firsthand - LOL!!! :D

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Actually HIT is high in trial, which means the highest score of the day. There's some discussion on some lists about the fairness of that, because of the different types of stock and the different courses, from novice to advanced; for example, you could get HIT for a great novice duck run, but the cattle on the advanced course were super challenging, and the dog who did well on them, but perhaps scored a point lower than the novice duck dog would be out of luck, although one could argue that the advanced dog who did well on difficult cattle was probably the better dog that day. But I think if one runs in any title-driven venue then you just have to accept the way the titles are managed and work within that frame.

 

I can see the argument about time and faults--that makes sense to me because I also showed horses. Then again, I don't remember there also being Q and NQ, and that's what gets me a little mixed up. I guess you can place in a time and faults manner but not Q because of what the faults were, and that sort of makes sense too. Then again, I'm one of those people who doesn't care so much about a prize as about the accomplishment, so my opinion doesn't really count in this discussion.

 

As others have noted, in USBCHA trialing, a DQ is a 0 no matter how wonderful the run was up to the DQ (and you can DQ on the last element after a blazing run and that's just too bad for you), so no placing, period.

 

J.

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HIT is used as Julie pointed out, to mean "High In Trial" and I think is often used by people both in AKC and ASCA. While AKC now uses "Instinct Test", I believe it used to be called "Herding Instinct Test" which is why some refer to it as HIT. I think that in ASCA, it's HCT or "Herding Capability Test", and JHD or "Junior Herding Dog Test". So it's easy to confuse what someone is talking about.

 

As Julie points out, HIT is best used to refer to "High in Trial" rather than the "Instinct Test" as it is now called.

 

PS - I would think that HIT would be more appropriate if it applied to a cumulative score within a class, as in HIT in Advanced Cattle, or something like that. To compare scores across runs in all classes on all stock is like comparing apples and oranges, and not really valid at all, IMO. Of course, most of what AKC does isn't valid in my opinion, particularly when it comes to dealing with stockdogs...

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Dear Doggers,

 

For me, usually a run starts when I send my dog and ends when I call the dog to my feet and give it a pat. Before and after don't matter much and I check scores and rankings when I'm not quite sure what we did during the run. If we win something, somebody mentions it and if there's a ribbon, they'll mail it. Last July, three months after June died, I returned to NH for the Cascade sheepdog trial where they handed me a ribbon for June's placing the previous year. "We didn't have your mailing address", they said.

 

That 6th place green ribbon went up on the wall.

 

Donald McCaig

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PS - Sorry for butting in where I have no real interest, just opinions! <_</>

 

But we're not just talking about the specific awards in agility now, more what different people regard as a mark of success, whatever their activity, so your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

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But we're not just talking about the specific awards in agility now, more what different people regard as a mark of success,

 

I like the way you put that - what is regarded as a mark of success.

 

I would propose that each individual venue, regardless of the sport in question, has the right to determine what will be offered as marks of success at its own events.

 

A lot of the newer venues are branching out and are marking success in ways that are quite different from how it has been done more traditionally. Personally, I like that - it livens things up, and provides new and very fun challenges.

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As part of an effort to clean out my basement storage room, I will be gathering various ribbons and donating them. The USDAA (agility organization) has (or did have) a program which accepts old ribbons (from any activity, not only agility) and then redistributes them to children's and mentally challenged adult programs. The clients do not care what the ribbon say, they just enjoy being awarded a cool ribbon. I think it is a great idea.

 

Jovi

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USDAA even awards yearly Top 10 points for NQ runs. The number of placements (for Top 10 points) at the Masters level depends on the number of dogs in the class. So it's possible to place and earn points in a class even if you don't earn a Q.

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Placements in many Agility venues say the same thing. Who came in first in the order, who came in second, who came in third, and who came in fourth. The team may not have a Q score, but the placement says who finished where.

 

That's really all it says.

 

Exactly. To each his own, whether they think it's "stupid" or not, it's just information. Personally, I don't take placement ribbons when we didn't Q (and yes, that's happened way too many times for my liking, LOL!), but no biggie to me if others do.

 

ETA: I posted before I realized or read there was a second page. Ooops!

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I know in AKC you get a ribbon for qualifying even if you don't place...

 

I'm kind of confused as to why a venue would give awards to teams that NQ? You didn't meet the basic requirments/standard to qualify on that course or in the ring/on the field? You'll need to go back to training and try and improve? What's the point of a competitive environment at all?

 

It confuses me too. I have been doing NADAC since last June and didn't even notice they did (just assumed you didn't place if you didn't Q) until a trial I was in last month. My dog actually "placed" first and didn't Q (none of the novice dogs there Qed in Chances). I didn't bother picking up the ribbon. It seemed too strange to get first place after blowing a discrimination.

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Sometimes courses are hard, just because you may if gotten 1 bar, doesn't mean you dont deserve a place.

 

I'm not into the title system, I find it very boring and not fun at all, I get it though it great to give harder/unconventional breeds/none competitive teams, a structure and a great way to earn recognition. And really, I don't trial often.

 

Myself, I like to take chances on handling runs risky in order to get the best time, trying like heck not to fault, but I want to have an amazing run, not a perfect one. I like when risks are rewarded (safe risks) versus slow and steady.

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I'm not into the title system, I find it very boring and not fun at all, I get it though it great to give harder/unconventional breeds/none competitive teams, a structure and a great way to earn recognition. And really, I don't trial often.

 

Myself, I like to take chances on handling runs risky in order to get the best time, trying like heck not to fault, but I want to have an amazing run, not a perfect one. I like when risks are rewarded (safe risks) versus slow and steady.

 

I am of a similar mindset regarding running a course. I try to handle for a run that is smooth, flows well, but yet is extremely fast with tight turns and RCs. I can not tell you how many JWW courses we have attempted, and finished in 50% or less of Standard Course Time (which is quite generous, I must admit), but have one knocked bar. It doesn't even bother me anymore. Usually the knocked bar is my fault. I say something to my dog which causes him to adjust in mid-air (because he is trying soooo hard) and the bar comes down. Sometimes there is no rhyme or reason for the knocked bar - it's just one of those things. We have A LOT of NQs.

 

On the bright side, because my boy loves speed and running, I have had to learn to try and keep up with him. He pushes me to become a better handler - not that I am that great, but I am better than if I had a slower dog.

 

Jov

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To add to my previous post --

My instructor took me aside last week to express her disappointment that I had not been working harder on training my dog to have successful running contacts. She said that I should be running at more advanced levels in the trials. Yada, yada, yada.... I should think about going back to a stopped contact.

 

NOT!

 

I know what she is saying, and I was very nice and said that now with spring here, better weather, etc., I would work more on training the RC. Yada, yada, yada ...

 

What I thought, but didn't say (for once) - was that I don't give a rat's patootie about getting the titles. I like the training process and accomplishing the difficult handling sequences. I am not going to change my handling or try and slow my dog just to get Qs and titles. My dog is having a great time with agility, and I am not going to mess with that.

 

Jovi

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Just curious.

 

For the venues that give placement even if you don't Q. Are there still placement for the dogs that did Q?

 

Say your dog had the fastest time but knocked the bar. You would get 1st still?

 

Would the dog that ran clean but slower still get a 1st place if they beat all the other clean/qualifying dogs?

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To add to my previous post --

My instructor took me aside last week to express her disappointment that I had not been working harder on training my dog to have successful running contacts. She said that I should be running at more advanced levels in the trials. Yada, yada, yada.... I should think about going back to a stopped contact.

 

NOT!

 

I know what she is saying, and I was very nice and said that now with spring here, better weather, etc., I would work more on training the RC. Yada, yada, yada ...

 

What I thought, but didn't say (for once) - was that I don't give a rat's patootie about getting the titles. I like the training process and accomplishing the difficult handling sequences. I am not going to change my handling or try and slow my dog just to get Qs and titles. My dog is having a great time with agility, and I am not going to mess with that.

 

Jovi

Does your dog already have a running contact? If yes... why would you not want them to perform correctly? Just curious! :)

 

I like the quick releases and depending on my dogs mood while we have a 2o2o if they decide to blow them I am not going to pull so just work around it. Lol kind of like our start stays. We are good about staying 80% of the time. But if they forget it isn't the end of the world just something I need to proof the next go round.

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Does your dog already have a running contact? If yes... why would you not want them to perform correctly? Just curious! :)

 

 

Of course, I want him to perform his RCs correctly - but it is a work in progress. He has a very low success rate when training -[which I admit I should be doing more of, but I was lazy over the winter (cold weather and I don't have my own contact equipment so I have to drive somewhere to get equipment time)]. Then his success rate gets lower when we go to class. And he is a smart boy, he knows the difference between just practice and really running a course - which is one of reasons (maybe the main reason?) he is not as successful because he speeds up which can result in little mistakes that he doesn't make at home. He runs fast in practice in the backyard, his speed increases in class, then at a trial, his adrenaline is really pumping so he is even faster. And interestingly, I found out a couple of weeks ago when I went to the one NADAC trail I attend each year (it's only 30 minutes away) that he speeds up even more on a NADAC course vs. an AKC course. Probably because it is more open and flowing.

 

I think that I don't trial enough for him personally. He isn't "trial-hardened". In any sport (individual or team), you have to compete consistently within the competition environment to get rid of the competition jitters (the negative effects of adrenaline). Some people are better able to deal with them than others, and some never get over them.

 

I could bypass the RCs in class until he has a higher success rate at home. I did that for a while, but then started doing the contacts in class because ... I don't know. Maybe not the best idea.

 

Anyway, now that spring is here, I hope to get more RC training done. (Although right now, we are getting a snow/sleet covering. :( )

 

Jovi

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I like working toward titles. I've always been a very accomplishment oriented kind of person. Worked hard for the A's in High School, etc. I like to write out the entire alphabet soup after my dog's names from time to time and to take stock of all that we have done together.

 

But I've reached a point right now where I am very inclined to test the waters, take risks, and gamble the entire Q to see what Tessa and I can really do out there together. It is incredibly fun, and different. She doesn't like it when I run conservative - it confuses her. Better to put it all on the line with her.

 

I enjoy working toward titles, and she and I are definitely CATCH bound! But somehow, just recently, the desire to go out there and really see what we can do as a team - to test ourselves against every course - has taken priority.

 

It's different . . .

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I am not going to change my handling or try and slow my dog just to get Qs and titles.

 

Jovi

 

I get that and totally agree but on the subject of contacts a stopped contact isn't necessarily slower than a RC taking the run of a course as a whole. Of course it depends how long the dog stops for and how slow it is on the down plank because the handler has trained with more of an emphasis on accuracy rather than speed.

 

But some people like consistency, some love the adrenalin rush that comes from a rare clear round because it's awesome rather than just competent. I don't know anyone who can produce near 100% thrilling consistency - speed brings errors, even for those at the top of the tree. There's room for everyone in the sport.

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A clean run will always win if they make time, after that it is time plus faults in both USDAA and NADAC.

 

It's the same in CPE. Q runs place above NQ runs. They take both time and faults into account when determining placements.

 

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I get that and totally agree but on the subject of contacts a stopped contact isn't necessarily slower than a RC taking the run of a course as a whole. Of course it depends how long the dog stops for and how slow it is on the down plank because the handler has trained with more of an emphasis on accuracy rather than speed.

 

But some people like consistency, some love the adrenalin rush that comes from a rare clear round because it's awesome rather than just competent. I don't know anyone who can produce near 100% thrilling consistency - speed brings errors, even for those at the top of the tree. There's room for everyone in the sport.

I agree with most of the first paragraph. I do think that for an individual dog, the RC is faster when compared to a stopped/quick release contact, but it is harder to compare between dogs because of the multiple variables.

 

Even though I like RCs, I am also striving to train tight turns. I have seen the Trkman video where she shows the extremely fast dog doing extended jumps with wide turns as compared to dogs that are collected into the jump and turn tightly. The wasted time with the wide turns (anywhere from ~0.2 - ~1 sec) made me a believer (even though the collected dogs looked much slower) - particularly when you consider how many tight turns might be on a course.

 

And the adrenaline rush that comes with a speedy run? Yes, I am guilty! :rolleyes: And I realize that the consistency level can decrease as the speed increases, but speed + consistency is a goal to work towards. On the other hand, I had the opportunity to run a friend's Velcro Pom, and I got a great rush from that too. Very, very consistent dog, but not much for distance skills - so if you ran the course, he pumped those little legs and ran right next to you. What a blast.

 

Jovi

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I agree with most of the first paragraph. I do think that for an individual dog, the RC is faster when compared to a stopped/quick release contact, but it is harder to compare between dogs because of the multiple variables.

 

Jovi

 

Taken in isolation maybe - and I'm talking about real RCs where the dog accelerates down to and across the off contact with a 100% consistent stride pattern as opposed to contacts where the dog just doesn't stop - but even Sylvia T has been known to lose her dog over the wrong jump because of its speed, and with speed comes the tendency to go wide, so you can't generalise.

 

But I digress yet again - sorry all.

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I think an RC is definitely faster than a stopped. It only makes sense, no matter how fast a dog is coming down to a stop there needs to be more collection to get the 2o2o or whatever stop, or else your going to break your dog if they are too much on their forehand. And then you have the re-acceleration time....

 

For an RC and thight turns well there's the thing.. If RC is defined by 100% extension, where is the dog collecting to turn? I'm sure not putting my dog heavy on his forehand to keep an extended like stride when ill be asking for a turn. hea fonna torque himself one day. You see the same thing with some dogs jumping too low of a height jump with too much speed, not using their hindquarters enough, instead landing in the front much more.

 

My running contacts will not always be true RCs, right now I'm playing around with striding and collection on thight turns, opting to find the most natural balance for him. It looks like it'll one day be a cue for how he should extend/collect into that last stride. It's a fun exploration anyway.

 

RC will be faster on a straight up obstacle performance time. But it's the challenge of training coming off of the obstacle to the next one. If your not up to that a stopped will be faster.

 

Collection versus extension. I think with enough jump training, grids, etc you can get a dog to run well in extension and collection. Transitioning safely and quickly. An extended dog will be fast but wide... Collection gives you thight turns but loses some speed... I think the balance comes in training the dog to effortlessly transition between the two with quick acceleration speed.

 

On that note... A lot of people are going to be/are moving away from grids, as a big name announced that she has.... I think that is foolish. Imagine not doing gymnastic work with a young jumper (horse). I think they are paramount to a dog safely running well, learning when and how to extend and collect on their own without our influence and to read jumps.

 

I am so thankful I did many years of show jumping before agility. I hope my dogs body thanks me one day too.

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A very clear explanation of why it isn't a simple case of Method 1 is better than Method B. I can't disagree with anything you say, especially the last sentence.

 

I think the answer between RC and 2o2o is to train both as distinct behaviours, not to confuse the criteria for each. It seems to work for people I know who have done that and it seems preferable not to teach one and then the other. Teach both at the same time but in isolation from each other.

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