Freeman 101 Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Regarding Silvia Trkman and start line stays, She has stated that La has a start line stay at most trials, but has a tendency to break her stays at the really important trials! And of course, if we had the opportunity to compete in the levels that she does we would never pull our dogs off course at these sort of trials! I only compete in local trials, so if my dog breaks a start line stay, I do end the run. But whether you do this or not really depends on the dog's motivation. My own dog has only broke start line stays twice, and he really learned from this. On the other hand, I don't think this is a good option for less motivated/more sensitive dogs. I've done the same with missed contacts, and my dog has really awesome contacts. But FYI, if you want to be in fashion, running everything seems to be in vogue (running start lines, running contacts). Also, I read a comment that Sylvia stated about how Americans use start line stays, and I admit I'm guilty of this. She stated we do these huge lead-outs, release our dogs, and then wait until our dogs catch up to us before turning and running! Doing this makes absolutely no sense, so if we do have start line stays we should have the ability to turn and run once the dog is released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 14, 2013 Report Share Posted December 14, 2013 Also, I read a comment that Sylvia stated about how Americans use start line stays, and I admit I'm guilty of this. She stated we do these huge lead-outs, release our dogs, and then wait until our dogs catch up to us before turning and running! I luurrve Silvia Trkman, (I was incredibly fortunate to participate in a few of her workshops when she was in this country about 3 years ago.), but not sure that I am seeing the same propensity to wait for the dog to catch up in the high-level handlers. I see it plenty in the lower- level handlers. I used to do it ALL the time, but after constant reminders from my instructor (and seeing myself on video once or twice), I made it my mission to train myself out of it. (I was guilty of watching my pretty dog running towards me and thinking "Awesome, I finally have a fast and driven agility dog. It's great to watch him run. Oh SH*T. He is past me.") I think that as I have built more confidence in my ability to better handle his speed, my lead-outs have become shorter. And, the courses my instructor sets for the class have become a little more twisty-turny as the class advances - so the long lead-outs are no longer necessary. I am also one who believes that you should do what works for you and your dog regardless of the current popularity of a specific handling technique or system. Yes, there will be challenges here and there where a specific handling technique will be the best way to navigate through it, but I think that 90-95% of the courses are very open to individual interpretation. Not to say that everyone will have the fastest time (there ARE usually only one or two ways to handle a course to achieve the speediest time), but you can still have fun and run a good course using what works for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 Yep, agreed. And Silvia makes up for her lack of start line stays in other areas. Look at those weave sends! Although she's known for her running contacts her weave sends are totally awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted December 15, 2013 Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 I doubt it's just Americans who have a tendency to stand like a stone and watch their pretty dog, I am sure there people all over the world doing it : ) for me it was lack of trust. I had been competing with Brody for 2 years when I started to train with higher level trainers with Rievaulx, and it was simply that I had not trusted Brody to go over the jump (for good reason he preferred kissing ring workers and flirting with judges) if I did not micromanage so with R I was expecting the same and it was a very hard habit to kick. Brody had no foundation training, Rievaulx being the second dog lots... Sylvia Trkman has also written her blog that she thinks its her tight turns Cik/cap not the running contacts that have given her an edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 Sylvia Trkman has also written her blog that she thinks its her tight turns Cik/cap not the running contacts that have given her an edge. On her Cik/Cap DVD, she also points out, logically, that one of the reasons that the cik/cap turns can be more important than running contacts is because there are often more occasions to use cik/cap than running contacts on an agility course. For example, there is one DW and one AF (and of course the teeter, but the running contacts are more relevant to the DW and the AF), but the course layout may offer the opportunity to use 3 or 4 or more cik/cap turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 Something to consider with this. Dogs like consistency; black and white. Do you think it's fair to your dog that they have different expectations in one environment versus another for the same behavior? Most definitely this, and this is what some of us have been trying to impress on speckle legged dog. I don't care whether she decides that she is going to give up trying to train a start line wait; time will tell how often she will wish she had one and it will depend on what type of courses she meets. But whatever is being trained anything less than 100% consistency (as far as humanly possible) is not fair on the dog and won't produce a dog that understands what is expected of it in all situations. I'm sure ST isn't guilty of inconsistency with her starts. Her cues will tell the dog whether she wants a start or not. It's her decision, not the dog's. One of the most consistent young handlers here has trained her latest dogs both running and stopped contacts and uses them when needed. (I believe Susan Garrett claims to do the same.) Again, not inconsistent as they are both on cue. What is inconsistent and confusing for the dog is sometimes to let broken waits or blown contacts pass without any consequence. In fact, for a keen dog being allowed to continue it is likely to be positive reinforced for doing something wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 One of the most consistent young handlers here has trained her latest dogs both running and stopped contacts and uses them when needed. (I believe Susan Garrett claims to do the same.) Again, not inconsistent as they are both on cue. I've never understood why more people don't do this. Coming out of Freestyle, where we train a lot of similar and nuanced behaviors and the dogs learn to differentiate, it has always made good sense to me to train both a running and stopped contact, practice both, and then choose the one you want either in practice or competition, based on handling needs in a given course. I would actually expect that a dog that has both a well trained stop and a well trained running contact would end up having more reliable contacts since he or she would be attuned to handler directive regarding the contact behavior, and so would be far less likely to miss the contact altogether. I'm not saying these dogs would never miss contacts, but I would expect a higher level of reliability in general. I'm not surprised to hear there are top level handlers that are doing this, and I hope it becomes a lot more common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogrsqr Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 I appologize, I am beginning to believe that "startline stay" is more of a religious practice than an agility technique. I've not been doing agility long and I must appologize for despising the ground "startline stay" walks on; though I still do. Sorry that me and my shelter dog stink so bad (actually she could use a bath). I'm not sure where this came from either. Don't read too much into these kind of discussions; it's easy to misunderstand someone when you can't see their face or hear their voice. My first agility dog was a BC mix with no start line stay. I was green, she was very particular and I caught a lot of heck for late commands and being too slow. I loved that dog to pieces and would give back all her titles and ribbons for a chance to run her again. There is no experience like your first agility dog no matter what. You may have "better" (meaning easier to run, more accomplished etc.) later but your first agility dog is special. It's the one you learn everything with, it's the one that makes you a better trainer, and personally I think that all creates a special bond that can't be duplicated. You only have ONE first agility dog. No matter what, enjoy the journey! Gina & Miss Maggie May (or may not) waiting for me at the start line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 You may have "better" (meaning easier to run, more accomplished etc.) later but your first agility dog is special. It's the one you learn everything with, it's the one that makes you a better trainer, and personally I think that all creates a special bond that can't be duplicated. You only have ONE first agility dog. No matter what, enjoy the journey! Exactly!!! In retrospect, I don't care in the least that my first Agility dog didn't have a start line stay beyond me taking a few steps, that she didn't do rear crosses, that she sometimes didn't run when she wasn't in the mood, that she would lay down at the end because she didn't want to leave the course, or that I had to babysit her weaves and contacts. I don't look back and wish any of that away. I only think of her constantly thumping tail, the happy sparkle in her eyes, her quirks that made her extra loveable, sitting with her on her mat before we went into the ring and her flopped there - totally relaxed, and the way it felt to run with her. It was more like dancing than running. She was my first Agility partner. We learned to love this game together. No other dog I ever run with, no matter how skilled, will be part of my first Agility experience. Enjoy the journey doesn't even express it . . . savor ever step. You will never have this dog again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 She was my first Agility partner. We learned to love this game together. No other dog I ever run with, no matter how skilled, will be part of my first Agility experience. Enjoy the journey doesn't even express it . . . savor ever step. You will never have this dog again. That is how I feel about my first agility dog. I had such a bond with him and he was my partner in the truest sense of the word. I still miss that dog after 9 years. He had a fine start line stay, but it demotivated him so I didn't use it. Our biggest obstacle was his severe shyness. None of that matters. The dog is what matters. The relationship you have with that dog is what matters. The fun you have together is what matters. Letting your dog shine is what matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted December 16, 2013 Report Share Posted December 16, 2013 I was smart and decided that instead of one first agility dog, I'd start two of them at the same time. Both different as night and day! One thing is for sure.... I'm learning constantly. I definitely don't want to have any regrets especially with my older girl. She's coming up on 10 and it is just a blast to run her and I'm thankful for every run. She is so talented but I know with her age there is no telling how long we will be able to run. She didn't even Q till the ripe young age of 9. So glad I decided to try agility 'for fun' with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Laurelin, That's a very touching comment about your 10 y/o border collie. I hope you have many years left with her. Freeman will turn 9 in March, and he hasn't slowed down a bit, so I hope we have many years left together as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Sorry the 10 year old is a papillon and not a BC. She's a very good dog though and we have a lot of fun together. Crazy old dog. My friend is running her sweetheart border collie that is almost exactly the same age. She's still going strong too. Old dogs are the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman 101 Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Apologies for getting off topic. Laureline, I see you were the one who asked me about my Pyr Shep. Did you get a Pyr Shep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurelin Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 No, but I am on a list for one from a breeder I really like. I may end up actually waiting one more dog for a few reasons. But I've enjoyed meeting them and talking to breeders. They're great dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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