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Only one so far. Speedy and I earned the Level 1 Championship title in APDT Rally.

 

So that means you had 13 Q's in the "same" format and class, just 10 in the B versus the A. Seems with that many qualifying runs one should be proficient. Why do they call it a "Championship"? Do you have to do anything other than qualify?

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No inquisition Sue, some people are just wondering about Kristine's depth and breadth of knowledge and experience.

 

OK, here's something you probably don't know about me. I consider every experience in life something to learn from.

 

Long ago I made a resolution to never, ever belittle the accomplishments of anyone who goes into a competition ring with his or her dog, no matter what. I go out of my way at competitions to go up to people that have struggled in the ring and give them encouragement to stick with it, and let them know what good things I saw out there. Often those people will tell me about the challenges they have faced and why the very thing that might not have looked all that "big" to me was actually a big step in overcoming something that I have never personally had to deal with. Or perhaps something that I had.

 

Journey, you, and the others in this thread who have had a field day trivializing my experience, etc., have really led me to renew that resolve. I never, ever want to be the person who even thinks, "well, it's just (insert sport, title, etc. here)". If I ever find myself at that point and realize it, I'd either adjust that attitude or quit.

 

The fact is that what I have done and accomplished with the dogs I have can't be measured with titles. You don't know what work, commitment, and what amount of learning it has taken for me to get to the point I have gotten to with those dogs. And you don't know what degree of experience I have gained in the time that I have been at this. I am sure you could find an endless amount of ways to tear what I've done and what I've learned apart - you are very good at that. But that does not mean that you really have any knowledge of the true picture. In fact, it is clear to me that you don't.

 

Now I know that there are some who will read that and think that I think I'm some great trainer or something. I'm not and I don't think that I am. I have a lot to learn about training and I look forward to doing so as I continue to train and compete with my own dogs, and as I work with others who are doing so. I will continue to learn from others who have a wealth of knowledge beyond my own - those with whom I share the same basic outlook on dogs and training. There are many.

 

At the same time, there are many things that I have learned along the way. Things that I have shared that other people have benefitted from. And not because I have a certain title or experience in any certain realm, but because those things are simply helpful. I enjoy sharing those things on the board. I take it for granted that people who disagree choose to follow someone else's suggestions.

 

I am sure that posting this will add fuel to your fire (let's see . . . it's "passive aggressive" or "self righteous" or I'm "playing the victim" or it's some kind of personal attack on your dog training choices or . . . whatever, I'm sure you will come up with something interesting), but I felt that it needed to be said. Whatever the case, I have learned a few important things - none of which have anything to do with dog training - from you and the others in this thread who appear to have no other intention than to debunk my input on this forum.

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Kristine,

 

I don't think any of the people on this forum have a problem with your "ideas" or "methods" per se, even the more experienced people. It's HOW you go about things that rub people the wrong way. I think alot of people want to see you maybe just back off a bit, and stop trying to give advice as if you KNOW what you are talking about when clearly you don't.

 

#1) nobody in the obedinece/agility/flyball thread has ever asked specificly about freestyle, not in the threads I have participated in. If they did ask NOBODY would have a problem with you "Having at it". It's pretty plain to see that when someone is asking for advice on focused attention or heeling in the forum, they don't mean freestyle! And it IS different! You have NO experience setting foot in a competitive obedience ring, period. And the MAJORITY of people can agree that although Rally is fun, it's just that, fun. Not considered a high level of work in itself.

 

The funny thing is, I have NO problem with people who do rally/freestyle for fun with there dogs, GREAT! the more people out there having fun and training there dog, awesome!!! Yet, other than you, I have NEVER met a single competitor that does these activities and CLAIMS that they are a high level of work or that they can therefore teach and coach people on how to attain competition style focues heeling.

 

I TO have seen your vids on your rally runs, jus to give you a shot and see what you were all about and I HATE to say it but you really have no place trying to come off on these forums as if you can even heel in a competitive environment succesfuly! I am sure you and your dogs enjoy what you are doing together and I guess that's what's important, but from a competiton standppint your dogs are out of position, HUGELY distracted, and don't use there rear when moving AT ALL!!! And it's funny cause you JUST posted something on the thread about teaching your dog to pivot, making it SEEM like you know what you are talking about!

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I don't think any of the people on this forum have a problem with your "ideas" or "methods" per se, even the more experienced people. It's HOW you go about things that rub people the wrong way. I think alot of people want to see you maybe just back off a bit, and stop trying to give advice as if you KNOW what you are talking about when clearly you don't.

 

Hey shyshepherdess. How would you respond to me if I said that clearly you don't know what you're talking about?

 

'Cause when it comes to me, what I know, and whether or not I am capable of helping others with their training - you don't know what you are talking about! :rolleyes: Clearly.

 

Also, If you really want to see me "back off a bit", ignoring me might work a lot better than posting objections to which I am going to respond over and over and over. Just something to ponder.

 

#1) nobody in the obedinece/agility/flyball thread has ever asked specificly about freestyle, not in the threads I have participated in. If they did ask NOBODY would have a problem with you "Having at it". It's pretty plain to see that when someone is asking for advice on focused attention or heeling in the forum, they don't mean freestyle!

 

As far as I know, broader discussion on any topic in any thread is not against the board rules. If I have broken board rules by discussing heeling from a Freestyle perspective in this section of the board, I trust that Eileen will let me know.

 

If you aren't interested in discussion of topics in a broader context than that which pleases you, you are under no obligation to do so.

 

I TO have seen your vids on your rally runs, jus to give you a shot and see what you were all about and I HATE to say it but you really have no place trying to come off on these forums as if you can even heel in a competitive environment succesfuly! I am sure you and your dogs enjoy what you are doing together and I guess that's what's important, but from a competiton standppint your dogs are out of position, HUGELY distracted, and don't use there rear when moving AT ALL!!! And it's funny cause you JUST posted something on the thread about teaching your dog to pivot, making it SEEM like you know what you are talking about!

 

You see what you want to see in those videos. :D And you don't see what you are intent on not seeing. The pivot thing takes the cake. If you can watch a video of Dean and say he's not moving his rear . . . well, I don't really know what you are looking at. As for Speedy, he doesn't move his rear end the same way because he has arthritis in his lumbar, shoulders, and probably in his hindquarters. He doesn't do it because he physically can't. I realize you might view that as an "excuse", but it is really just a physical reality. The dog moves in the way that feels most comfortable to him. I would not ask him to do otherwise for anything.

 

Sure, there are plenty of things in my videos that are not the epitome of perfection. I am not claiming that they are. I also know the place where these dogs started, what we are working on as a team in each video, and what progress was apparent.

 

Here's a question for you. Do you think that your incessant attempts to get me to stop posting training suggestions and to debunk everything that I have to say makes people inclined to view you in a favorable light and listen to what you have to say?

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No inquisition Sue, some people are just wondering about Kristine's depth and breadth of knowledge and experience.

 

Well, they can't be wondering any more, thanks to her extensive answers to what sure looked to me like an inquisition.

 

Root Beer has as much right to post advice here as anyone else. She introduced her advice by saying, "In case you are interested in a cross-sports perspective, in Musical Freestyle heeling with eye contact is not required, but it is still desired by most handlers for very good reason. . . . I know you aren't specifically talking about Freestyle, but I though you might enjoy a different perspective."

 

She was upfront that she was coming from a Freestyle perspective. She did not claim experience in competitive obedience.

 

Any poster is free to respond to her advice by pointing out problems that might arise from it in an obedience context, or at more advanced levels. Or to point out reasons why it might not work, or why another way would be better, or considerations that she has apparently overlooked, or that the requirements and standards are different in competitive obedience. Posters may even reiterate their own string of titles and accomplishments to lend weight to their disagreement, and note (though not ad nauseum) her lack of experience in competitive obedience. But IMO this has long since reached the stage where attacks are personal and seem to be directed toward telling her how she should post or trying to make her stop posting her opinions altogether. That is not legitimate discussion. Please redirect your comments away from personal disparagement.

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Creds or no creds, i post these questions because i know i will get a bunch of different ideas, opinions etc. I too as a novice obedience (wanna be to my own dog) trainer feel that the more ideas i read the better i can feel out what would work best for my dog. I appreciate everyones opinion and even if it goes a different way, i can appreciate the advice. So even if any of you do not agree with what someone else says thats ok, questions on this board are made for different answers. I may be new but i do know now that i have read a hand full of different ways of doing one thing and i thank you all for giving me an option. Not every dog is the same and not every way of training is the same.

 

But i thank you all for your help and i hope my future questions to all of you (who all have more experience than i do, in any event) will come answered on a lighter note. i hope i didnt offend anyone as that would not even be the LAST thing i would want. :rolleyes:

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Creds or no creds, i post these questions because i know i will get a bunch of different ideas, opinions etc. I too as a novice obedience (wanna be to my own dog) trainer feel that the more ideas i read the better i can feel out what would work best for my dog. I appreciate everyones opinion and even if it goes a different way, i can appreciate the advice. So even if any of you do not agree with what someone else says thats ok, questions on this board are made for different answers. I may be new but i do know now that i have read a hand full of different ways of doing one thing and i thank you all for giving me an option. Not every dog is the same and not every way of training is the same.

 

Right on!!

You'll do just fine with that attitude :rolleyes:

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Well said BCkris!

I remember a time when you wanted to learn anything about training you went (as physically) to a trainer and paid your dues. In ever possible way! :rolleyes:

Now we have more and more less physical (as in virtual) access to advice, opinions and obviously much more exposure.

From all kinds of people.

In my experience this is good but also bad.

The one thing both methods have in common is that either way, it is still up to the one looking to learn to learn to distinguish what kind of method, advice, approach fits them and their animals (although that is a whole other topic for me). And the only way for them to learn is to try and simply enjoy the trip.

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Well, SINCE you are asking I have obtained 1 AKC OTCH, 2 AKC UDX's, 1 ASCA UDX, 2 UKC UD's, 2 AKC RE titles. Every dog I have competed with has been nationaly ranked in there breed in there class.

 

 

I also assist another trainer/instructor whose qualifications and accomplishments far out weigh my own and they are hugely respected in the dog community. Have helped her train/instruct and reabilitating hundreds of dogs/owners.

 

Have also trained with some of the top competitors in the country.

 

I don't compete in obedience so much anymore, have a young one I got going right now but we'll see. I have over the past couple years deeply gotten into working stock with my dogs. My dogs and I have achieved success in all herding venues and choose to focus mostly on competing in USBCHA trials.

 

Guess that's about it.

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I think the one of the main reasons for a dog looking at the handler during heeling is attention. Active, focused, engaged attention and teamwork between the dog and handler. That concept has applications to many different activities.

 

Not all dogs look up at the handler during heeling. Small dogs, such as a pug, may watch the handler’s leg and queue off that.

 

As you move up in the obedience classes, engaged focused attention and team work becomes more important. By the time you get to Utility, don’t say never, everything in the signal exercises are non-verbal. If the dog is not watching the handler and they will miss the commands (i.e drop, sit, come) and it is an NQ.

 

So take a look at your training from the standpoint of teamwork, communication, and the relationship with your dog. If you can develop those foundation skills in novice they will serve you well as you progress.

 

We are reworking many of these foundation skills (i.e. attention, heeling, fronts, finished) for Utility, because I never realized how much impact they have at the higher levels.

 

Good luck.

 

mobcmom

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Well, SINCE you are asking I have obtained 1 AKC OTCH, 2 AKC UDX's, 1 ASCA UDX, 2 UKC UD's, 2 AKC RE titles. Every dog I have competed with has been nationaly ranked in there breed in there class.

I also assist another trainer/instructor whose qualifications and accomplishments far out weigh my own and they are hugely respected in the dog community. Have helped her train/instruct and reabilitating hundreds of dogs/owners.

 

Have also trained with some of the top competitors in the country.

 

I don't compete in obedience so much anymore, have a young one I got going right now but we'll see. I have over the past couple years deeply gotten into working stock with my dogs. My dogs and I have achieved success in all herding venues and choose to focus mostly on competing in USBCHA trials.

 

Guess that's about it.

 

You know I am going to be forthright here as you have been in this thread and say that I am one of those people who has little respect for the AKC and the type of dogs that are bred for those rings. However I am going to keep an open mind and say that you have probably gained a lot of knowledge along the way and that your passion is evident and that just like others on the board who compete in areas of dog sport you're opinion is as valid as the next. That's the beauty of this board, everyone has something to offer.

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Kristine,

 

The funny thing is, I have NO problem with people who do rally/freestyle for fun with there dogs, GREAT! the more people out there having fun and training there dog, awesome!!! Yet, other than you, I have NEVER met a single competitor that does these activities and CLAIMS that they are a high level of work or that they can therefore teach and coach people on how to attain competition style focues heeling.

 

I have done CKC obedience here in Canada for a lot of years (since 1988), however, not in the last 6 as I have Border Collies and they were not eligible and I have competed in CARO Rally Obedience. CKC rally is a very watered down version of rally, so holds no interest for me.

 

Personally, I like the amout of variety of heeling work required in all levels of CARO Rally obedience - it demands more than heelwork than CKC. THe amount of heeling required in CKC I have always though was waaayy too little. THe rally obedience, becuase you are constantly changing directions etc, and heeling though cones, etc is more demanding that the heeling patterns required in CKC. Haven't watched AKC obedience for a while.

I also like the required heelwork in the Versatility class - switching sides, etc etc, but a lot of regular obedience people won't do, because they think it will screw their dogs up for regular obedience work - sort of like people that don't think you can train a dog for more than one "sport" at a time.

 

Yes, I have put Canadian OTCH titles on my dogs, with HITs, and consistently high scores, and I still assist those in my Club that want to do competitive CKC obedience competition, and want to do well, just not manage a passing score, even though I haven't been in the ring for the last 6 years. I always keep up with the current rules and regulations, so I know what changes have taken place for any of the excercises.

 

The other thing that I like in Rally over regular obedience, is that it changes all the time, instead of the exercises always being done in the same order all the time. My dogs would get to the point in CKC that as soon as the Judge said "exercise finished" they would just go over and set themselves up for the next exercise! i.e. after the retrieve on the flat, they would go over and sit in front the the Jump for the retrieve over the high jump, and in traning I never train the exercises in sequence, but once they have been in the ring long enough they know what always comes next.

 

I also think cross training helps you in everything you do with your dogs - for example, training my dog for lying down when working stock, eliminates my need to have to train the "drop on recall" in obedience training. training my dog to jump spreads in agillty eliminates my need to teach my dog the broad jump in obedience. Heelwork in obedience helps me in the snooker ring in agility. Teaching my dogs their flanks on their stock helps me send my dogs out around the agility equipment in snooker as well.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I would just like to clarify that RB is talking about freestyle dog dancing, NOT competitive obedience which I am. I am aware for the sport of freestyle, that as part of the performance dogs need to heel on all sides of the handler plus do lots of other "showier" moves. As in agility it is necessary to teach the dog to be on both side of the body. Obedience work is focused on the left side in heel position.

 

Of course the dog perfoming "fronting" exercised is critical and absolutely a part of teaching in competitive obedience. It is incormorated JUST as much as heeling into training but in a different context. When teaching the front you WANT the dog cueing and looking at your face and do all kinds of exercised to incorporate that when teaching the front, but NOT when teaching the heel. We do what you would call some heeling backwards when teaching the front but it is not called a heel or part of heeling training it is associated with teaching a front and you are using a front or come command.

 

Would you be so kind as to tell me who the trainers are you are referring to? I want to learn as much as possible for competitive obedience. I have Janice Gunn's DVD's and think she is very very good. I also have Ann Marie Silverton's as well. I have Connie Cleveland's book and I am thinking of ordering her DVD's as well. I have seen other people with BC's that are trained the Ann Marie Silverton method and also Connie Clevelands method. Their dogs are the top competitors in So. Calif. Gosh, one of Ann Marie's proteges get $100 per hour for private lessons her in So. Calif. So, where I am going with this is, I am trying to learn as much as I can on this way of training.

Thanks,

Audrey

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