Agility comparisons

[mum24dog]

I have a fair idea of how agility works in other countries but I tend to find that overseas agility folk often don't seem to grasp the scale of what we deal with over here.

(Apologies if that sounds patronising - it wasn't meant to.)

 

I thought I'd set out how it works for us.

 

I'll concentrate on large dogs since this is a BC site and there are far more large than small or medium competing, and on KC shows, which comprise the vast majority of competitions, although there are some much smaller organisations with their own rules.

 

First thing - our KC has no bar against unpapered dogs competing in any discipline other than Field Trials. Unpapered dogs do have to be registered with the KC on the Activity Register to be able to compete. You don't need a sport or show bred dog KC registered dog to compete at KC events in this country so there is less of an issue between working/sport breeding, but it still exists.

 

Second thing - we've had longer to grow over here than anywhere else - 30 years.

 

Third thing - we are, of course, a small country and it's relatively easy to travel to shows.

 

Grass roots - The majority of clubs are KC registered and run by volunteers. Only they can hold KC shows. The number of private clubs is growing though. Many people belong to both. Waiting lists to join (if the list hasn't been closed) can be up to a year or two.

 

Dog sizes and jump height - as per FCI rules. Small up to 35cm jumping max 35cm. Medium 35-43cm jumping max 45cm. Large over 45cm jumping 65cm (26in). Jumps almost always set at the max allowed height for each size.

 

Grades - 7 grades. (FCI only has 3 but that wouldn't work with the number of dogs we have here.)

All totally new dogs and handlers start at Grade 1. When you win out of Grade 1, that's it forever, including future dogs.

Same for Grade 2 but not above that. Most handlers who have had any success in the past have to start any new dogs in Grade 3 so that the total newbies don't have to face them.

 

Championship - Any Grade 7 dog can enter. Jumping round, then agility. Best 50% (or max 20 dogs) through to the final. Winner of the final gets a CC and qualifies for the next Crufts Championship. 3 CCs under different judges needed

to become an Agility Champion except that the winner of Crufts automatically gets made up to Champion. (Last year's Medium winner was an SBT X.)

 

Progression - 3 ways.

One agility win.

Or 3 jumping wins.

Or (up to Grade 5) 75 points at current grade. This is optional. Most handlers hold out for a win. Dogs can progress on clear rounds alone but they'd need between 38 and 75 to do it. (2 pts for agility clear, 1 for jumping.) Points also gained for places. From Grade 6 to Grade 7 you need 4 wins at Grade 6 - at least 2 agility.

Progression can only be via results in KC Open shows. An Open show has to be open to anyone who wants to enter (unless barred).

 

Titles - We don't really have them. Ag Ch, of course, and the Agility Warrant scheme aimed at dogs that aren't good enough to win out, but winners are not excluded. Bronze AW - 200 points (see above). Silver 400 and Gold 800. Lots of people who get an AW don't bother to use the title.

 

Class sizes - Variable. Rarely under 100 in any grade. Often a dog will have to beat 2-300 dogs for a win. Biggest classes are found in the south of England, becoming less big (never small) the further north you go.

 

Retirement - Average around 10, I guess. Usually not because the dog is broken, but because it is less competitive and the handler wants to concentrate on younger dogs. No bad thing IMO since it means that dogs are not pushed to compete until they can't do it any more. Dogs that can't make normal competition height for whatever reason can often have a run in veteran or all sorts classes at lower height.

 

Multiple dogs - Very few people have only 1 dog. We don't have laws over here dictating how many dogs you may own and most handlers have 2+ (even up to 10). No big deal then to retire an older dog. As long as the Environmental Health Dept don't get complaints about your dogs on the grounds of noise or hygiene, you can generally have as many as you like.

 

Judges - Don't get paid. Usually get expenses, free camping, maybe free runs for dogs on the day they aren't judging, a token gift. New judges have to pass a KC exam.

 

Classes - Mostly jumping or agility. (No jumpers without weaves.) Courses at the judge's discretion. No compulsory obstacles except in Champ classes and at least 2 contacts in agility.

Sometimes special classes like veterans, juniors, games.

Average around 3 runs per day for each dog.

Classes can be for a single grade, combined grades where they compete against each other or graded for more than 1 grade, where each grade has a separate set of awards.

 

Awards - Rosettes to 10% (sometimes 15%) of the entry in each class and trophies usually to 3rd place.

 

Entry fees - Around the $5 per class mark. $20 or so for Champ classes.

 

Shows - Usually between 4 and 14 rings or thereabouts depending on area. Each judge has a max of 450 dogs per day allowed but could be fewer.

From 1/5 to 30/9 there will be several outdoor 2-3 day shows around the country. In addition there are 5 week long shows.

In winter there are fewer and they are 1 day indoor events. Venues (by which I mean the place the shows are held rather than the organisation) that are big enough are hard to find so classes offered are usually very limited and dogs may only get 2 runs. (Our club is lucky in that we hold our winter show at an equestrian centre which will fit 6 rings.)

Camping numbers at summer shows are at the discretion of the organisers. For example, our own 8 ring show has around 350 camping units. Sometimes a low limit is placed on camping to deter entries but that doesn't usually work too well.

Very few clubs are big enough to run a show without outside help. This is usually provided by other clubs on a reciprocal basis, or by individual volunteers.

Venues are usual very basic - no fancy facilities.

 

It seems that the European view is that it is a competitive sport and progress and awards shouldn't be too easy to achieve. We appreciate things more if we've really had to work hard for them.

 

In countries where there is less pressure numerically, the emphasis seems to be (dare I say it?) rather Marxist. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." It doesn't matter if your dog isn't really suited to excel in agility, the system will be arranged so that most people can see an achievable goal.

 

I suppose that's understandable in view of the cost of competing and distances travelled. Got to be worth going. Not so important here where it's cheaper and someone with a no-hoper dog can just use a show to have a pleasant weekend catching up with friends, with a little agility on the side.

 

Of course at the top end there really is no difference between the dogs and handlers anywhere. To get there you really need to be driven to win.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

Ha! I just typed out a long point by point response and accidentally deleted it.

 

Ah well.

 

It's very different here. That was the gist of it.

 

Sorry.

[capnree]

That's very interesting -I've always wanted a more clear-cut idea of how agility works on your side. I really love watching your jumpers courses on youtube, they always look very challenging.

 

I would say a local show here is not as competitive based on sheer numbers and geographical size. I entered a show in AKC Novice A --and was the only person in that class. It was a large show, too. We also have limits in some venues -for example, the last CPE show I went to, I think the limit was 250 runs per day -so you have to get your entry in before the show fills. CPE isn't very popular where I am, so, the show didn't even fill.

 

What makes you think the system over here is more arranged so that everyone can achieve --titles? I don't really care about titles. So is that what you're talking about -being able to move up a level without winning? I have no problem with that -I can't even imagine what people here in the US would do if the dogs had to win to move up. You'd have some very odd border collies, and then people would see those dogs winning, think they could also win with the odd border collie, so they go and get one, too. We already have that! Agility is expensive (can be $20 US for one run). If my friend puts some hard work into her mystery mutt shelter dog, I want her to be rewarded for that without the reward having to be winning -it's just a hobby, and like you said, the top is the top, irregardless of what everyone else is doing. If she can win with that dog -even better, but, really, who cares? Winning is not the only admirable goal -it depends on you, and the dog. If I'm driving two hours away (and that's minimum -that's a local trial) and spending a ton of cash, I want to do more than just talk to friends. I like to be competitive regardless of the system, so I like the sound of yours -but I don't think it would work well over here.

 

I also don't know anyone here who could take the time off for a 5 day show, let alone more than one. You would not get near enough entries to cover the cost. If I have that much vacation time, I'm not doing agility, I'm going to the mountains! Agility maybe seems more recreational over there, though also very competitive?

 

JWW is 'Jumpers with Weaves'.

 

ETA: I would not be able to give up the games for anything. I love having games -I almost can't do AKC because of the sheer amount of time I have to sit and wait. I have only entered one --I really can't sit around that long doing nothing, as much as I love agility. I *love* Snooker.

[capnree]

We appreciate things more if we've really had to work hard for them.

 

Sorry, guess I'm not done --I also think this is a pretty bold statement to make. I don't really consider moving up a level all that much of an achievement -maybe based on your system, you do. But who says I have to consider that an achievement? It seems like you are labeling it as such based on your experience in your country. For me, I think an achievement would be placing top 10 in the USDAA Nationals. An achievement would be someone taking a low drive dog, and turning them into a high drive dog. Like I said, accomplishments -and the amount people have to work for them -differ for the individual. Globally. In life -not just in agility. Maybe you would like to re-write that statement to include your definition of progress?

 

For example -if I step onto a USBCHA field in Novice, I would darn well appreciate it. Someone with a lifetime's experience may not consider that as much of an achievement. But are they going to say I didn't work very hard for it, not knowing me personally? Can it not be considered an achievement at all, since it is not winning? It would be very self-interested to assume so, and I highly doubt anyone would do so.

[Root Beer]

I don't really consider moving up a level all that much of an acheivement

 

I do.

 

I work very hard with my dogs to build their skills, and our skills as a team, to the point where we can earn enough qualifying scores to finish up a level.

 

I am not a natural athlete and I don't have years of dog training experience behind me. Training for and competing in dog sports takes work and committment. Moving up levels may be easy for some people and some dogs, but it has not been easy for me, nor for my dogs.

 

I consider finishing the very lowest level of any sport quite an achievement. I am grateful to have dogs who taught me that lesson and will never let me forget it.

 

The placement ribbons, the title ribbons, the certificates, moving to a new level - they are tangible markers of the work, the struggle, the disappointments, the setbacks that we faced and overcame along the way to move up those levels.

 

The fact that I got a title on a dog who was once thrown away like a worthless piece of trash is a very big deal. Wrapped up in that single Level 1 title are all the years it took her to learn to trust again. For me, it's not about the sport itself, but everything it has taken to get to that point.

 

If overcoming obstacles and setbacks and struggles to achieve a goal as a team is not an achievement, I don't know what is.

 

Some may not consider that an "achievement". To me, that's the kind of achievement that really matters.

[Root Beer]

. . . accomplishments -and the amount people have to work for them -differ for the individual.

 

OK, guess I should have read the rest of your post!

 

That's the point I was making in my response, so I think we were saying pretty much the same thing.

[Shetlander]

I've stopped doing agility. I never "ran with the big dogs." I'm mediocre at best. I think of the three dogs I trialed in the various US venues, of the placements and even a couple HIT's, my most thrilling achievement ever was a simple Q. It was my very first Q with my very first agility dog who had been born with crippling shyness. Helping him build confidence, working through his fears, and forging a true partnership with a dog several people told me was trash all came together in that one little Q. No placement. No title. No advancement. Our second show. And in a venue that is seen as inferior compared to AKC or USDAA. Our first show had been a disaster of monumental proportions, but after our second trial, there is a photo of the two of us with me holding the strip ribbon. My expression can only be described as joy. The dog looked pretty happy too. He knew he was the hero in the story.

 

I stopped agility for a few different reasons but a significant one is because it just hasn't been the same since I lost my shy guy. I had lots of fun and many rewarding moments with my other dogs, but nothing was quite the way it was with my first dog.

[MrSnappy]

I only run in AAC and I am proud of my ACHIEVEMENTS with all three dogs I have and do run. Also, you could not pay me enough money to go to a week-long agility trial. That sounds horrible.

 

It seems that the European view is that it is a competitive sport and progress and awards shouldn't be too easy to achieve. We appreciate things more if we've really had to work hard for them.

 

^^ Makes me throw up in my mouth a little. For someone trying not to come across as "patronizing" the OP is extremely patronizing to every non-European on the boards.

 

Liz and Kristine you should both be very proud of your dogs' achievements!!

 

RDM

[pammyd]

As someone just about to launch herself and dog onto the UK agility scene I appreciate some of the explanations there

 

Have to disagree about class size being small up here tho - my pall runs a large dog and he has pretty much never been in a KC comp where he is running against less than 200 dogs in his class

and they are all crazy - looks like every weekend of the summer they are off for a 2 day event somewhere in scotland

 

- really dont think I can do that every weekend!!!

 

 

 

I have to agree with the others tho

altho I am competative as a person I do not want to force that onto my dog

His agility training has made a fairly nervous dog far braver and more trusting - we have a much better bond - when we are not running at training, while the other dogs are watching the dogs running Ben is just watching me (and I have to admit I am watching his happy grin a lot too)

In the one fun club comp I did I was just so happy and amazed that he did his start line stay, that he ran the course and didnt run off to speak to the other dogs

actually these things were as big a deal to me as the rossettes we won for clear rounds

 

and hopefully, although doing well would be nice - if Ben has a good day and has fun then that is the best thing in the world and we are both winners

 

Mind you I havent done a real comp yet - you pros are prob all having a little smile and thinking next year I will have got a caravan and 16 more dogs and be training every night of the week and shows every weekend!!

[Pat W.]

I acknowledge that the UK is the birthplace of this wonderfully addictive sport, I acknowledge that some incredible dog/handler teams exist there ie Greg Derrett and his pups. However here in the US we're no slouches either and compared to the UK there are three major flavors of agility USDAA (oldest and closest related to UK agility), NADAC (strangest) and AKC (I wont say any more) then there are several smaller venues in varying stages of developement CPE, Teacup, UKC, and DOCNA. Agility here is about Twenty -twenty-five years young here and growing by leaps and bounds. USDAA is primarily what I run so can give you an idea of price range from approximately $13 for a standard class - Standard, Gamblers, Jumpers, Relay and Snooker, Tournament classes 20-25 Grand Prix, Steeplechase and 50-60 for the Team Tournament that consists of 3 dog/handler teams running 5 classes under a single team name. Considering the size of the US compared to the UK it does change entry sizes, I believethat the west coast has larger entries but not sure. However the largest non -national trial I have been to was our Northeast Regional which had over 3500 runs over a 3 day period approx 450 dogs entered. Now to address some individual statements:

 

First thing - our KC has no bar against unpapered dogs competing in any discipline other than Field Trials. Unpapered dogs do have to be registered with the KC on the Activity Register to be able to compete. You don't need a sport or show bred dog KC registered dog to compete at KC events in this country so there is less of an issue between working/sport breeding, but it still exists. The ONLY venue that has this restriction is AKC all others are open to dogs of any kind as long as they are physically able to compete ie we all deaf dogs and dogs with a single eye.

 

we are, of course, a small country and it's relatively easy to travel to shows. At the height of trial season in my area I will travel anywhere from 30 min to 5 hours for a trial depending on the trial and the venue

 

7 grades. (FCI only has 3 but that wouldn't work with the number of dogs we have here.)

All totally new dogs and handlers start at Grade 1. When you win out of Grade 1, that's it forever, including future dogs.

Same for Grade 2 but not above that. Most handlers who have had any success in the past have to start any new dogs in Grade 3 so that the total newbies don't have to face them. The three major venues each have 3 championship competition levels and their equivalents in a performance or veterans level: Starters (Novice), Advanced, and Masters (Excellent) AKC does divide their Novice into A/B divisions so that anyone that has put a title on a dog starts in B and all greenies arent at a disadvantage to them. They also divide their Excellent into A/B but I have no idea why its the same course in both. NADAC has several break downs and I'll avoid trying to describe them because they just confuse the heck out of me. USDAA use to divide their Starters class into Starters and Novice but have discontinued that practice since it was scored the same.

 

Grass roots - The majority of clubs are KC registered and run by volunteers. Only they can hold KC shows. The number of private clubs is growing though. Many people belong to both. Waiting lists to join (if the list hasn't been closed) can be up to a year or two. The only KC clubs doing agility for the most part are doing AKC. USDAA, NADAC and the majority of the smaller venues do not require the clubs to be Kennel Clubs and most clubs are put together by volunteers and primarily agility clubs. I am affiliated with 3 clubs in my area but am only a member of one

 

Progression and Championships vary from venue to venue but all require that the dog/handler team acquire a certain amount of qualifying runs at each level before progressing to the next level, you do not have to win out of your class. Once you have obtained the Masters/Excellent level then you can try for your ADCH (Agility Dog Champion) USDAA, MACH -AKC and NATCH - NADAC. Each venue has certain requirements for achieving this. In AKC once the MACH is achieved you can continue to accrue the requirements and get a MACH2, MACH3 ect I know some dogs that have MACH 13 or 14, NADAC also has multiple levels of its NATCH I believe, USDAA in addition to the ADCH you can get Tounament championships, Games Championships, and lifetime awards bronze, silver, gold and platinum all requiring certain accomplishments.

 

Ribbons and Awards Normally ribbons are handed out for 1-4 at each jump height for every competition level for every class. The only place I've seen trophies is at nationals. I love the ribbons I have a special case for my title ribbons for my first agility dog now 15yrs old. I look at them and remember all the joy and hard work we put into them.

 

It seems that the European view is that it is a competitive sport and progress and awards shouldn't be too easy to achieve. We appreciate things more if we've really had to work hard for them.

 

In countries where there is less pressure numerically, the emphasis seems to be (dare I say it?) rather Marxist. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." It doesn't matter if your dog isn't really suited to excel in agility, the system will be arranged so that most people can see an achievable goal.

 

I suppose that's understandable in view of the cost of competing and distances travelled. Got to be worth going. Not so important here where it's cheaper and someone with a no-hoper dog can just use a show to have a pleasant weekend catching up with friends, with a little agility on the side. This whole statement just makes me so angry its very cold. Why shouldnt a dog and person that have performed to their very best be rewarded for it? Who cares that they are not world team or will ever put a championship on their dog. The point of the sport no matter how competitive you are should be to have fun...its not putting money in your pocket or food on the table for the avg handler dog but hey they deserve strokes for their effort too. We have a wonderful handler here on the east coast she's in her mid to late 70's and has early onset Parkinsons, but by god she can handle a dog - a border collie - at that she may not always succeed but I guarantee you people stop to watch her run and no matter what happens she gets a resounding cheer at the completion. She is what I aspire to as an elder competitor in 30 years I hope I am somewhere as good, and sweet as she is and always have a kind word

[capnree]

That's the point I was making in my response, so I think we were saying pretty much the same thing.

 

I guess I could have said it much shorter. Lengthy is what I get for trying to be semi-polite when others responded much better.

[SS Cressa]

While I know most people on this post HATE AKC (LOL saying the least)... It so far has been the nicest venue I've been too! I use to compete in USDAA but after a couple bad experience I stopped.

In AKC Almost all trial get done by 2-3pm. They are all run very smoothly. People are super nice and friendly. All the judges get paid. Everything is done is a orderly fashion. Although AKC is more gear to middle class family (they have the most money LOL) there is still enough serious competitor to have fun. You get ribbon after your height group is competed.

They also don't make your dog jump ridiculus height. If my dog can walk underneath a jump without ducking then its too high.

 

I normally always volunteer. In AKC there are always enough volunteer to keep the trial moving. There are always people who help out when needed.

 

Most shows are 3 days (Friday, Saturday, Sunday). In the summer they are outside in the winter they are inside. When there are a couple of 4 day shows in our area we always try to go!

 

Most people if they want to compete in AKC with an unregistered dog can just ILP them. We have a couple ILP dogs that look nothing like the breed they are suppose to be and they are still able to compete.

 

In AKC there are 7 jumps height: 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 26

Your dog can only jump the height it was measure for or higher -for most border collies its 16, 20, 24, 26

If you want to jump smaller you put your dog in "preferred" and it can only jump one height lower then the height it was measure for (If your dog was measure to jump 20 and you want to prefer it you could only jump 16)

 

There are 5 levels:

Novice A- For people and dogs who have never competed before- same course for Novice B but judges are more lenient. You are allowed to pass with more faults. You must have an 85 or higher out of a 100 to pass. You also have less obstacle.

Novice B- For people and dogs that have competed before but haven't advance yet. Same as Novice A

Open- for intermediate dogs. You have more obstacle and must have a score of 90 or higher to pass.

Excellent A- For advance dogs. You are only allowed to have time faults. Must have a score of 95 or higher to pass.

Excellent B- For the advance advance dogs. Must have a perfect score to pass.

All dogs start the same: Novice, Open, Excellent A, Excellent B!

To get to the next level you must have 3 clean runs under the set time.

If you had a clean run under time you ALWAYS get Rosettes... If you place in the top four you also get a placement ribbon.

 

There are also 3 different classes:

Standard: jumps, weaves, tunnels, 3 contacts obstacle, tire, table

Jumper with weaves: jumps, weaves

Fast: Its a lot like USDAA gamblers... Almost everyone uses it as a "training class" tho. This doesn't count towards anything .

 

The cost is about on average $15 per class.

 

A lot of competitor only have about 3 dogs that they compete with. I can't imagine trying to run 10 dogs in the same jump height

 

I normally only compete against 30-50 dogs in my height. While I don't compete against 250 or more dogs... it shouldn't be discredited when you win or even pass! While I am still "green" to most experience agility person since I have only competed in agility for 1 1/2yrs now, We are still competing against people who have done agility for 20+ yrs and against dogs who go to competition every weekend and are working on their +2 MACH.

 

When I place or even beat the MACH 2+ dogs or the experience handler I consider it as an accomplishment!

 

SSC

[SS Cressa]

It seems that the European view is that it is a competitive sport and progress and awards shouldn't be too easy to achieve. We appreciate things more if we've really had to work hard for them.

 

In countries where there is less pressure numerically, the emphasis seems to be (dare I say it?) rather Marxist. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." It doesn't matter if your dog isn't really suited to excel in agility, the system will be arranged so that most people can see an achievable goal.

 

I suppose that's understandable in view of the cost of competing and distances travelled. Got to be worth going. Not so important here where it's cheaper and someone with a no-hoper dog can just use a show to have a pleasant weekend catching up with friends, with a little agility on the side. This whole statement just makes me so angry its very cold. Why shouldnt a dog and person that have performed to their very best be rewarded for it? Who cares that they are not world team or will ever put a championship on their dog. The point of the sport no matter how competitive you are should be to have fun...its not putting money in your pocket or food on the table for the avg handler dog but hey they deserve strokes for their effort too. We have a wonderful handler here on the east coast she's in her mid to late 70's and has early onset Parkinsons, but by god she can handle a dog - a border collie - at that she may not always succeed but I guarantee you people stop to watch her run and no matter what happens she gets a resounding cheer at the completion. She is what I aspire to as an elder competitor in 30 years I hope I am somewhere as good, and sweet as she is and always have a kind word

 

Well Said

[juliepoudrier]

To all the folks who have responded to the OP with what appears to be a quite healthy attitude toward the sport and its meaning to you and your dogs, I applaud you! It's nice to see people who understand that a sport is really meant to be about fun with your dog. If more people had such a healthy attitude then we probably wouldn't have dogs bred especially for sport (e.g., borderjacks for flyball) and dogs run through and tossed aside simply because they won't ever be world champions. More people would be willing to consider a rescue or dog from the pound as their sports prospect. I don't compete in agility or other dog sports, but even in stockdog competitions, I've always felt that I should work with what I had and enjoy the process and the competition without allowing my big fat ego to get in the way and spoil it all. Kudos to all of you!

 

J.

[airbear]

It seems that the European view is that it is a competitive sport and progress and awards shouldn't be too easy to achieve. We appreciate things more if we've really had to work hard for them.

Er, ok. So work hard = win out at the highest levels only?

 

In countries where there is less pressure numerically, the emphasis seems to be (dare I say it?) rather Marxist. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." It doesn't matter if your dog isn't really suited to excel in agility, the system will be arranged so that most people can see an achievable goal.

Well, our trials would be very small if there weren't the good ol' Marxists who stupidly think that agility is about the partnership you have forged with your beloved dog.

 

I suppose that's understandable in view of the cost of competing and distances travelled. Got to be worth going. Not so important here where it's cheaper and someone with a no-hoper dog can just use a show to have a pleasant weekend catching up with friends, with a little agility on the side.

Oh my. Think of all the gas money, entry fees, and motel fees that I have spent just to have a pleasant weekend with my no-hoper. Now I feel like a real turd when I look at this pic that a friend took when Bear Q'ed and placed in his first ever run. And here, I thought it was a nice accomplishment, a testament to what we learned together:

 

And here I am, grinning like a fool, because Bear earned his VATChC jumping only 16", a full 10" below his measured jump height, from the Veterans class, no less, where they give you extra time! Oh, and there is no requirement to ever win out of anything to get this silly little ribbon.

Thanks for putting agility in perspective for me. I vow to never again soil the venerated fields of agility with such a mediocre specimen of a canine.

[Shetlander]

This thread got me thinking about a little essay I wrote for my club's newsletter when my first agility dog became sick. I was thanking the ECHO club members for the tremendous gift they offered me when they encouraged me as I trained my "psycho" bi-black Sheltie for agility, hiding whatever very legitimate doubts they may have had of our possible success. Bless their hearts for never suggesting he was a "no-hoper." Lots of other people had before I found them.

 

So, after months of worrying, I now hope to watch Rory quickly restored to his previous excellent health. I want to remember that even if I should lose Rory tomorrow, we have already had so much fun, excitement and happiness together. I plan to keep having fun with him every time we train, compete or simply hang out. For the rest of my time with Rory, ECHO will continue to play a very special role in our lives. You know that saying about how a family is a group of people who know you and still need to take you in? That’s how I see ECHO. Our fellow club members – friends – are there for each other. You have the same love for dogs, agility, and dog sports. You understand the special bond we develop with our dogs – our buddies. You know the tremendous amount of work, persistence and satisfaction that is involved in training and competing with dogs. You don’t always realize the positive impact you may have on someone through your kindness and encouragement. But kindness is never wasted. I guess that is why I am writing this now as I cautiously allow myself to feel some relief that Rory will be ok. I want to share how much all of you have given Rory and me over the past few years. At ECHO, you know who my dogs and I are and you still take us in.

 

I lost him several months later, but we sure had a great run in our short time together and I will always be grateful to the friends I made at ECHO. I don't know if it's because I sat in meetings at work most of today or I'm heading towards "that time of the month" or because the 4th anniversary of Rory's death is next week, but now I feel like crying (probably it's the endless meetings at work ). Time to take a shower and then curl up with a book. Quick hugs to my three companion dogs extraordinaire and dinner might help too!

[Pat W.]

Airbear,

 

Never feel that what you have accomplished is less than anyone elses accomplishments. If your goal was to go and have fun then you achieved your goal and any ribbon is gravy. I look at my old man (now 15) who retired at 13.5 from agility, as he happliy hops over a 4 inch jump and ambles after the frisbee, and remember that golden moment when we got our MAD, our ADCH, and his retirement run in USDAA nationals in '05. I think of them with great joy and pride and how much he loved doing agility even though he was never a rocket dog. I remember his first (and only) fly off on the teeter and laugh at how I must have sounded as my voice went up an octave to tell him EEEEAAAAAZZZYYY!!!!! the teeter never went past horizontal. How he would drag me to the line, and cry while he waited for his turn. I think now of my aussie who retired well before his time due to catracts in both eyes due to multiple merle x merle breedings in in his pedigree. How we struggled to get around the course some days and shone like diamonds on others, and I cry because he'll never get to do it again. So if your joy is being Bear's partner on the agility course win, lose or draw then you are both champions where it counts...in your heart. Dont let anyone else tell you different.

[MaggieDog]

airbear - at least your "no-hoper" gets ribbons.

 

We've been running off and on for 8 years now, Maggie and I, and she's still about 2 legs from her Performance Dog 1 title in USDAA. (Thats the same as starters/novice with additional time for those who don't know the ins and outs of USDAA). We have fun, and I get to meet a ton of cool people. Of course now my little Z dog is showing some pretty impressive skill on the practice field and in exhibitions after only 4 months of training so we may get out of the ranks of "no hopers" yet. :D

 

I do have to admit that I wish competitions were closer than they are here in the SE US - I'd love to only have to drive a 100 miles or so to get to a large variety of shows - not due to the cost necessarily, but so I could actually have the hope of traveling to more in just my regular 2 day weekends.

[SS Cressa]

Sister B

 

Shhhh... My no hoper may read your post.... Dont tell him he's a no hoper- he sings on the agility course- everyone KNOWS when we run, my big bad boy hits octaves a female would love! lol.

And he's smarter than me- so i worry he may know how to read .....

 

Dont know about the rest of you- but our top levels of agility (here in USA) is very competitive. My national trainer considers our "small" trials practise- and focuses on the big thing- nationals- in AKC and USDAA- then world team.

 

England averages 383 people per square kilometer.

My state and surrounding ones average around 100- or less people per square kilometer.

So you guys have bigger trials? That has nothing to do with competitiveness (is this a word?). But as for you guys work harder to win? I dont follow? Training is training- luck is luck. A golden retriever that gets titles, ribbons, and Qs still have no chance at nationals- and nationals IN USA is going against A TON MORE DOGS. ITs ALL the dogs in the USA- the top dogs, top handlers. So you have a larger per capita and larger trials. We have more people. 300 million in USA to the 60 million in UK. trust me- its a ton of talent- and a ton of competition. And just as rewarding to win big. We win big ONCE A YEAR- at nationals- you guys do it every trial- as only "the best at that trial" goes on. We get ONE shot- all the best against each other- ONE SHOT per year. so winning that, placing in that, i think is more of an accomplishment.

As for ribbons at smaller shows- rock on! All BREEDS deserve RECOGNITION- from the family " mutt" to the great dane, golden retriever, wolf hound, to name a few- not only ONE breed like the BORDER COLLIES over there. If all I saw at your shows was one fast BC after another - i may get bored. I love seing the variety, the different handling each breed requires, and that when the fast dogs fail, the other breeds clean up the points and titles! Its hilarious watching a beagle run and do the howling bark they do when excited btwn obstacles. I like that our trials are smaller- so dogs that stress can do well still- at larger trials there is alot more stressors- noise, excitement, etc. I like that our trials are more laid back- and focus on fun and competing- not every trial being a HUGE competition with the best handlers always going neck and neck.

 

Have fun over there! We have a blast over here!

[mum24dog]

If overcoming obstacles and setbacks and struggles to achieve a goal as a team is not an achievement, I don't know what is.

 

Some may not consider that an "achievement". To me, that's the kind of achievement that really matters.

 

Believe me, I do.

I would have loved to have got a clear round with my first agility dog. That would have been the pinnacle of achievement because I'd have known how hard it was to get there.

 

On the other hand, I got my 3rd dog to top level and she is still doing very well with my daughter, but I don't feel the same sense of achievement because it was relatively easy - being a medium dog in much smaller classes than large dogs get.

 

It's all relative.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Have to disagree about class size being small up here tho - my pall runs a large dog and he has pretty much never been in a KC comp where he is running against less than 200 dogs in his class

 

I didn't say small. I actually said "never small" - just smaller than down south.

 

Are you talking graded or combined classes? I've just binned our Kingdom of Fife running orders (flooded out) and it's clear that not even Grade 3 (always the biggest) is over 200. (268 graded 3-4, 255 graded 1-3) . I've never been to a Scottish show where they have been.

 

Still big by overseas standards though.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Agility maybe seems more recreational over there, though also very competitive?

 

Yes, it is certainly more recreational. And I'm sure we do get more vacation time to travel around.

As for competitive - yes, in the sense that you normally have to win to move up, but for the numbers we have competing, you would expect more handlers with the killer instinct to get to the top than we actually have.

 

I'm not bragging about the numbers we have to cope with - it's a pain in the backside. Quantity is not always quality, of course.

In Europe (excluding the UK) entries can be comparable to those in the US and there are some awesome pairings around.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Dear me - no need to be so defensive.

I'm just trying to makes sense of how different national attitudes to the same sport arise.

 

For the record - I run 2 "no-hopers". I'm a useless handler although I'm an OK trainer. Any dog we get with any talent goes to my daughter.

 

All our dogs are rescues with issues of one sort or another and I have sweated blood with some of them to get even a modest performance out of them. I couldn't give a tinker's cuss about winning anything.

 

I do applaud those who overcome difficulties, as does everyone else I know.

 

However, I don't want the system to award me consolation prizes for effort. You may disagree and that's fine. Any sense of achievement I may have comes from within and I personally do not need any tangible recognition for it.

 

On the other hand, I run a show here and I understand that others don't necessarily see things the same way. I make the decisions as to who gets what and I do my very best to make sure that awards are available to the extent that as many people as possible will go home with a smile on their faces - from the newbies with their very first clear round to the oldies at the end of their career, with even special rosettes for those who don't fit into any particular category but who a judge may consider deserves recognition.

 

(See - I'm not the hard hearted snotty b***h you thought.)

 

Our system may reward only the best with progression but it is flexible enough not to ignore the rest, if show organisers are of the same mind as me.

 

Even within the system, as I said in my OP, moves have been made towards official recognition of the achievements of those who are competent but not able to get amongst the high places by the introduction of the AW.

 

Nowhere did I claim superiority in performance here over anywhere else. In fact, I acknowledged that the top of the sport is pretty much the same anywhere, and really it doesn't seem to matter at that level what system the teams have gone through to get there. If anything we need to apply ourselves more here if we aren't to slip back. I'm a realist if nothing else. No room for complacency. It will be interesting to see how the various countries do at the KC International Festival next week.

 

Just because we have been at it longer only means that we have had more time for numbers to increase, which is encouraged by the size of our country. We have also had longer to makes mistakes and are still saddled with some of the bad ones made a long time ago. In some ways it is easier to come in later and start from scratch, having learnt from the mistakes of others and had an opportunity to think about what would work for you.

 

I mentioned European attitudes only because they operate win out systems too and not Q progression. It is important to appreciate that different cultures see life in general differently without seeing it as an attack.

 

And so many factors combine to dictate what would work in one country and not another. If I had to travel several hours and pay $20 a run, I'm sure I'd want something to show for it too. A couple of hours or less and $5 a run is a whole different ball game as far as the way I view the sport is concerned.

 

Cheap and accessible encourages a less serious attitude, I'm sure, plus we're not that great here at devoting ourselves to being the best in the world at anything.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

However, I don't want the system to award me consolation prizes for effort. You may disagree and that's fine. Any sense of achievement I may have comes from within and I personally do not need any tangible recognition for it.

 

What you don't seem to "get" is that the "system" is set up differently. Our venues don't award consolation prizes for effort - they award those who achieve the standard that has been set according to the rules of the venue.

 

The fact that we earn legs for qualifying runs, for instance, instead of placements only (I gather that's what you mean by "win") is not a "consolation prize". It is the standard that has been set.

 

The fact that we move up levels by earning a certain number of qualifying runs instead of placements is not a "consolation prize" or "less serious attitude". That is the way the game is played in the United States.

 

The fact that different venues (I mean organizations that sanction Agility trials, not places where they are held) have different rules concerning jump heights, times, what equipment is used, etc., is not a "consolation prize". It's free enterprise. The organizations exist because folks started them up. They survive because the competitors enter them. Your criticisms that stem from the fact that different venues have different rules in our country is kind of moot. Someone built them and the people came (ref. "Field of Dreams"). That is what it is. Personally, I like it that way. Having more than one game in town has a lot of perks which I appreciate.

 

I have never been to a trial where competitors who did not meet the set standard were given "consolation prizes". A "consolation prize" would be a ribbon or award for a team that did not meet the set standard, not a ribbon or award that is given according to the rules of one venue that would not have been awarded by another.

[Pat W.]

I have been to a couple of trials where a "consolation" award was given for those familiar with USDAA and the DAM team tournaments a couple of clubs give out on a regular basis the "Loki" award for the team that finishes dead last. Its all in fun and some teams and for those on the east coast you may have heard of the Famous ( or is that infamous?) "Fractured Fairy Tails" team who lived the "its all for fun" idea. Consistantly won the Loki award at one trial yearly