TUGGING

[beachdogz]

So I'm reading posts in "Politics and Culture" and sport dog breeding comes up. And within those posts come quotes like these:

 

"And yes, tugging is HUGE in agility often precisely because of training. There are articles and workshops on teaching your dog to tug and to find tugging the best reward ever. Some people go so far as to pronounce that if you dog won't tug, you won't have the drive you need to truly succeed. Your dog must tug" (Shetlander) and

 

"Tugging is a huge deal to most sports people. I think tugging makes a person interact with their dog instead of just handing food, a ball, etc... I prefer to tug with my dogs in flyball BUT out of my 4 dogs only one tugs on the lanes. I prefer to work with what works for the dog so I don't force the tug." (2 Devils)

 

So help the new guy out here....what's all the tugging about? What makes it so special? What makes it so important? When to tug? When not to tug? Do you HAVE to do it?

 

This whole thing fascinates me.....

[stockdogranch]

As someone totally outside the "sports" culture, I wonder, as well. What's up with the tugging thing? Why is it important? What is its purpose?

 

A

[dogsofmenace]

I don't think tugging is as amazing as people make it out to be. I do think its a good exercise for dogs, though. Mainly its just fun for you and the dog. It also creates a stronger bond because its interactive, more so than a game of fetch. Tugging can be a great motivator for dogs that need it, and can actually be a sort of pacifier-like for very high dogs who may otherwise bark or lunge. Its sort of understood (though not really proven) that giving dogs treats can calm them down, while playing with toys makes them more excited. So if you have an unmotivated dog, it would be harder to motivate it with food than it would be with a game of tug. Its also a great game for you to work on impulse control, i.e. only tug when I say tug, release the tug when I say to, etc.

 

Another great thing about it is that you can teach a dog to tug on a leash, so can reward/amp your dog up before and after an agility run, where toys and treats are not allowed. If your dog doesn't tug then you don't have a reward to give them right then and there. Nope, you don't have to tug, its not the Jesus of dog training rewards or anything, but its fun and convenient, so why not?

[Bo Peep]

I don't allow "tugging on the leash" because I do obedience. I had my heart dog that loved rubber bands and she fetched them, only for me to find out that when I put them on my arm, after travel time and entry fees- I took one step into the ring (after her tugging at my arm) and they said "Thank you"- we went on to the ummmm....band type, with Velcro, whatever- seemed to work with her- That darn dog could find a rubber band in my 5 acre field.

 

So, no tugging, no nothing anymore! Now, I don't do that anymore- people seem that "tugging" is a reward. I don't see that, If you could explain it to me, I would really like to hear what the big thing about tugging is.

 

Wouldn't a "good dog" or a big hug be a good enough reward? I'm sorry- I'm not "downing" anyone- I simply do NOT understand.

[2 Devils]

I enjoy tugging with my dogs especially my border collie who has confidence issues. She loves to tug with me and pretty much only me. I allow her to win about half the time. I am working with others to play tug with her and letting her win. She is so far down the "food chain" with regards to people this is helping who get past her fears and with how submissive she is with people. She is slowly starting to go up to more people and initiating interaction.

 

In dogsports as I said in what you quoted - tugging is interactive compared just treats or handing a ball. Again, I don't think tugging is the be all end all in dogsports. Now I do wish my borderjack would tug on the lanes. It would make catching him much easier. A good tugger will latch onto the tug and not let go until given a release command. This makes them easier to control to a point on the lanes. Riot runs for another ball. You have to place the ball down near you and then quickly catch him and pick him up. If you don't and another ball goes past he is off and chasing that ball. I worked months and months trying to get him to release a ball for a tug but gave up. I don't think he would be any faster for a tug compared to the ball, he would just be easier to catch. He also does not really get much interaction with his handler since he has to be grabbed up so quickly. He plays flyball because he loves flyball and balls.

 

Some people play tug in too rough a manner and can cause injury to the dog and possibly themselves.

 

Overall - for non-sport people tugging can be done just for fun, as a controlled game teaching them self control, with how I am using it as a confidence booster, just a drive builder or a reward. In the sport world many people believe that unless a dog tugs you aren't getting the most out of the dog because they are not driving back to you or in agility they are not driving over/through the obstacles. I don't believe this to be the case. I think a dog can compete just as well tugging as if you just treated them or used a ball/frisbee or other toy.

 

I prefer to tug with my dogs BUT I do not force the issue. I will finally give and go with what works for that dog. Maybe a better trainer than me can get unwilling tuggers to tug but I don't see the point.

 

I also don't think there is anything special about tugging other than my dogs enjoy it and so do I. When to use - whenever you want to. I don't think anyone has to tug with their dogs. It is your choice.

[stockdogranch]

Tugging can be a great motivator for dogs

 

How exactly does it motivate?

 

It also creates a stronger bond because its interactive, more so than a game of fetch.

 

How so? Seems to me that fetch is pretty interactive, no? (I honestly don't know, as I do neither).

 

Now I do wish my borderjack would tug on the lanes. It would make catching him much easier. A good tugger will latch onto the tug and not let go until given a release command. This makes them easier to control to a point on the lanes. Riot runs for another ball. You have to place the ball down near you and then quickly catch him and pick him up. If you don't and another ball goes past he is off and chasing that ball. I worked months and months trying to get him to release a ball for a tug but gave up. I don't think he would be any faster for a tug compared to the ball, he would just be easier to catch.

 

This means the dogs don't just have a recall? You have to basically trick them to "catch" them?

 

so can reward/amp your dog up before and after an agility run,

 

Why do you need to "amp" the dog up? Isn't agility exciting enough for them? And, especially, why amp them up AFTER the run?

 

Wouldn't a "good dog" or a big hug be a good enough reward? I'm sorry- I'm not "downing" anyone- I simply do NOT understand.

 

Me, neither. I guess my main question is why do they need to be "treated" whether that be with tug, toys, or treats? Isn't agility intrinsically interesting enough for the dogs to just enjoy it for what it is?

 

Confused,

 

A

[dogsofmenace]

So, no tugging, no nothing anymore! Now, I don't do that anymore- people seem that "tugging" is a reward. I don't see that, If you could explain it to me, I would really like to hear what the big thing about tugging is.

Tugging is a reward for many dogs because they find it fun. Anything enjoyable to a particular dog is a reward.

Wouldn't a "good dog" or a big hug be a good enough reward? I'm sorry- I'm not "downing" anyone- I simply do NOT understand.

If you're dogs find hugs and verbal praise very rewarding, then by all means its good enough. Most dogs won't work for a pat on the back unless they find the activity rewarding in itself. To increase the likelihood that a behavior will be repeated or done enthusiastically, you have to give a high-value reward after it's performed. Going over a jump is not inherently rewarding for most dogs. But if, every time they jump, they get a high-value reward (like food or a tug toy) they will eventually find the jump by itself rewarding. I just want my dogs to have as much fun doing dog sports as I do!

[dogsofmenace]

Why do you need to "amp" the dog up? Isn't agility exciting enough for them? And, especially, why amp them up AFTER the run?

Me, neither. I guess my main question is why do they need to be "treated" whether that be with tug, toys, or treats? Isn't agility intrinsically interesting enough for the dogs to just enjoy it for what it is?

I mean amp up before a run and reward after a run.

 

Some dogs find agility rewarding by itself. Some dogs don't. Its about individual dogs. You can use the tug, toys and treats to transfer value from one behavior to another, so eventually agility is rewarding for them.

 

Some dogs can be stressed out or just not very excited about the whole agility experience. Tugging and playing before and after a run can make the experience more positive and enjoyable for them.

[beachdogz]

I'm actually considering incorporating tug during obedience class next week (funny, considering I was always anti-tug).

 

I have an adopted b.c....1 1/2 yrs. She had some basic obedience before I got her, so we're in beginners II class. I've had her for only 2 1/2 months...so I did a sit-in on a class a few weeks ago to see if I thought she could handle it. Well, she loves it.

 

She's pretty good...but I don't really have a lot of dog attention or excitement. She responds for treats, but she is also very taken with looking around. She has not fully bonded to me yet and I believe that is part of the problem (although today when I came home she actually came and jumped on me...I was so excited!) Also, the class does a LOT of heeling, which can be very, very monotonous. So I'm thinking of throwing some tug in to perk it up and to maybe get more dog attention. She always wants to tug at home, so I know she'll like it.

 

So keep the input coming on tugging. I'm taking it all in!

[Shetlander]

How exactly does it motivate?

 

It motivates by being rewarding to the dog and the dog associating the tugging with what you are training/reinforcing. I've never been a tugging freak, but most of my dogs enjoy it and I would use it with them at times in agility. My shy dog wouldn't tug in public but was very keen for certain fetch toys. So I paired up training and showing with those toys to reward him and also to keep him in a happy, confident frame of mind.

 

How so? Seems to me that fetch is pretty interactive, no?

 

Again, not a tug freak, but tug is often seen as more interactive because, done correctly, you are focusing on your dog, keeping your dog interacting directly with you rather than running off to chase a toy.

 

This means the dogs don't just have a recall? You have to basically trick them to "catch" them?

 

This is a flyball question, so I'll pass.

 

Why do you need to "amp" the dog up? Isn't agility exciting enough for them? And, especially, why amp them up AFTER the run?

 

Not every dog is super excited about agility. Some lack confidence. Some are more careful workers and so may have problems making time. Even dogs who love agility find games and play very rewarding and it makes agility that much more fun. I stopped doing agility but when I was training Quinn, he seemed to see agility as an elaborate game to get to toys. Weaves were a fancy way of doing retrieves . I never got the sense that he loved agility the way some dogs do, but he enjoyed it and the games certainly helped make it fun for him. I've also seen dogs that through motivating training and play, came to think agility was fantastic. The fun and excitement of play can rub off on the activity where that play often occurs. I always had special training toys and treats -- the ones my dogs went most nuts for -- that only came out during practice or at shows.

 

It's just an approach for training dogs in a sport where if they are not having fun and wanting to go fast, then you're not going to have too much satisfaction. You can use tugging, fetch, food, praise, whatever, to build those positive associations to the activity which often also becomes very rewarding in and of itself to the dog.

[Ooky]

How so? Seems to me that fetch is pretty interactive, no? (I honestly don't know, as I do neither).

 

I don't do agility (yet) but I do think tugging is more interactive b/c of the prolonged eye contact. We are actually using a version of a tug game right now to teach heeling so I can get the eye-to-eye heel. I also feel less likely to injure Odin (he's young) playing tug than fetch, though we do both. He has to "drop it" 90% of the time and has other very strict rules that make it even more interactive, probably b/c I started this dog raising thing reading a training book written for GSDs that warned against tugging.

[beachdogz]

I don't do agility (yet) but I do think tugging is more interactive b/c of the prolonged eye contact. We are actually using a version of a tug game right now to teach heeling so I can get the eye-to-eye heel. I also feel less likely to injure Odin (he's young) playing tug than fetch, though we do both. He has to "drop it" 90% of the time and has other very strict rules that make it even more interactive, probably b/c I started this dog raising thing reading a training book written for GSDs that warned against tugging.

 

Yep. There's that GSD thing (my breed...or was my breed). That's where I get my anti-tug background!

 

So please tell me about the "using a version of a tug game to teach heeling to get the eye-to-eye heel." Any tips or suggestions?

 

thanks

[Ooky]

Yep. There's that GSD thing (my breed...or was my breed). That's where I get my anti-tug background!

 

So please tell me about the "using a version of a tug game to teach heeling to get the eye-to-eye heel." Any tips or suggestions?

 

thanks

 

Oh, I don't know that you'd really want to take advice on this one from me, as I consider it one of my "crackpot" schemes... But, to expose what a poor trainer I probably am...

 

Odin has a tug game where ironically he is not supposed to tug, but move with the tug. This game developed organically between the two of us, but might be because I often act kind of dominant to him in tug due to the book I mentioned above. His eyes are glued to mine in all tug games, and I have good success giving him eye-flick commands (flick eyes down for down, for instance) with a tug in his mouth. So I combined these two things. I bring him to my left side and stop, eye-flick signal a sit. Then, I give the command to heel and we go around, lots of inside and outside turns, lots of speed changes, etc, with his eyes glued to mine. If he starts to pull too much, we go back to the sit-heel. If he does well, I initiate crazy tug time, with lots of pulling back and forth, or I run through the house jumping (he likes that ). It does seem to be helping with loose leash heeling in class, as I am getting better eye contact than I was previously.

[Genie]

Tugging is a play reward. You can get the same results with a toy they fetch instead of tug, but tugging is convenient. In general, a play reward of any type is higher value to the dog than a food reward.

 

I use the tug as a reward and training aid in Flyball. I don't need it as a motivator for Zeb since the whole activity in itself is rewarding to him. The tug is a reward for doing the job correctly and not missing a jump or stealing the wrong ball, etc. If he doesn't do it right, he doesn't get the tug. It works for him because I use it to show when he's done it right and when he hasn't. He thrives on clear communication and wants to please and how I use the tug helps aid that communication. I don't use the tug to control him. He has a good recall and we've worked through various distractions he may encounter and he now knows to not touch tennis balls on the ground or bouncing past. The tug is just a reward for a job well done.

 

I also use a small tug or ball as an obedience reward. I started by rewarding with a tug or a ball tossed to him after each obedience exercise, then gradually faded it to after several exercises chained together, then eventually to after the whole Novice obedience routine. Obedience exercises in themselves are not a rewarding activity, so in this case, the tug or toy is used to make obedience more fun as well as reward for doing the exercises right.

 

ETA: I do allow tugging on the leash, but only when I give the ok to tug. He did tug in the rally ring the one time I took him in, but that just shows what we need to work on. In time, he will learn to not tug in the ring.

[Alaska]

Pre-disclaimer:

 

Oh gee, I see that about six more people have weighed in during the time it took me to write this dissertation. Hope there's still something in it that hasn't already been said better above.

 

Disclaimer:

 

My dogs and I have no access to sheep. None. We live on an island in the North Pacific Ocean, that is mountainous, heavily vegetated with dense old-growth forest, and wholly unsuited to livestock raising. I would guess that the nearest sheep are close to 1000 miles away, as most of the intervening terrain is similar to where we live. Agility is not exactly a practical hobby for me to have taken up, but it is at least possible to set up courses and train here. I bumbled my way into the world of dog agility about 6-8 months after bringing a border collie home to Alaska from a shelter in Eastern Washington, because I was awed by the athleticism and intelligence of this dog and started searching for ways to do something with her. I soon learned that she could be trained to do almost anything, and agility presented a set of progressive training challenges that I have yet to become bored with.

 

For me, agility is a fun and challenging hobby, but since I'm the one who decided we would take it up, it is incumbent on me to make sure it is also fun and challenging for my teammate, and that's where the tug comes in. I would be surprised to hear of a rancher who spent much time trying to train up a stockdog that did not show much natural talent or find stockwork intrinsically rewarding, but agility is not work, it's a fun game you and your dog can do together. Any dog. Different dogs bring different strengths and weaknesses to the game, and part of why makes it rewarding for the human is learning and mastering the use of a wide variety of training techniques and approaches to create successful teams out of each individual dog-human pair. Tugs and tugging can be used to address a number of challenges, but certainly not all. The key is choosing the right tool for the particular challenge and using it skillfully.

 

Okay, now I'll take a shot at Anna's questions.

 

How exactly does it motivate?

 

Some dogs (probably many, if you don't include the BC contigent) do not automatically see why running over a seesaw or through weave poles, or in some cases even jumping a jump, would be a fun thing to do. You can order them to do it and they'll do it, but they won't dash through with gleeful abandon. If you reward them at the end, it motivates them to do whatever it takes to get the reward, and over time to do it faster and faster. As has already been mentioned, you can use tugging as a reward if (and only if) the dog finds tugging rewarding. If not, you can choose a different reward or teach the dog to like tugging. (Both are reasonable alternatives, but that's a different subject. You asked how a reward motivates, not how to choose or create an appropriate reward.)

 

I think one thing that confuses the stockdog people is why you would even bother doing agility if the dog is not intrinsically motivated by it to start with, and one answer is that agility becomes more and more intrinsically rewarding (just like racing around in the woods is intrinsically rewarding) as the dog begins to understand what they're being asked to do and goes faster and with more confidence. I think it's like the progression from learning to ride a bike with training wheels (a bit frustrating, maybe scary at first) to eventually screaming down a single track on your mountain bike, wind in your hair, etc. Totally awesome.

 

How so? Seems to me that fetch is pretty interactive, no? (I honestly don't know, as I do neither).

True. Probably the biggest distinction is that tugging keeps you and the dog connected the whole time; the reward is always where the human is. Fetch sends the dog away from you to get its own reward somewhere out there.

 

Also, with tugging, 100% of the reward is physically attached to and controlled by the human, so you can wield it (as a reward) more deftly.

 

Another difference is that you don't need much space for a tug game. You can play a fetch game in a small space, but it's a lower energy game, so maybe not as many endorphins generated? Again, both are tools with many permutations. It's not that one tool is better than another, but there's often a best choice for a particular situation.

 

This means the dogs don't just have a recall? You have to basically trick them to "catch" them?

I know nothing about flyball, but maybe this blog entry by Agility Nerd sheds some light on your question. Among other things, he writes:

 

"In order to train a dog to excel in Flyball you need to have a reward for the dog at the end of the run that has a higher value to the dog than the act of running and getting the ball....Not only is tugging fun and rewarding for the dog, it provides a measure of safety. There can be as many as twelve excited dogs and handlers in the run back area of a Flyball ring, together with tennis balls rolling around, and handlers/dogs rushing back and forth. Tugging is a great way to reward your dog for a good run and lets you get your dog out of the way."

 

Are there any sheepdog trials where the dog exhausts its sheep at the end of the run directly through the middle of the next 12 waiting dogs? I don't know.

 

Why do you need to "amp" the dog up? Isn't agility exciting enough for them? And, especially, why amp them up AFTER the run?

Some of us have dogs that are quite well enough amped up on their own, thank you very much. THAT particular dog of mine will most certainly not be seen tugging in public.

 

As for my other dog, I don't "amp her up" before a run for the sake of amping up (whatever that might be). However, while she finds agility exciting and fun in settings she is comfortable in, a new setting has all kinds of things that need to be studied (so she tells me) to make sure they will not do something unexpected and unpleasant. If we just stand around before our turn, she will spend the whole time studying every element of our surroundings in detail. Then, when it's time to go, she is (at a minimum) not focused on the challenge facing us in the ring but instead thinking about what she's been studying, and if she found something that concerned her she's focused largely on that.

 

So, before our turn, I do a variety of things with her to keep her engaged with me. Might be a little tugging, might be running through a few tricks, might be challenging her to keep up with me as I move unpredictably back and forth, left and right, etc., or it might be scritching behind the ear or leaning against each other, or even down on the ground getting a proper belly rub. Not so much amping up as staying connected, but sometimes adding a little action to the connection helps maintain it.

 

Dunno about the amping up after. I suspect people who tug after a run are doing it for other reasons than that.

 

Me, neither. I guess my main question is why do they need to be "treated" whether that be with tug, toys, or treats? Isn't agility intrinsically interesting enough for the dogs to just enjoy it for what it is?

Partially addressed a few paragraphs back.

 

Agility may hold intrinsic interest for some dogs, but it's no more intrinsically rewarding for the dog to run the course the right direction than the wrong direction. To my knowledge, the dog has not yet been bred that comes genetically pre-wired to make independent decisions about how to get around an agility course. It's not stockwork, it's an artificial, made-up challenge with rules invented, and frequently changed, by humans. You, the handler, first have to convey to the dog what today's totally arbitrary challenge is, and the process is a lot less frustating for both parties if you have a way to tell the dog when they got it right. Most people mark that instant with a sound, verbal or otherwise, and then follow that sound up with a reward, which gives the otherwise neutral sound a value or meaning.

 

In stockwork, if I understand it, the reward is always there on the field for the dog to enjoy, and the trainer only removes it (or access to it) if the dog makes a decision the trainer disagrees with. This works because a well-bred stockdog is genetically programmed to make the right decision much of the time.

 

We agility trainers don't have it so easy

[Alaska]

And now, because I haven't spent enough of my Friday night on this thread yet, to respond to a couple of other posts....

 

I don't allow "tugging on the leash" because I do obedience. I had my heart dog that loved rubber bands and she fetched them, only for me to find out that when I put them on my arm, after travel time and entry fees- I took one step into the ring (after her tugging at my arm) and they said "Thank you"- we went on to the ummmm....band type, with Velcro, whatever- seemed to work with her- That darn dog could find a rubber band in my 5 acre field.

Dianne, if you can train dogs to do all the other amazing things you have, surely you can teach a dog that rubber bands on the ground are for fetching but rubber bands on the arm are off limits!

 

One of the fundamental things that needs to be established when using an object like a tug as a training tool is that it is a dead object and not available to the dog unless you offer it to them. Even the most avid tugger should ultimately be able to run right past one on the course if it's just lying there.

 

Wouldn't a "good dog" or a big hug be a good enough reward?

I do actually have a BC for whom a hug is the very best reward, and that's exactly what he gets for over-the-top performance. Nothing makes him happier than to see me crouch down so he can run straight at me, then slam full bore into my chest and hug my neck for all he's worth. It's cuter than hell, and that more than makes up for all the incidental mud-smeared clothing and facial bruises I accrue in the process.

 

I don't really have a lot of dog attention or excitement. She responds for treats, but she is also very taken with looking around. She has not fully bonded to me yet and I believe that is part of the problem (although today when I came home she actually came and jumped on me...I was so excited!) Also, the class does a LOT of heeling, which can be very, very monotonous. So I'm thinking of throwing some tug in to perk it up and to maybe get more dog attention. She always wants to tug at home, so I know she'll like it.

A useful tool for this situation is to teach your dog to target your hand (i.e. poke your palm with their nose). Dogs love doing it, and it gets them very quickly refocused on wherever you want them to face, as well as refocused on you. It's such a useful skill that the notoriously stingy Whole Dog Journal has made a whole article on it free for internet perusal here.

[Seelie Fey]

I know nothing about flyball, but maybe this blog entry by Agility Nerd sheds some light on your question. Among other things, he writes:

 

"In order to train a dog to excel in Flyball you need to have a reward for the dog at the end of the run that has a higher value to the dog than the act of running and getting the ball....Not only is tugging fun and rewarding for the dog, it provides a measure of safety. There can be as many as twelve excited dogs and handlers in the run back area of a Flyball ring, together with tennis balls rolling around, and handlers/dogs rushing back and forth. Tugging is a great way to reward your dog for a good run and lets you get your dog out of the way."

We agility trainers don't have it so easy

 

Exactly. Given the choice between coming back to you and not playing any more or running again and again and again and again, most flyball dogs go for the unauthorized rerun. Some might be intrigued by the 7 to a dozen other handlers yelling and calling and swinging toys and offering treats or balls or whatever they can to get their dog to run back a hundreth of a second faster. Also, it's not obedience. For an obedience recall, my dog trots up to me and sits in front of me. For Flyball, the dog sprints back as fast as it can and doesn't slow down and stop by me, it (ideally) runs full bore, catches the tug mid sprint and goes swinging through the air on the end of the tug. Another safety issue is that if you are playing in a building or in an area with a limited runback, you want to be able to physically halt a sprinting dog in a very short distance, but you don't want to sacrifice speed before he crosses the finish line. Additionally, if the dog does miss the ball or jump, you want to get him back to you as fast as possible, turned around, and running back down the lane. A nice big looping turn doesn't cut it. With a tug, he's there, grab, spin, go, no "here doggie doggie doggie" type delays.

 

Just my opinion, but I like tug over fetch for building interaction, because tug is usually non-verbal (well, I growl at them and they growl back, but that is another issue.) Tug is boring if one is just ripping it away from the other. Instead, you read your dog's body language and gauge how much to pull and he's doing the same thing to you. It's actually very cooperative. My bc is always bringing me bits of paper or rubber bands to tug with. If she pulled full force, the band breaks, the paper shreds, no fun. Instead, she learns to moderate and cooperate so that the game goes on and she has fun. For my shy dog, it seemed to really build her confidence and willingness to offer play behaviour (rather than submissive peeing in a frantic attempt to placate anyone she met ).

[Bo Peep]

This is a new subject for me. I never allowed tugging, but now I can see the rewards. Usher loves to "tug" at his toys, it's just been a game to us. Bailey and Usher used to do this together which seemed quite amusing. Bliss is finally trying to tug- which is a reward in itself- Even Miss Lacey enjoyed her "grrr time".

 

I have watched on TV how people do this as an award. Quite interesting. I think I will lurk at these postings and see what happens. Never used it on my dogs that worked sheep. Never even tried it. So, it's an odd behavior for me, yet I can see it as an award.

 

For dogs, tugging is a natural thing, so I can see it as a play time reward. I don't think I would allow it on sheep or obedience, but as far as other sports or "fun time" and for Bliss, getting her out of her shell, it seems like a nice reward.

[beachdogz]

wow. who knew there was soooo much to a simple game of tug-o-war. I am in awe.

 

OK....opinions wanted here: should I just keep the game of tug to rewarding in obedience and agility or should i reinforce it at home? I guess I'm asking that if you do it too much at home during play, will it diminish the reward when working?

[2 Devils]

Thanks for explaining the catching a dog quickly in flyball in the earlier threads. Riot has an awesome recall but the hustle and bustle of everything just overloads his brain when he sees so many balls flying by... Many people don't like flyball because it is very hectic which I can understand. With so many people and dogs in the runback area it can be a safety issue.

 

Tugging is done correctly is an interactive reward for handler and dog. If you are going to tug with a dog you need to pat attention to the dog and not what is going on other places.

 

When I took some agility classes my bc was able to tug while waiting for her turn but for an actual reward for performing what I asked she received food most of the time. She is fearful and timid. For her to tug in public away from her safety zone is huge. As she gets more comfortable the more tugging she will do. Tugging allows me to monitor how she is improving in public. She is a chow hound so treats don't allow me to really notice the improvement.

[Root Beer]

So help the new guy out here....what's all the tugging about? What makes it so special? What makes it so important? When to tug? When not to tug? Do you HAVE to do it?

 

I didn't read the other responses first, so if I repeat what others have said, I beg pardon!!

 

I'm going to answer the last question first - no, you don't HAVE to do it. Maddie does not tug. She has no interest whatsoever in tug. It would be a bigger job for me to make her tug than to just use other motivators and she has learned to run Agility very nicely. That said, it is quite a handy tool if the dog likes tug.

 

Tugging can serve several purposes. It can be a motivator, it can be a jackpot reward, it can be used to premack problem pieces of equipment, and it can be a distraction.

 

An example of a motivator - the dog knows how to weave, but is weaving slowly. Start to play tug as the dog comes out of the weaves and the dog will get more excited about the weaves and begin to weave faster. Tug has a particular advantage over food (if the dog likes tug) because it gets the dog more ramped up.

 

An example of a jackpot reward - say the dog tends to do a spin when the handler does a rear cross. The handler could tug with the dog every time the dog does not spin to jackpot reward correct performance.

 

An example of premack - say the dog does not like the teeter. The handler could ask the dog to touch the teeter and then call the dog off and tug. Repeat quite a few times and the dog will start to touch the teeter more eagerly. Continue to cue more and more contact with the teeter, call the dog off and tug. The goal here isn't to reward the behavior, but to condition the dog to associate touching the teeter with the enjoyment of the tug. Once the dog has a positive association with the teeter, regular training of the teeter can take place.

 

An example of a distraction - say the dog went over threshold as other dogs were taking their turn. If the dog is highly tug motivated, the dog might tug instead of going ballistic over those dogs. I don't advocate this. I tried it with two dogs and it failed. Teaching them to relax instead of trying to make them tug crazy worked for me. Still there are many who swear by this.

 

What makes it special and important to me is that it is an excellent tool. With Dean I use a combination of food, tug, and a thrown ball toy as motivators and rewards. For him I need to use food on weaves and contacts. Those are places where I need his head in the game right now. Once he has these behaviors down pat I could transfer them to toy motivator/rewards. For correct crosses I use a thrown ball. It's nice that he brings it right back to me so we can just continue on from there. I use tug with him as a jackpot after a particularly excellent sequence and/or at the end of our run.

 

Having a dog that tugs gives you a lot of training advantages. I like having a dog that tugs for Agility, but I don't consider it the be all end all.

[Genie]

Thanks for explaining the catching a dog quickly in flyball in the earlier threads. Riot has an awesome recall but the hustle and bustle of everything just overloads his brain when he sees so many balls flying by... Many people don't like flyball because it is very hectic which I can understand. With so many people and dogs in the runback area it can be a safety issue.

 

I'm glad you both clarified that because I find that the overall perception of flyball by many non-flyball people is that there isn't much training involved and most flyball dogs are wild and out of control. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

[Root Beer]

Wouldn't a "good dog" or a big hug be a good enough reward?

 

It completely depends on the dog, but I don't know many who actually like being hugged on an Agility course. Maddie is the exception. We taught her teeter by calling her up to the tip point, then I would hug her and pet her and make a big fuss over her as we tipped the board and then she went to the end for her big treat reward.

 

Honestly, I don't know another dog that would put up with that, much less like it, but she LOVES the teeter because of all the love she got on there!!

 

Dean would have gone home with another handler if I had tried that with him!!! He's all about business out there until we step off the field and go back to our seat - then he's all love and hugs!!

[Root Beer]

I guess my main question is why do they need to be "treated" whether that be with tug, toys, or treats? Isn't agility intrinsically interesting enough for the dogs to just enjoy it for what it is?

 

For some dogs, especially in the early stages of training, Agility is not particularly exciting or interesting. Until they are actually running and performing the pieces with some competence, they really don't have any idea why they are learning to do strange things like stop at the end of a ramp and wait, or weave through poles, or get on this board that is going to tip when they get to the middle. Some dogs do just take to interacting with the equipment, but many need to go through the process of learning first and motivators and rewards that they value (treats, thrown balls, tug, etc) provide that.

 

Even once they get to the stage where they are running courses and understand the job on each piece of equipment, some dogs benefit from extra motivation. For some reason, my dog Maddie does not care for tunnels. I think it's because she can't see me when she is inside the tunnel. If I stop and give her a food reward for every tunnel in training, she barrels into them with excitement at trials. If I never reward them, she starts to refuse them. Again, some dogs love it all, but most that I know have one particular piece or two that needs high rewards.

 

But even more important than that, rewards give the handler a way to tell the dog that he or she has given a correct performance. For example, when the dog weaves, he must weave in and out of every pole. If I use rewards in training, I can give a reward for correct performance of weaves and no reward when the dog does not give correct performance. The weaves are equally "rewarding" to the dog whether he weaves correctly or not, but I can make it most rewarding for the dog when he performs them correctly by using a tug or ball or treats every time the dog gets it right.

 

A dog could go out on the Agility course and jump all of the jumps the wrong way, jump over the tunnels, leap over all of the contact zones, fly off the teeter at mid point, and run in and out of the weave poles at random and have an absolute blast. But of course we don't want that to happen! Rewards like tug, treats, and other toys give the handler the ability to teach the dog to offer correct performance and make correct performance more rewarding to the dog than doing his or her own thing out there.

[2 Devils]

Kristine - great examples of what tugging can be used for and why sometimes tugging is not good for some dogs.

 

Genie - yeah many people don't think there is much training in flyball and dogs are just going crazy. It is hectic but there is also a lot of training involved. It is not as easy as some think.