Agility video

[in2adventure]

The point of this, IMO, is the dogs are subjected to getting seriously hurt for game, a ribbon and it's not their choice. Agility is not comparable to sheep or cows or any other sport that matter. I also consider sheep and cows work. A job needs to be done, weather or not. I have stood in a pen with my dog and a few sheep just for practice in weather so cold I was unreconisable in the amount of clothes I was wearing. I would not do this for agility and it's a sport I am very addicted to.

 

My every day job is similar. I have a high addrenaline, sometimes dangerous outdoor job. I do things ON the job that are way more high risk than off the job because of need and nessessity. Many of these things would never be attempted off the job just for the sake of doing them "just because" because the risk is WAY higher than the thrill of outcome. I have put my life on the line for someone elses and would never dream of putting myself in the same position for the sake of having fun trying to see if could be done.

[topnotchdog]

Thanks, Sue R. (And glad you are ok.)

 

in2adventure, my question was tangential as I was curious, and not intended to lead to comparisons. Sorry for any confusion!

 

B.

[MrSnappy]

That's why I turned it off as soon as I realized what was being "sung". Makes me wonder what the intent was to choose that particular piece of "music" for the video clip. A comment about the conditions, maybe? Or just a general attitude?

 

I don't know what the song is as I don't generally turn the sound on for videos, but maybe you should all keep in mind that the person who made the video has nothing to do with the event itself. It's just someone / a production company that filmed and produced it, not the event organizers themselves, or the competitors. Come on now.

 

RDM

[jdarling]

Come on now.

 

Sheena, if you don't want to listen to the obnoxious song, you can check out the lyrics for Limp Bizkit's My Generation. If a production company made it, I can't believe they're in business. No one is trying to say it's the event organizers or whatever. It doesn't matter who did it. Whoever made it ... it's tasteless.

[in2adventure]

Thanks, Sue R. (And glad you are ok.)

 

in2adventure, my question was tangential as I was curious, and not intended to lead to comparisons. Sorry for any confusion!

 

B.

Sorry. I thought you were comparing. My bad.

[MrSnappy]

Sheena, if you don't want to listen to the obnoxious song, you can check out the lyrics for Limp Bizkit's My Generation. If a production company made it, I can't believe they're in business. No one is trying to say it's the event organizers or whatever. It doesn't matter who did it. Whoever made it ... it's tasteless.

 

I don't doubt it - I'm just saying that tasteless or not, it has nothing to do with the actual subject, which I thought was "is it a good idea to run agility in those kinds of conditions for any reason?" While I am all for topics morphing, as they so often do, calling out the song choice of the production company who make the slo-mo video like it's further evidence that running agility in ankle deep mud is so awful is a pretty weak connection to the actual topic.

 

Makes me wonder what the intent was to choose that particular piece of "music" for the video clip. A comment about the conditions, maybe? Or just a general attitude?

This sounds like a commentary on the participants to me, and that's just ridiculous. Whatever reasons people have / had for running in conditions that some folks consider dangerous, the production company using a sketchy song to flog their video of the event isn't one of them. One production company is not the voice of the sport of agility, and while it's painfully obvious that the sport is being pooh-poohed by the sheepy people (which is fine, everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course) in this discussion, it doesn't really have to deteriorate to using some videographer's musical tastes as a jab stick at the 'sad' sport people, does it?

 

I'm sorry for telling people how to post, I don't mean to do that. It's just an observation - surely the actual subject could be debated on its own merits without red herrings like this thrown in?

 

RDM

[Rave]

The point of this, IMO, is the dogs are subjected to getting seriously hurt for game, a ribbon and it's not their choice. Agility is not comparable to sheep or cows or any other sport that matter.

 

Let's see, since we're talking about BC's here, I'm pretty sure the vast majority would want to run in any condition imaginable. It's not like you have to force a high drive dog to do anything, except quit.

 

No agility is not akin to real live honest to goodness work. But what about herding trials? Those aren't necessary and I'm sure they're run in bad weather. Should we negatively judge people who run their dogs at herding trials when it's not a dry, calm day? Because that's just what's happening here. Or should we say it's their choice and make a personal decision for our own dogs?

 

Now in local trials (be it agility or herding), it's easy to make a decision to cancel because of weather. I've had a trial canceled because of a tornado watch even though it was quite sunny and nice out. But the trial shown in the video wasn't a normal everyday local trial. So if it was rainy for a national herding event, oh say like the one that just happened, and you traveled across the country or ocean to compete and it was raining, would you pull your dog? After all, it's just for a ribbon and bragging rights. What if it was brutally hot, with a chance of dogs having heat stroke? Heat stroke can kill dogs, it certainly has an ever-lasting effect, unlike say a pulled muscle.

[in2adventure]

I've driven 500+ miles to trial my dogs and at some point, both have been pulled from one thing or another for crappy conditions. I won't run Lucia if the temps get too high and I've pulled Grady from some early morning runs because his tummy was off. Would they have run for me? absolutely! Do I think it's right to make them? absolutely not! When I compete in equine jumper classes, i had the same thought process. Regardless of how far we drove, if the ring was slippery and sloppy, we didn't jump.

 

paraniod owner? maybe, but my ego doesn't override safety.

[jdarling]

"... sheepy people ..."

 

Nice.

[MyTDogs]

Let's see, since we're talking about BC's here, I'm pretty sure the vast majority would want to run in any condition imaginable. It's not like you have to force a high drive dog to do anything, except quit.

 

My point exactly...the dogs will do whatever we ask. It is up to us to be worthy of their trust & not put them in such dangerous situations without a really good reason.

 

So I would not allow my dog to run in any trial-herding, agility, flyball, etc... that had conditions like in the video. I also choose not to work cattle with my dog (even though she is from cattle dog lines) because I feel like the potential for severe injury is greater with a larger animal and I am not a farmer/rancher. I do not NEED to work cattle -unlike Sue who has a good, valid reason for working cows with her dogs.

 

You are correct everyone has the right to do what they want with their dogs. But I too have the right to disagree with the choice.

 

Cindy in FL

[Rave]

No one said you didn't Cindy. And really, who cares what you think? or what I think? or what joe or jane or sally think? So some people think dogs shouldn't run agility in bad weather. Big deal. Some people think you shouldn't feed kibble or put dogs in crates or use a clicker. Big deal. No one is going to change their minds over what's written here anyway, so we're all just basically wasting hot air (hot fingers? lol). I'm just replying because I'm bored at work. ;-)

[CLW1]

No agility is not akin to real live honest to goodness work. But what about herding trials? Those aren't necessary and I'm sure they're run in bad weather. Should we negatively judge people who run their dogs at herding trials when it's not a dry, calm day? Because that's just what's happening here. Or should we say it's their choice and make a personal decision for our own dogs?

 

I've been competing in agility for over 10 years and I've run my dogs in just about every possible weather condition and yes, in mud like what they had at the EO this past summer. It's my choice as a handler to run my dog or not and I've definitely had runs where I scratched myself due to the conditions of either the footing or the equipment but then there have also been times when I've run my dogs and others haven't. I also know how to slow my dogs down when the footing is iffy and how to handle so that they get the best possible approaches to the equipment, contact equipment especially, but even under the best conditions dogs can and do get hurt. I don't judge any of the people who ran their dogs at the EO in the mud after spending a lot of time and money to get there. It's their personal choice to run their dogs or not.

 

I think that the backwards video is sort of cool actually and I saw the forward one right after the EO when it started making the rounds on the internet. (I can't comment on the audio since I always mute agility videos when people put them to music because usually the music is so totally inappropriate when you actually listen to the lyrics.) Watch a regular agility run in slow motion, perhaps one where a dog crashes a bar/falls of the dogwalk/crashes the tire, all with good footing - it's hard to watch. That backwards video was made for shock value.

 

I'm also a sheepdog handler and I've run my dog in mud too - so much mud that it sucked the boot off of my foot. When it's farm work and the job needs to get done you deal with whatever weather conditions you need to deal with, but if it's a trial are you going to judge people who run their dogs in less than ideal conditions? At the National Finals it was very hot and had I been running there during the week when it was in the mid-high 90's on the field I'd have been pretty worried about my dog but after all of the work, time and money it would have taken to get there I'd be pretty pissed if someone judged me for running my dog.

[BrittanyS]

No agility is not akin to real live honest to goodness work. But what about herding trials? Those aren't necessary and I'm sure they're run in bad weather. Should we negatively judge people who run their dogs at herding trials when it's not a dry, calm day? Because that's just what's happening here. Or should we say it's their choice and make a personal decision for our own dogs?

 

 

That's what I'm not getting. Herding trials are for ribbons and bragging rights too, so would you (people opposed to running agility dogs in mud) pull your dog from a NATIONAL herding event? One in which you (like someone else pointed out) prepared for all year?

[Sue R]

This sounds like a commentary on the participants to me, and that's just ridiculous. Whatever reasons people have / had for running in conditions that some folks consider dangerous, the production company using a sketchy song to flog their video of the event isn't one of them. One production company is not the voice of the sport of agility, and while it's painfully obvious that the sport is being pooh-poohed by the sheepy people (which is fine, everyone is entitled to an opinion, of course) in this discussion, it doesn't really have to deteriorate to using some videographer's musical tastes as a jab stick at the 'sad' sport people, does it?

 

I'm sorry for telling people how to post, I don't mean to do that. It's just an observation - surely the actual subject could be debated on its own merits without red herrings like this thrown in?

 

RDM

Make whatever assumptions you'd like to make. I have no idea who or what group made the video. The music was obnoxious, imo. It seemed to rather fit in with the "clips of dogs and people slip-sliding in the mud in the name of competition". The video seemed a bit "in your face" and so did the music. My assumption only.

 

As for agility, I like agility and I've done a bit strictly for fun. And thanks for assuming that the "sheepy people" are just looking for another reason to stick to the "sad" sport people. Your assumptions.

 

I happen to think agility is a great activity and just don't think that running willing, trying dogs where they are slipping and sliding, wiping out in the mud, and risking injury for a "sport" is good ownership, European championships or backyard fun. My assumption.

 

"Throwing in red herrings?" Your assumption. I was just replying to another comment about something in the video which I found obnoxious. I guess that's my age talking. My assumption.

 

RE: Working stockdogs under adverse conditions - We're extra careful if the conditions here are less-than-optimal, wet, slick, deep mud, rough ground, cold, icy, snowy. I don't compete in trials so I don't have a dog in that fight but, in general, I'd say that a dog running in a trial under less-than-optimal ground conditions is not making the same leaps, turns, and so forth that these agility dogs are making - or at least fewer of them and with less speed, in general. Not that it isn't testing, but that it is different. At least stockdog trials are proving grounds for useful dog work on stock, and not optional, fun activities, as worthy as those may be (and I think they are).

 

And, yes, I have seen people run dogs in stockdog trials where I felt they were being inconsiderate of their dog (and/or the stock) and feel that is just as wrong, whether it's heat or exhaustion or just asking too much of the dog. Good trial hosts and course directors put a cooling tank on the field when it's needed and will call off a team when the dog is not up to the task and/or conditions.

 

Take if over from here, I don't see any reason to bother with this any more.

[PSmitty]

That's what I'm not getting. Herding trials are for ribbons and bragging rights too, so would you (people opposed to running agility dogs in mud) pull your dog from a NATIONAL herding event? One in which you (like someone else pointed out) prepared for all year?

 

Good point.

[Rave]

At least stockdog trials are proving grounds for useful dog work on stock, and not optional, fun activities

 

Herding trials aren't fun and optional? REALLY??????????????? Sorry, but just because it's basis is in real work, it's still a SPORT. A competition. Most of a rodeo's events are based in real work too, but they're fun and optional SPORTING events too.

 

If you want to prove your dog's working ability, invite a few buddies over and work dogs. There's no need for points and ribbons and such to prove working ability.

[Sue R]

Herding trials aren't fun and optional? REALLY??????????????? Sorry, but just because it's basis is in real work, it's still a SPORT. A competition. Most of a rodeo's events are based in real work too, but they're fun and optional SPORTING events too.

 

If you want to prove your dog's working ability, invite a few buddies over and work dogs. There's no need for points and ribbons and such to prove working ability.

So sorry - I guess I should be deferring to a real expert on stockdogs here. Take it away!

[BrittanyS]

At least stockdog trials are proving grounds for useful dog work on stock, and not optional, fun activities, as worthy as those may be (and I think they are).

 

Purely your opinion. Stock dog trials are optional...if you want to prove your dog you really don't HAVE to enter them in a trial. Yeah, I highly recommend it to see what kind of dog you have but it is OPTIONAL in the end.

 

Good trial hosts and course directors put a cooling tank on the field when it's needed and will call off a team when the dog is not up to the task and/or conditions.

 

 

Out at the agility fields they have pools, water hoses, etc available. Most handlers have cooling 'jackets' for the dogs as well.

 

But this was not a 'normal ole trial' that people just drove a few hours to...this was a huggge national event. Sure, it's for 'fun' but most of these dogs LIVE for agility just like most herding Border Collies LIVE to work stock. I mean what were the trial coordinators supposed to do? "Sorry everyone, come back next week and we'll try it again!"

[Sue R]

Wow, I've never quite felt like the devil incarnate before. It's a new feeling. Back to our regular programming...

[Rave]

So you're a "real expert" on agility then Sue? Since when did one have to become a "real expert" to comment on something? Sure would be real quiet around here if that were the case...

 

Now if we were looking for "real experts" in sarcasm, then hey well we'd both be pretty experienced there eh?

[Sue R]

Not an expert on anything. Not like some people.

[Rave]

I'm pretty sure I never claimed to be a "real expert." Doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell the difference between sport and work, or optional and necessary. "sport" is quite taboo among the working crowd, so I understand how they would not want their competitions deemed as such, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.... ;-)

[Sue R]

We can all agree that I am not expert enough to have an opinion and make a commentary on anything relating to agility - fine with me, I admit that, and I agree.

 

And I suppose I should agree that others posting are expert enough to have an opinion and make a commentary on anything relating to stockdog work - what's reasonable, what's not; what's essential, what's not; what contributes to the future, maintenance, and improvement of the Border Collie, and what doesn't.

 

Sheepdog (and cattledog) trials may be a sport to some people, but they have a long and essential history in the development of the working Border Collie. Those who say they are irrelevant are just showing a lack of knowledge.

 

And I am just showing a level of stupidity in allowing myself to become involved in any way, shape, or form with this discussion as it has devolved. As someone one succinctly said to me, "Are you always this stupid or are you making a particular effort today?" Well, I guess I've just been making a particular effort today...

 

And, yes, some stockdog people don't like to refer to it as a sport, and many other people don't have any problem with it.

[Eileen Stein]

This thread has gone seriously astray, as well as nasty. Why is the nature of stockdog trials relevant here at all? Surely it's the nature of agility trials that is relevant, and if everyone agrees that agility trials are a fun and optional sporting event, what difference does it make whether any other type of event is or is not a fun and optional sporting event?

 

In any case, please tone it down and keep it civil.

[jdarling]

But this was not a 'normal ole trial' that people just drove a few hours to...this was a huggge national event. Sure, it's for 'fun' but most of these dogs LIVE for agility just like most herding Border Collies LIVE to work stock. I mean what were the trial coordinators supposed to do? "Sorry everyone, come back next week and we'll try it again!"

 

Why would it being a "huge national event" make a difference if the conditions are unfit for competition? If someone gets hurt, lawsuits will still fly, bones will still break, the potential for major injuries is still there, no matter what kind of trial it is.

 

(And one of the major factors people are leaving out on the difference between agility trials and herding trials besides the key differences already mentioned -- not that it's relevant in any way to this particular thread -- agility is a game of jumps and speed. If there's mud on a course at a herding trial, someone will usually throw some straw on it and call it good, or ... not worry about it because the idea is not to run the sheep, the dogs, or the handler around the course. Calm, effective movement of livestock.)