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I'm curious about those who say, "We don't have the distance skills for NADAC" and then just give up and don't do it anymore.

 

Is there a reason you don't feel like training any of those distance skills? They do come in handy while running courses in other organizations as well.

 

I didn't train distance skills with Maddie because it was her personality to enjoy running close to me. She never liked any kind of distance. She was such a fantastic Snooker dog because she could always be depended on to stay within a certain proximity to me even if her favorite piece of equipment was in front of her.

 

We didn't even continue to play beyond Level 1 in CPE Jackpot and the Q we got in Level 1 Jackpot (the only one needed at that level) was in a non-traditional where I could cross the line! She preferred working close. Realize, too, that she was 6 before we even started to trial. She was never really a "young" Agility dog. Had I started trialing with her when she was younger, I may have been more inclined to work distance with her, and I think she would have been far more receptive to the idea.

 

We had 4 years of trialing. I never regretted my choice to allow her to continue to work close to me. She enjoyed every other game in CPE, and Regular, heartily. Yes, I had to do A LOT more running with her than I do with dogs that will get out further away from me, but I was willing to do that for her because she liked it that way.

 

So, in that case, it was about the dog. I work distance with Dean, and I will with Tessa. I'd love to see Tessa get to a level where she could do the Gambler stuff in NADAC. That just wasn't Maddie's thing, so I went where we could focus on her strengths.

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I like running with my dog, not watching my dog go out and hopefully take the right obstacle.

 

We do have distance as you need distance in Jackpot for CPE. I also don't like the lack of equipment in NADAC and the tunnel/contact discrimination gets old. So distance wasn't the only reason I quit NADAC. I also hate the hoops.

 

Last I checked, I didn't have to stay with an organization just because that's what I started with. I liked CPE better so we switched.

 

I'd rather spend my time training other skills, not just because I didn't "feel like it."

 

It was an honest question, there is really no need to get so defensive and snippy. It's something I hear a lot from people who quit NADAC and went to other organizations. So I honestly wanted to know what is so hard about teaching distance skills.

 

I never thought Secret would ever be able to handle distance. She prefers tighter courses & sequences, but since my boys do NADAC (and that's all Luke will EVER do because he turns like a yacht and needs the lower jump heights) that's where she was stuck. I didn't even start to run Chances with her until she had her Open titles in the other classes. Why bother when she wouldn't Q? She was hard to motivate in the beginning as it was and distance only made it worse.

 

Then I somehow managed to qualify her for NADAC Champs in a half a year of trialing, so I figured I'd better start to actually work on some distance skills since there is a line in every class at Champs. She didn't like it at first and it shut her down a bit, but we kept plugging away and she got better. She only missed one distance challenge down at Champs (and FWIW, about 85% of the dogs missed that one). And she even has her Elite Chances title already!

 

I'm just saying, it's not that hard if you actually work at it. I would think many border collie handlers would WANT some distance skills since the dog is often so much faster than us. It's nice if you get behind your dog on a course for whatever reason but can skill use a verbal "switch" or "out" to save your butt.

 

But I do realize that those skills just aren't needed by some -- As has been pointed out, you can get all your Q's in CPE Jackpot without ever having to do distance ever.

 

I still run with Secret 90% of the time because she prefers it and she needs the motivation -- But it's nice to have those skills because I can send her out and get into place for front crosses, which she finds most motivating and it speeds her up. And, well, Chances is my favorite class so it's nice to see her doing well there, too. :)

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I wasn't intending to sound snippy. Your post came across like I was taking a cop out from NADAC just because of that.

 

There are so many venues out there now, it's nice to be able to pick and choose. Like I said, I have 4 dogs that I actively trial with so I need to be choosey with where I want to spend my money. There is a venue for everyone and this is where we seem to fit. So no knocking anyone who competes in it, hey, most my friends do. It's just not for me.

 

My younger dogs are learning the "out" command but I don't feel the need to teach it to my oldest dog. She is a velcro dog and we have gone to numerous seminars and have had lessons on distance training (in addition to working at home), she just doesn't like it. She's almost 10 and was also a late starter to agility.

 

I will admit that the distance skills that NADAC people have are amazing, when they're trained for it...and not the point, shoot, pray method ;)

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But I do realize that those skills just aren't needed by some -- As has been pointed out, you can get all your Q's in CPE Jackpot without ever having to do distance ever.

 

Yes, technically you can. But you would end up wasting a lot of money in the process because you do not know until the briefing before the game whether it is going to be a traditional or non-traditional Jackpot. We had attempted two traditional Jackpots before we hit a non-traditional. And not all non-traditional Jackpots make the distance completely optional. I think we ran into one of those, as well.

 

That's why I elected not to play that game with Maddie at all past Level 1, rather than just signing up for Jackpot and hoping to hit a non-traditional where distance was optional. It just would have been too expensive. Had I been interested in working distance with her, that would have been different, but since I had no intention of doing so, it was just more prudent to play other games.

 

She still could have gotten her C-ATCH, because we were in Enthusiast, and you can skip a category in Enthusiast. You just have to make up the Level 5 Q's in other categories.

 

Optimally, I would have wanted distance skills, but sometimes you have to pick and choose. So, I did. :D

 

Bigger than the distance for me in NADAC - for Maddie (we just wouldn't have done Gamblers) - were the course times. She could hit the pike when she wanted to, but she normally didn't. CPE was just a better fit for her.

 

That's what I love most about this plethora of venues to choose from. You really can find the best fit for both dog and handler.

 

I'm excited to see what Tessa thinks of NADAC, and what I think of it with her. It may be a very different experience from that which I have had with Dean.

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(and that's all Luke will EVER do because he turns like a yacht and needs the lower jump heights)

 

I had to laugh at your description of Luke...that's how my oldest border collie is. I got him as a rescue at 5 and he had previous agility training at his former home. Apparently they never taught him how to turn because he is convinced he can't :lol:

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Luke's always been that way -- We started agility when he was three and he was 26"+ and 90 pounds (he's a Lab/Shepherdx). Structurally he just can't handle tight turns without hurting himself, especially now that he's a couple weeks shy of 8 years old. I got him down to 77/78 pounds (well, Addison's Disease helped with that) and we gained speed and tightened turns, but he still would never be able to do AKC without hurting himself. He is very much a NADAC dog and loves the long sweepy lines and I worry less about him getting injured there. He's not terribly careful with his body... And that would be the reason he never got to do a venue that uses slats -- every time our old training center would have the AKC equipment out he'd jam his toes. He's not very graceful. I'm pretty sure he believes himself to be about half the size he actually is.

 

I started at a facility that was very NADAC focused and also offered AKC trials, but back then AKC didn't allow mixed breeds. So truthfully, Luke never learned to turn tight/wrap in the beginning because we didn't train it. I have since worked with him at home and he really struggles. He can make it through USDAA courses, but it's hard on him and he usually drops bars.

 

But he can work 100' away from me and is happy doing it, so that's what I let him do. B) When they get old & stiff, you let them do what they want. I was thinking about doing the USDAA Veteran program with him once he turns 8, but he enjoys NADAC so much that I'll just let him stay there.

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I didn't say they were -- I simply made the statement that people at NADAC trials tend to be pretty friendly (and supportive, I'll add now).

 

If you go to an AKC trial in my town the whole air about the facility is different. People are tense. They don't talk to each other. It's very serious. Is it because they are more competitive? Who knows. But they aren't nice. It's odd how much different it is, even though many of the competitors are the same.

 

USDAA trials aren't as tense as AKC, but you do have some people who are actively cheering for people to NQ in classes like Snooker when there are SQ on the line. There has never been an instance in NADAC that I'm aware of where we would ever hope for someone to NQ.

 

Okay, maybe at Champs. :P

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I didn't say they were -- I simply made the statement that people at NADAC trials tend to be pretty friendly (and supportive, I'll add now).

 

And what does that have to do with being competitive? People at all trials I go to tend to be pretty friendly. You can have a friendly, supportive, competitive environment; I see it every weekend I trial in USDAA. I've also seen it in NADAC and CPE.

 

Not trying to pick on you, just sick of the nadac mantra I hear from more than a few nadac competitors: "we're fun and friendly and safe and you're not." It gets old, especially since it's not true.

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Not trying to pick on you, just sick of the nadac mantra I hear from more than a few nadac competitors: "we're fun and friendly and safe and you're not." It gets old, especially since it's not true.

 

On the other hand, I'm sure NADAC competitors (and I don't actually count myself as one, as I've only dabbled in NADAC) get sick of hearing that they aren't doing "real" Agility because some pieces of equipment aren't included in their courses, and that people hate hoops. I hate the teeter, but I don't take it upon myself to go around to everyone who enjoys running in venues with teeters and tell them over and over that I hate the teeter every time that venue is discussed. Yes, hoops are new-ish. They are different. But they aren't beelzebub incarnate. (No, I didn't say that you, or anyone else here, said that - I am giving a synopsis from memory of what I hear both online and from people in person)

 

I have to wonder if some of the "mantra" that you hear is in response to those charges that I hear from NADAC naysayers over and over and over and over and over . . . .

 

I'm not saying that everyone has to love NADAC I can't say I "love" NADAC. Nor that NADAC is the only fun and friendly venue out there. Of course, it's not. I enjoy training with my AKC Agility friends a lot and I'll bet trialing with them would be an absolute blast. But I can't think of another venue that gets nearly the amount of criticism (not really counting criticism of AKC here because that criticism is not really based on AKC Agility per se). I don't blame those who are invested in NADAC in the least for being proud of being fun, friendly, and conscious of safety.

 

I'm not saying this to pick on you, either. Your comment wasn't even addressed to me, I know!! But I guess this is a peeve of mine. It's more of a general response.

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And what does that have to do with being competitive? People at all trials I go to tend to be pretty friendly. You can have a friendly, supportive, competitive environment; I see it every weekend I trial in USDAA. I've also seen it in NADAC and CPE.

 

Not trying to pick on you, just sick of the nadac mantra I hear from more than a few nadac competitors: "we're fun and friendly and safe and you're not." It gets old, especially since it's not true.

 

This sounds so familiar.

 

We have one major organisation in the UK and that's the KC.

 

There are others smaller more regional ones such as Greg Derrett's UKA and another called BAA plus some of even smaller ones. On the whole they tend to be favoured by people whose dogs are not competitve under KC rules or they are competitive but they prefer the smaller size of the shows, which I can understand.

 

We do unfortunately get quite a few people taking the moral high ground and claiming that they are the ones who care about their dogs because they do things differently, implying that the rest of us don't, and of course they are friendlier. It's guaranteed to ruffle feathers.

 

I suppose I can't complain too much because we in the north of England think we are friendlier than southerners (and my southern friends agree).

 

IME all the shows I've been to, whether KC north or south, Scottish or non KC, comprise the same type of people - mostly friendly and supportive if you make the effort. The KC International Agility Festival with 20 rings is no different, neither are the foreign competitors. All groups of people include so PIAs who think of nothing but themselves but that's no reason to condemn the whole lot. Agility folk are pretty much the same the world over it seems.

 

I'm not a particularly sociable sort of person but I realised very early on that if I didn't make the effort to get to know people I'd find myself on the outside looking in.

 

Pam

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I like running with my dog, not watching my dog go out and hopefully take the right obstacle.

 

There's no "hopefully" here -

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTe84W2M-Ss

 

Coming from a country where dogs that just run with their handlers rarely get anywhere because we progress on wins rather than Qs, I find it an odd idea that all dogs aren't taught distance work from the start. (I have a dog that spends too much time near me on a course and I find it very frustrating.) Still, we will be conditioned to different expectations.

 

Surely trying to run with even a moderately fast BC is going to slow the dog down? Whenever anyone says to me that they can't keep up with their dog I always answer that they shouldn't be able to.

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We do unfortunately get quite a few people taking the moral high ground and claiming that they are the ones who care about their dogs because they do things differently, implying that the rest of us don't, and of course they are friendlier. It's guaranteed to ruffle feathers.

 

But are they really implying that the rest of you don't, or are they excited about the venues they have chosen, supportive of the mission of the venues that they have chosen, and enthusiastic about their venues of choice?

 

I run into this all the time with dog stuff. People think that because I am enthusiastic about clicker training and because I wholeheartedly believe that it is very good for dogs and I not only use it myself, but advocate it, that I am implying that all other kinds of training are bad, abusive, ineffective, etc. OK . . . Really? I hear that kind of thing over and over and over and over. And frankly, as a general thing, the implication is simply not there.

 

And I've been on the other side of this, too, so I'm not pointing fingers at anyone that I don't point right back at myself. I recently read a post on a Freestyle list that made some mild criticism of a certain mode of choreography. My immediate response was, "this person means me because I am leading a workshop on moves like this right now" . . . and then I stepped back, thought about it, and realized it had absolutely nothing to do with me and that I was completely reading an implication into the post that wasn't there. The poster was not making a criticism of me personally, nor is she taking a moral high ground of some kind, even though she obviously does not choose to approach beginning level choreography in the way that I have chosen to do so at this point. She is encouraging others to look at choreography in a different way. That's a very good thing to do.

 

I think that happens a lot with this venue stuff. I love CPE because it is friendly, it is beginner friendly while providing an appropriate challenge at each level, I absolutely love the games, and I believe in the mission behind the organization. I hope those who have an unfavorable opinion will take the opportunity to look at it in a different way when I talk up what I love best about it. I hope those who have an unfavorable opinion will at least recognize that I have found great value in the venue and maybe actually be supportive of my venue choice in the same way that I will be supportive of theirs, even if they like tighter course times, or they want refusal calls, or they want higher jump heights, or they feel the venue they have chosen is safer for their dogs, or they want a whole course made up of teeters. I don't take any of those things (OK, I totally made up the last one) as an implication of moral high ground. It works better for them and/or they like it better - OK.

 

Does that really imply that I think that USDAA people (for instance) are not beginner friendly, that the challenge that their courses provide are inappropriate, that their games are lame, and that I am completely against the mission of their organization?

 

No. It actually does not. (I haven't done USDAA yet, so I have very little opinion about it at this point) It means that CPE suits me better at this time and with my particular dogs. I am enthusiastic about CPE. I would hope that everyone who chooses a particular venue is enthusiastic about it, and in support of the best in it.

 

If one chooses to read that as a moral high ground, or takes it as an implication of criticism of their venue of choice, that truly is a shame because it is actually not true.

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But are they really implying that the rest of you don't

 

Oh yes - most definitely.

Unfortunately there is a small number of people who have embarked on a vociferous and self righteous crusade to promote their view of how agility should be conducted and they tend to influence some of those who have a vested interest because of the particular dog they have at the time.

Strangely they are not generally people with any great experience or success in competition.

We have a system where our KC allows anyone to have a say in the sport whether they have any direct connection with KC agility or not. It's not a true democracy but anyone can put forward a proposal to the Agility Liaison Council (comprised of elected regional representatives) and if there appears to be sufficient support and no compelling reasons to reject it, it may be put to the KC with a request for ratification. The most recent example is a change in our weave spacing.

You wouldn't believe the foot stamping from those who wanted a 4th jump height(often found in non KC competitions) when their proposal was thrown out. All a dastardly plot according to them and nothing whatever to do with the fact that more people took the trouble to vote against it than for.

Those who prefer KC competition tend to take a live and let live attitude because a variety to choose from is good but there is a section of the non KC competitors who don't reciprocate.

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If you go to an AKC trial in my town the whole air about the facility is different. People are tense. They don't talk to each other. It's very serious. Is it because they are more competitive? Who knows. But they aren't nice. It's odd how much different it is, even though many of the competitors are the same.

 

USDAA trials aren't as tense as AKC, but you do have some people who are actively cheering for people to NQ in classes like Snooker when there are SQ on the line. There has never been an instance in NADAC that I'm aware of where we would ever hope for someone to NQ.

 

Sounds pretty familiar to me. Although around here, the NADAC competitors aren't generally the same group of people as the AKC competitors, with a few notable exceptions. The reason is that the local club wants nothing to do with AKC, an attitude that I fully support! *wink*

 

I started in NADAC because it was most popular in my area. I have to say, though, I've found it to be exactly what I was looking for. Making course time is rarely a problem. I love the skilled class. Hoops and distance are two challenges that I feel give me good opportunities for improvement. An ultimate goal I'd love to achieve is handling a course from behind a bonus line - watching others do so successfully rarely fails to bring tears to my eyes. For now, though, I have a green dog and I'm a green handler, and the wide open flowing courses are more forgiving than the tighter USDAA courses for us. Mind you, Kit is still in novice for everything, but we'll be moving to open soon in a couple of games.

 

Here are a couple of videos for you to get an idea of what you'd be dealing with in novice.

 

Novice jumpers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1TXlKPFgaA

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Just an odd thought... am sure this isn't the spot to ask it but here goes nothing

 

I know I've been told that training for agility can interfere with herding since in agility you focus on the dog being very handler focus and learning to depend on the handler for directions. I wonder if the same is true for NADAC agility dogs?

 

Have to say that around here AKC folks are very friendly and nice. I know countless people who help out newbies on the course and the general public understand what they are seeing.

 

Usdaa drove me crazy and those long day was horrible. And the people were rude and unfriendly. I was one of the only ring crew/volunteer in the ring. Although I am pretty sure with my next agility dog we will be doing usdaa more. :-( just because its good experience and I am sure it is different then it was like. Also it shows you how your dog is doing against some tough competition/it shows how your handling and where it needs improved.(Ack don't think I am writing this well) thanks for explaining and showing examples of your chooses venue!

 

Guess I am lucky makes me want to know where you went so I can avoid those areas!

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Just an odd thought... am sure this isn't the spot to ask it but here goes nothing

 

I know I've been told that training for agility can interfere with herding since in agility you focus on the dog being very handler focus and learning to depend on the handler for directions. I wonder if the same is true for NADAC agility dogs?

 

I don't see why it would. If anything, I would think that focusing more on NADAC might create a dog that is more obstacle focused since the courses encourage more fast, independent distance work. I guess anything can happen, but I just don't see it as building too much handler focus.

 

Of course, that kind of running isn't going to get the team anywhere if the dog does not have a balance of handler focus and obstacle focus, as is the case in venues where the courses are tighter.

 

I know quite a few people who toggle back and forth between NADAC and other venues and none of them have ever expressed a concern about their dogs becoming too handler focused because of NADAC. Some of them go back and forth between NADAC and AKC or NADAC and CPE or NADAC and USDAA.

 

If you can find an event in your area, I think it would be worth a try.

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my herding trainer believes a dog can't be good in both herding and agility. on the other hand he has no real experience in agility, herding man only. ime, the 2 are so totally different that no matter which style agility you ran,nadac or cpe, it wouldn't translate to sheep. when nova sees sheep, she goes into an entirely different mode, let us say for the sake of border collies-auto-pilot. her "instinct" overtakes whatever agility/handler focus might have been trained. she is completely focused on her sheep. in fact part of our problem is getting her to believe i am a partner in this endevour and she should listen to me!

alternately, in agility, come bye and away have no meaning to her on the course, we use" turn".

in defense of her herding trainer, i would have to say she is not truly outstanding in either ;-). but much better in agility!

 

 

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I'm sure you're right. I'm just scratching my head trying to recall your qualifications in stockdog work.

 

What do stockwork qualifications have to do with the degree to which NADAC would produce a dog that is more handler focused than one would want a dog to be for other Agility venues?

 

Absolutely nothing.

 

It's an Agility question. The fact that SS Cressa referenced stockwork does not somehow imply that one would need certain stockwork qualifications to comment on it. In fact, I would say that experience in NADAC and at least one other Agility venue is far more relevant.

 

If you went on to read the full answer - which I will post here for your convenience - you will see that my comments were about Agility, not stockwork.

 

If anything, I would think that focusing more on NADAC might create a dog that is more obstacle focused since the courses encourage more fast, independent distance work. I guess anything can happen, but I just don't see it as building too much handler focus.

 

Of course, that kind of running isn't going to get the team anywhere if the dog does not have a balance of handler focus and obstacle focus, as is the case in venues where the courses are tighter.

 

I know quite a few people who toggle back and forth between NADAC and other venues and none of them have ever expressed a concern about their dogs becoming too handler focused because of NADAC. Some of them go back and forth between NADAC and AKC or NADAC and CPE or NADAC and USDAA.

 

Nothing about stockwork in any of those comments.

 

I have not done a lot of NADAC yet, but I may with my new girl. Based on the experience I have with it thus far, if I find that NADAC starts to make her too handler focused when running in other Agility venues, I will be very, very, very surprised. Judging from what NADAC I've done, I would say that if you have too much handler focus, you just aren't going to make time. Too much obstacle focus would be more of a concern of mine, but just as in all venues, a balance of obstacle and handler focus is optimal.

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Frogs and Dogs, thanks for posting those videos. They are excellent!!

 

I appreciated seeing Weavers, especially. I haven't seen Weavers firsthand since they added in the hoops and it was good to get an idea of what it is like now.

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Just an odd thought... am sure this isn't the spot to ask it but here goes nothing

 

... tells me this was intended as a stockdog question.

 

I know I've been told that training for agility can interfere with herding since in agility you focus on the dog being very handler focus and learning to depend on the handler for directions.

 

... still sounds like stockdog question to me.

 

I wonder if the same is true for NADAC agility dogs?

 

Re-worded probably looks something like this: "I wonder if training for regular or NADAC agility can interfere with herding since in agility you focus on the dog being very handler focused and learning to depend on the handler for directions."

 

In my experience with stockwork and watching agility folks put their dogs on stock for the first time ... (all dogs are different, but) in most cases, the dog adjusts. It's the agility handlers' habits that are hard to break ... like when they continue to point to where they want their dog to go, or throw their shoulders in front of the dog.

 

SSCressa, I imagine the best person to ask would be someone who works their dogs on stock and trains for NADAC agility (or perhaps even other agility venues). Maybe your herding trainer knows someone who trains both. Or ... you can ask Eileen to move the thread to where more stockdog people will see it; you might find someone who also does agility.

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"It's the agility handlers' habits that are hard to break ... like when they continue to point to where they want their dog to go,"

 

this made me laugh because it is so me! my trainer will tell me to stop waving my stock stick. "it's not a magic wand and will not make your dog go where you want her to!!"

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