Why do "ABC" owners say this?

[terrecar]

This happens everywhere though...I run into people all the time who lecture me about how Border Collies make terrible pets and need continuous exercise and a job. I have had at least one Border Collie since 1991, and I get this all the time as if I didn;t know about my own chosen breed. My current dog has some fear issues and this makes it so much worse...every time I manage something like asking someone not to reach down to pet him or telling the tech I will restrain him I get lectured about how I just need to provide him with more exercize blah blah blah.

 

I got the same warnings, only to find out that Hannah has about the same energy level as the German Shepherds I've had, and she is decidedly less spasmodic than the Transvestite Smooth Fox Terriers. Her reaction to a couple of Whippets zipping around gleefully at a dog park was one of seeming embarrassment for them (although she does love a good run with the Greys). Of course, I can't extrapolate from this one dog experience, given the variances among individual dogs. Hannah may very well be atypical. Still, I probably would not have taken her had I not been within days of (semi) retirement, because I was intimidated by the warnings.

 

Unfortunately, one of the few past experiences I had with a Border Collie was pulling up to a PWC breeder's kennel and watching this wild, reactive and hyperactive, black and white blur of a dog--a Border Collie--running around the perimeter of the fence like she was on methamphetamine. I think my jaw dropped when the owner said "That is the nicest dog". I didn't see it. I saw crazy wrapped in fur. Looking back, I see a dog that needed more than to be a yard ornament.

 

In any case, until Julie's posts putting it in perspective, I was anxious about doing right by the dog, which I thought meant hours of excercise. I still take the commitment to excercise the dog seriously. I'm just more like Dr. Katz on better drugs these days.

 

As for agility, I think I've decided that I'd rather not have Hannah hyped up, since she has a tendency toward some reactivity that I've worked hard to eliminate with calming influences. I may have agility all wrong though. Perhaps some agility folks can enlighten me and I can pick it up again (for fun), since we have worked through most* of the reactivity.

 

And...As for people with much less experience than I have who want to be "helpful" with advice on a specific breed or on dogs in general, I take into account the content (fresh perspectives can occasionally come from the inexperienced), discard the bullshit, and snicker behind their backs at the hubris if warranted.

 

 

* I say most because she did scare the hell out of the yard guy the other day, who unwisely appeared without any warning noise. Thankfully she's all bark, though I doubt that helped his heart condition.

[mum24dog]

Agility was invented by Working Trials people and in the early years there were a lot of GSDs taking part.

 

It soon became apparent that BCs were more suited to the sport and they took over.

Since our system in the UK was totally win based (and still is mainly) and Qs don't come into it it was all the more important to get a fast and agile dog for the ambitious handler and GSDs are now rare in the sport.

 

ABC classes are also a UK thing, but there aren't many scheduled. ABC dogs can qualify for Olympia and Crufts and now because of the spread of Medium BCs in the south in particular there are Medium ABC qualifiers as well. I'm ambivalent about them; on the one hand I find them somewhat patronising, on the other I like to see a variety of dogs taking part.

 

I admire those who stick with their favourite type of non BC dog even if it probably means they won't reach the top. I guess the taking part is more important to them than being part of the elite. Those that can do both are very special.

 

My daughter is ambitious and always wanted a BC to compete with so eventually we got one in the full knowledge of what wemight be letting ourselves in for. She didn't do it for an easy life and has sweated blood to get him where he is - a fact that is recognised by those people with crazy dogs who ask her to run them for them.

 

My next dog will be probably be a BC - not because they are my favourite breed because they aren't, but because the chances of not having to work hard at motivating a dog are greater. Hounds of any description are more my thing (but I'm very open minded) but I've paid my dues working with difficult dogs over the years (not that I consider hounds difficult per se) and at my advanced age I think I deserve an easier one. I have trouble enough motivating myself nowadays never mind a dog.

 

I'm not stupid and I know there are no guarantees but I don't want an agility start - I don't have the physical or mental attributes to progress to the top myself and if my dog was better than me I would have to give it to my daughter to run. I want a sociable, middle of the road potentially versatile dog, that's all, and that's what I will ask my rescue friends to look out for. There are so many more BCs needing homes than anything else in my world and the right dog for me is out there somewhere.

[mum24dog]

I get annoyed with people who get border collies for the sport mostly because they then become self-appointed border collie experts and sometimes they make the foolish mistake of telling me about the breed.

 

What about the instant "experts" who have had a couple of herding lessons?

 

I get exasperated with people who make generalisations about any breed. All dogs are individuals and not all BCs are wonder dogs. The BC that is least interested in agility in our club was bred by a top trialler, as was the dog that is one of the most promising (different breeder).

 

I may only have had one BC of our own but I spend my life around them and most of my friends have one or several from all types of background. For agility purposes, working bred dogs are not superior to sport bred and the reverse is also true. Individual dogs either have what it takes or they don't wherever they come from, and whether they reach anything like their full potential is down to the handler.

[mum24dog]

The Kennel Club has started a new program that allows people to move up based on points vs. wins, I guess, so it's not quite the issue that it used to be.

 

The system has been in place for a few years now and has allowed progression on points up to Grade 5 (of 7). From next year it will be only up to Grade 4.

 

The majority still want to win out but I know quite a few people who have opted to use the points system if they have a competent but not super fast dog (BC or not). It mostly happens from Grade 3 as that is the largest Grade and therefore hardest to win out of. Experienced handlers who have had success with previous dogs start at Grade 3 with new ones.

[alligande]

I do think sports bred does play a role in the bad rep. part as a number of the dogs I have met that have been are nuts and not good house pets. That said it might be what their training is. I have had three border collies, and in the last couple of years a few fosters, all of them have been easy to live with as pets. I do not know if it is because house manners are more important than anything else to us or that we have very quiet house, where chilling and calm are important. With the use of a crate all the border collie fosters learned to settle easily and were soon just hanging out. That said all have them have quirky and sometimes down right bizarre but I think that is what makes living with a Border Collie fun, they are all indivuals.

 

But back to ABC, Aussies and Shellties should also be excluded as I have seen plenty of them beating border collies. I always come back to horses, you would not try to go show jumping with a heavy horse, there are horses for every job, just like dogs. Show jumping is really the closet equivalent to agility, not a "natural sport" but utilizes the animals natural talent, many people show jump at a local level with horses that will not win but they have fun, same with dogs, but if you want to excell you need a different partner. When I was in England recently we went to a country show, and there was a formation riding team, on heavy horses and to my mother and I it just looked like very hard work, those riders were working really hard to keep those horses trotting, when I ride I would rather be more concerned about stopping than starting and I guess I like my dogs the same way.

[Sue R]

What about the instant "experts" who have had a couple of herding lessons?

What about the instant "experts" who have had a couple of (fill in the blank) lessons (about anything)? I think it's human nature but the smart people keep their mouths shut (except to ask thought-out questions) and their ears open.

[mum24dog]

What about the instant "experts" who have had a couple of (fill in the blank) lessons (about anything)? I think it's human nature but the smart people keep their mouths shut (except to ask thought-out questions) and their ears open.

 

Very true. I was just asking the question in the context of these boards.

[juliepoudrier]

Mum24dog (Pam?),

FWIW, most of use who are experienced in the stockdog world give no more credence to the instant experts than experienced people in the agility world. As Sue noted, such people exist in all walks of life, and while they may influence some folks, those who know better, well, know better. In fact, our community is so small that pretty much everyone knows everyone, so instant experts are pretty easy to spot.

 

If your comments about instant experts are directed at working dog people suggesting that sport folks buy from working breeders, I think the argument isn't that they will get an individual dog that is an agility star, but rather that by supporting working breeders, puppy buyers would be encouraging the breeding of dogs that aren't being bred for just a few of the characteristics that define the entire breed. Just as no one can guarantee that a pup from a working breeder is going to be the next International Supreme champion, they also can't guarantee that such a pup will win the top honors in agility. But I suppose we don't need to digress to breeding strategies here.

 

Alligande,

you would not try to go show jumping with a heavy horse

 

I know he was not a truly heavy horse, but he spent the first part of his working life as a draft horse--have you read The $80 Champion? It's an exception of course, and he wasn't a heavy draft breed, but still a great story!

 

I'm with you on needing brakes instead of having to push, push, push. In the latter part of my show career I was doing dressage (and showing for someone else), and I really did not enjoy being put aboard horses that made me work to keep them moving!

 

And actually the same could be said of working (stockdog) dogs. I would rather need to slow the dog down than have to beg it up on its stock!

 

J.

[Maralynn]

or telling the tech I will restrain him I get lectured about how I just need to provide him with more exercize blah blah blah.

 

Wow. I can't imagine that. The staff at my vet's office have always been quite accommodating and I restrain my dogs for most everything. My dogs are used to being handled by me so I figure why turn them over to a person that they see twice a year?

[rushdoggie]

Wow. I can't imagine that. The staff at my vet's office have always been quite accommodating and I restrain my dogs for most everything. My dogs are used to being handled by me so I figure why turn them over to a person that they see twice a year?

 

I'm veering off topic here, I apologize, but yes, its very annoying. I love my vet, he doesn't own the practice (but I understand someday he will, he has worked there since he was a HS student cleaning cages) but hes there the most. Hes kind, soft spoken, is agreeable to my sometimes weird requests, doesn't push for the most invasive/expensive and my dogs trust him.

 

But some of the support staff are just awful. They are condescending, rude, and lecture.

 

I have to ask to speak to certain techs directly on the phone because there are a few who dispense advice that they shouldn't (like when I called on a Friday morning about my old dog, who had been in for a visit 48 hrs before was still vomiting after the meds and bland diet, still vomiting, one young lady told me the clinic was just too busy to squeeze me in and that I should wait until Monday and just stick with the bland diet and was very huffy when I insisted the vet call me back because he was the one who said "if hes not better by Friday bring him in) and lecture me on dog behavior (like that I was teaching my small dogs to be afraid of walking because I bring them into the vet waiting room in Sherpa bag carriers as I don't see the need to expose them to strangers dogs and germs if I am capable of holding them in a carrier. When I told her why I kept them in the carrier until we got to the exam room she told me I was "ridiculous" and said "dogs don't belong in pocketbooks").

[Root Beer]

I get exasperated with people who make generalisations about any breed. All dogs are individuals and not all BCs are wonder dogs.

 

Exactly.

 

I also get exasperated with people who make generalizations about the owners/handlers of any breed. All handlers are individuals and not all Border Collie handlers have them just because they want to be competitive in Agility.

 

I got my first Border Collie because I discovered that Border Collies looked a lot like our mutt, and I liked their look. Not the most laudable of reasons, but a fact, all the same. Agility wasn't on my radar - I didn't even know that such a thing existed yet. I came to love Border Collies for their own sake as I got to know them, and if I were to make a list of the traits that I appreciate most about the Border Collie, Agility skills would actually not be as high on my list as one might presume.

 

There are, of course, those who have chosen to train and handle Border Collies in Agility because they want to be competitive. Some of them are successful and some crash and burn. Not all Border Collies are suited for Agility - there are plenty of us on these boards that know this firsthand. And not all handlers are equipped for the challenges that actually exist in training and handling a Border Collie in Agility. I certainly wasn't on my first attempt. To be fair, I was new to the sport, new to training, and working with my first Border Collie at the same time. But the "easy-point and shoot-any handler could run this dog" stereotype certainly didn't prove to be true in my case. I did much better in my second attempt with a mutt who had more in common (from a training/handling perspective) with many of the types of dogs that aren't typically as suited for Agility as Border Collies are supposed to be.

 

Dogs are individuals. People are individuals.

[MrRipley]

Sadly, I have noticed this sentiment mainly at AKC agility trials. Eh, whatever. I don't personally enjoy AKC agility for a number of reasons, but one of the things I DO enjoy about it is seeing the variety of breeds competing that I don't usually see at a USDAA trial. I also see a lot different breeds being quite competitive and beating border collies - Port Water Dogs, Goldens, Labs, GSDs, Tervs, Malinois, Poodles... to name a few specifically.

 

My first 2 agility dogs were not bc's -- Anna was a black lab-ish mix who was not really built to be an athlete (and not adopted with the intention of doing agility) but we learned together and she became great fun to run. Sadie is a sheltie/bc mix who I DID adopt with the intention of training her in agility... she is now retired due to anxiety issues that we never really overcame.

 

Ripley is my first border collie and I definitely adopted him with agility potential in mind. And I definitely have to say it is more thrilling, way different, and a huge rush to work with him. I worked very hard training him, but he is naturally easy to train. He loves being engaged with me in a way no other dog has. He craves a very close relationship with me and I find that very appealing, whether we are participating in agility or not.

[Ooky]

This happens everywhere though...I run into people all the time who lecture me about how Border Collies make terrible pets and need continuous exercise and a job. I have had at least one Border Collie since 1991, and I get this all the time as if I didn;t know about my own chosen breed. My current dog has some fear issues and this makes it so much worse...every time I manage something like asking someone not to reach down to pet him or telling the tech I will restrain him I get lectured about how I just need to provide him with more exercize blah blah blah.

 

I get this too, the BCs are terrible pets line. I don't care anymore that they think I know nothing about my own dog breed or maybe even my own dog. And you know what, with at least a majority of dog owners I've ever known, they are RIGHT. A border collie or even my Odin would be a terrible pet. For THEM. So when I hear this type of stuff now I actually smile and agree. This always puts these types off, because here I am with my well trained, friendly, kid-safe border collie going "Yes, you're right, they make TERRIBLE pets. I don't reccommend them at all." And I give Odin a little pat. While more often than not their atrocious little dog barks and lunges and flops around at the end of the leash like an idiot trying to biet my dog or my toddler, or their goofy untrained lab takes off and can't be called back. It seems to shock them so much that usually I am then able to avoid any lectures about how I need to excercise him more and/or really shouldn't have him unless I live on a farm.

[Shetlander]

I get this too, the BCs are terrible pets line.

 

I do too and I attribute it to what I call the "Border Collie Hype" that is very established out there. People who see Quinn in the car at the gas station, around my neighborhood on walks with me, at the beach, at my office, etc. will comment on how much exercise they need and how most people shouldn't own them. I just agree that they are not for the casual owner, which I feel is true but then I feel all dogs deserve an owner who offers them exercise, time, attention, training and affection. I'd actually rather hear the hype than people who have no business owning a geriatric pug telling me that they want to get a Border Collie because they are "great with kids" or easy to train or so smart or handsome.

 

My favorite discussion on the subject of Border Collies needs was at the office where a dog loving visitor at the front desk went on at great length about how hyper they are and how much exercise they need and they aren't good pets. And the whole time the guy was telling me the many cautionary tales he had heard, Quinn was standing at my side, relaxed and mellow. He stopped mid recitation to say, "But…your dog…doesn't seem hyper at all."

[Kelleybean]

I figure the ones that lecture about what terrible pets BC"s are, probably would be terrible owners so I just agree with them that they are definitely not for everyone. As for the agility ABC's go, I've often thought that running a basset hound would be SOOOOO much easier! If you are really slow like me, a fast BC can be a real challenge!

[alligande]

Alligande,

 

 

I know he was not a truly heavy horse, but he spent the first part of his working life as a draft horse--have you read The $80 Champion? It's an exception of course, and he wasn't a heavy draft breed, but still a great story!

 

I'm with you on needing brakes instead of having to push, push, push. In the latter part of my show career I was doing dressage (and showing for someone else), and I really did not enjoy being put aboard horses that made me work to keep them moving!

 

And actually the same could be said of working (stockdog) dogs. I would rather need to slow the dog down than have to beg it up on its stock!

 

J.

I remember reading a review about the book, now I will have to hunt it down. When I was little there was a 14.1 pony that went to the olympics for Great Britain, won Hickstead and all sorts international events, I have vague memories of watching show jumping on television and this little horse pulling itself over these huge jumps: there are always exceptions to proper breeding

[ChantalB]

I'm a BC newbie, my current (and first) is 3 and a half, so that's all the experience I got with them. But He is my first "me" (none family) dog and I got him because of agility. I had never done agility, but I wanted to badly and wanted a dog that had "go" and mist importantly a dog that loved his job. I came from show jumping, and I'm a thoroughbred person. Give me a fast crazy TB anyday. No brakes? That's okay we will worry about that later, I love the "go". To me border collies seems to be the dog equivalent of this.

 

And seeing a dog herding for the first time, well that just sealed the deal.

[mum24dog]

As for the agility ABC's go, I've often thought that running a basset hound would be SOOOOO much easier! If you are really slow like me, a fast BC can be a real challenge!

 

Quite the reverse - a slow dog that needs to be encouraged all the way round the course and doesn't work independently is exhausting to run.

 

Even for a slow handler (like me) a fast dog can be easier to handle. For one thing you don't have to go to every obstacle with them - you can take short ciuts to be in position where you need to be. Train a wait and good directional commands and you shouldn't have a problem.

[SecretBC]

Have to agree with that. I am exhausted after working with Secret (our training sessions are under 10 minutes) because of all of the cheerleading, tugging & playing I do to keep her up. I also put on more miles with her because she does best when I stay ahead and near to her.

 

My small dog is my fastest dog (especially when you compare leg length) and I am rarely winded with him. He requires no effort and I am able to use more distance with him without sacrificing speed.

 

Fast dogs are a lot less work!! They come with their own quirks (Kaiser has a lot....), but overall they are less tiring. You may have to hustle on course with a fast dog, but you'll be on the course a good 10 seconds or more less than the person losing their breath cheering on their slow dog.

 

This was all glaringly obvious to me on the first course at NADAC Champs in 2011 -- It was 40 obstacles long and everyone was moaning and groaning. I (not a fit person, by the way) got through it easy-peasy with Kaiser and didn't understand what all the fuss was about. I could have used an oxygen tank when I got off the course with Secret.

[SS Cressa]

Idk i think both type of dogs has theire own challenge. And depending on the course the faster one could have the advantage or they could be a disadvantage. Troy is my more honest boy and some courses he nails them vs Cressa where the same spots can be more of a negotiations from 6 jumps back. I already have a hard time breathing but some course just cause you have to be in certain spots to cue for the next obstacle i am more out of breathe with Cressa then Troy. But Troy is more my pace and waits for directions vs a girl who can figure it out by herself.

[alligande]

From my limited experience, running the fast dog requires a lot more handling skill, better timing etc and I do run flat out so I am puffing, but running my slow but extremely accurate dog is exhausting, we can do the course in twice the time and from all the chearleading, bouncing up and down etc I am truly worn out.

[Root Beer]

From my limited experience, running the fast dog requires a lot more handling skill, better timing etc and I do run flat out so I am puffing, but running my slow but extremely accurate dog is exhausting, we can do the course in twice the time and from all the chearleading, bouncing up and down etc I am truly worn out.

 

I like both, although I think I will always have something of an affinity for a velcro dog just because it will always remind me a little bit of Maddie. That in spite of the fact that I had to run so much more with her.

 

But I am also enjoying learning how to handle faster dogs. I'm finding it a worthy challenge. It feels great when it comes together, but when I get it wrong - well, it's a lot less forgiving!! :D

[SS Cressa]

From my limited experience, running the fast dog requires a lot more handling skill, better timing etc and I do run flat out so I am puffing, but running my slow but extremely accurate dog is exhausting, we can do the course in twice the time and from all the chearleading, bouncing up and down etc I am truly worn out.

 

How would it required more handling skills? Or can you explain what you mean by handling skills?

 

>.< i am better at running fast dogs then velcro dogs. Its was kind of surprising even with my sister baby dogs tha ones that were faster i was able to handle better vs the more velcro dogs which my sister does better with.

 

For me the velcro dogs require more precise handlings vs the fast one that you can "point and go".

[alligande]

How would it required more handling skills? Or can you explain what you mean by handling skills?

 

>.< i am better at running fast dogs then velcro dogs. Its was kind of surprising even with my sister baby dogs tha ones that were faster i was able to handle better vs the more velcro dogs which my sister does better with.

 

For me the velcro dogs require more precise handlings vs the fast one that you can "point and go".

 

When I trialed and trained with Brody, I had all the time in the world to get a front cross in, or decide that something was not going to work, and change my plan. Brody is not a velcro dog, just slow and accurate and really good at covering my butt... there was no need to be concerned about front cross lines etc, as long he was focused to finish a course, came down the Aframe and did not go and flirt with the judge we usually made time but we were not going to rock anyones world. My husband who is Brodys human has been to one agility class, came to a trial ran two classes Qd in both and won tunnelers... as long as he kept running and giving Brods a vague idea where to go Brody did his part.

 

Now I have a large, fast and very handler focused dog where there is no time to think about what I am doing.... I have to know the course have a solid plan, maybe a backup in a couple of areas, and just go for it . If my front cross is not placed well a bar comes down, if I am late on providing cues for the next jump, the bar comes down, if I am early with my cues the bar comes down. If I am not timely with my cues I get yelled and barked at, I am sure you get the idea. So my handling has come along way in the last 18 months as I have learned more and more. I have chosen not to use/train NADAC style distance as I love the challenge it has presented me to be become fitter, faster and really understand what I am doing to run flat out with my dog.....

 

The bottom line is handling Brody is like driving a chevy, reliable, accurate but you do not need to be great, running with Rievs is driving a Ferrari, an amazing adrenaline rush, but requires great timing and coordination to get right, when we get it right, it the flashy run that has people I do not know congratulating me, (and usually a first) when it goes wrong it can often be spectacular as well:D

[Rave]

For me the velcro dogs require more precise handlings vs the fast one that you can "point and go".

 

It's apples and oranges really, i.e. two entirely different sets of handling, each with their own challenges. "Point and go" works well on a NADAC course, or a Starters level course, but not so much on a Masters level course.