Jump to content
BC Boards

Pedigrees - NZ/AU Show Lines in ABCA?


Katelynn & Gang
 Share

Recommended Posts

Just an aside on the whole idea of an AKC-registered dog (and no ABCA or reciprocal registry listed concurrently) with ABCA-registered offspring - I was emailed a pedigree for a dog whose owner is looking to rehome him.

 

It appears that she got him for an AKC competition obedience prospect but he is "too easily distracted" in the competition ring and has "too much energy". The internet-generated pedigree only shows him to be ABC-registered.

 

Looking at his pedigree, he has some apparently nicely bred working-line dogs on his dam's side (reputable ISDS and ABCA and equivalent breeders). His sire's side shows lots of obedience competition "titled" dogs. The sire is shown as registered AKC and AIBC, the sire's dam as AKC, the sire's maternal grand-parents as AKC, and the sire's maternal great-parents as AIBC (1), NASDA (2), and AKC (1).

 

Of course, it is possible that the program used to generate these pedigrees on line only allows one registry and registration number for all but sire and dam of the dog, and all these dogs could have been dual-registered after all.

 

SO, for the dog in question earlier in the post, and this dog I'm talking about, is it just that the ABCA (or equivalent) registration info was not listed on a dog that was dual-registered, rather than that somehow the offspring of an AKC-only registered dog were registered by ABCA?

 

OR, did AIBC allow entry into their registry of AKC-only registered dogs (maybe from working registry lines only in near generations).

 

AND, if AIBC did allow dogs with kennel club registry only into their studbooks, were such AIBC-registered dogs (or their offspring) then allowed ABCA registration?

 

IF SO, would that provide a "back door" situation that allowed dogs of kennel club breeding to become integrated with the gene pool of working-bred dogs (loosely working-bred, as it's obvious from the pedigree I saw that several generations had been produced for competition obedience purposes and not for stockwork)? And to introduce any flaws or genetic mutations, etc., like the disease we've been discussing into ABC-registered dogs?

 

Anybody know anything more definitive about this sort of thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 167
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

AIBC has no issues with dual registration. It's one reason some working breeders who actively court the AKC also (and they do exist, sadly too many of them), have returned to the AIBC even though that service has proven uneven in its service recently.

 

However, you are correct. An AIBC registered dog can also be registered with the ABCA. I had such a dog a few years ago - in fact his pedigree read similiarly to the dog you describe (though upside down), with obedience lines on the bottom that are now AKC registered, dual registered AIBC, and ABCA lines on the top. He was a pretty nice worker but quirky and hard to handle. My struggle with him really showed how important well-rounded breeding is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, our resident expert on pedigrees and lines, you are saying that you could take an AKC-bred and registered dog (no registration with a "working" registry for it or its parents) and then dual-register it with AIBC. Then, you could take that dog (or its offspring) and then register with ABCA.

 

In other words, is this a "backdoor" entry for conformation/kennel club-bred dogs via AIBC into ABCA and therefore, any other reciprocal working registry (such as ISDS and CBCA)? And, therefore, also a way for diseases or faults (I think I've heard that dentition problems can be a common genetic issue in some AU/NZ conformation lines) as well as diluted working abilities that may be generally found in conformation lines to enter working-bred lines?

 

Yikes!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Sue R:

So, our resident expert on pedigrees and lines, you are saying that you could take an AKC-bred and registered dog (no registration with a "working" registry for it or its parents) and then dual-register it with AIBC. Then, you could take that dog (or its offspring) and then register with ABCA.

 

In other words, is this a "backdoor" entry for conformation/kennel club-bred dogs via AIBC into ABCA and therefore, any other reciprocal working registry (such as ISDS and CBCA)?

As far as I know, with CBCA, any Border Collie whose pedigree shows any dog in it registered with a Kennel Club Registry automatically gets registered with a Section B Pedigree.

 

Registration in Canada is totally different than in the United States as it is governed by the Animal Pedigree Act. CBCA cannot refuse registration of any Border Collie based on where it is registered with as long as their registration procedures are compatible, so they had to create Section A and Section B dogs. Section A dogs are those that are from recognized working registries such as ABCA, ISDS, etc.

 

The only way a Section B dog can get registered as a Section A or their progeny is to go through the ROM Program which like ABCA's is very stringent. There aren't many Section B dogs registered with CBCA.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eh, I'm not an expert, just more vocal about it than most. :rolleyes:

 

Now, it seems like the AIBC USED to exclude dogs that came from a conformation kennel like the AKC (in other words you couldn't import a Kennel Club dog and then register it AIBC - the dog has to have ISDS registration). I don't know whether this is still the case and I cn't check because I can't find any online info on the registry. And they wouldn't take AKC-only dogs. The way most dogs have dual registration through them and AKC is they were registered AIBC first. Some may have even been triple or quadruple registered until the ABCA excusion on conformation champions.

 

Most people seem (anecdotally) to have simply dropped their "working" registry when that happened and just thrown in all their chips with the AKC. So there's no back door for them, I don't believe, unless the AIBC and NASD changed their policies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some sports/AKC types dual register with either AIBC or NASDS (I forget which one). They'd like to register with ABCA, but (and I am not kidding) they go with the other registries because ABCA only allows 16 letters in a dog name and often that just doesn't allow enough space for those long freaking highfaluting kennel name/call name concoctions that these dogs usually carry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is sad but that is so true Melanie.

 

I don't know. I guess I am just a little ticked off that there are dogs like Kasper in the ABCA when so many of us breeders try to keep our working lines clean and healthy from such dogs.

 

Now we are standing here looking at dogs in our bloodlines, that should not be there in the first place, that could have possibly introduced a new and deadly mutation into our lines? It just seems so unfair!

 

If no one noticed Kasper in ABCA pedigrees till now, how many other dogs in ABCA like him are there that wer don't know about?

 

Katelynn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Promotion of the working dog within the bounds of a registry has to involve only exclusion or notation. If the dogs descended from Kasper are there legitimately, then we have to accept that they've played by the rules. That will always happen. The ABCA can't exclude any of them if they continue to play by the rules, unless they change said rules (to disallow dual registration for instance) - and even then dogs like this would be grandfathered, most likely.

 

The answer is the same that it has always been, Katelynn. Be an educated buyer. I cannot say enough for buying a dog from someone you know, respect, and can discuss in great length the history of the dog and his ancestors (this applies to puppies, too, of course). If you don't want a part of this sort of thing, make sure you buy from people who feel the same way! Plus, research the pedigree - you found this dog by searching the internet - only buy from quality working lines where you can trace back the working dogs in each generation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:Columbia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 11 months of age, I sent him to a trainer for five weeks to learn to work sheep. Unknown to me at the time, the trainer also trained him on cattle, as a surprise. I'm sure this involved a lot of getting kicked in those early stages.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

quote:Columbia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those that have asked about the dog's hip. Yes, it is the same dog who was kicked by cattle many times during his training at 11 months old and very likely suffered a dislocation at that time

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote from Joan,

First, I would be furious if a trainer I took my young dog (11 mos) to put him on cattle without my consent and let him get kicked many times. Second, in quote from the other thread regarding the HD, you don't seem to be very sure if the dog did indeed get kicked. You just state you are "I'm sure this involved a lot of getting kicked in those early stages." Did your trainer later tell you the dog did get kicked a lot? If so, why did the trainer not start the dog off on stock a bit more safe for a puppy?

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that. I'm new to this whole cattle thing but my goal is to not get my dog kicked anywhere by those huge cattle. We may not make it as cattle workers just because I can't get my nerves under control worrying about it. Sheep are so much smaller :rolleyes:

 

Columbia,

Are you actually comparing your AKC dog to your "rescue" dog? Do you still not see the difference???? Savvy is a beautiful dog, but on the trial field he looks like any other trained AKC dog. Your young one has great potential but that'll be over quick if you keep letting him get kicked in the head. I can't believe your "trainer" (and I know him by reputation only and having him judge my run once) would let that happen over and over. Talk to him. You've got to have your info crossed.

 

Just knowing the background of your rescue would keep me from breeding him. Are you really thinking about it?

Kristen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've said it before and I'll say it again - it is unusual for a dog to get kicked "many times" by cattle particularly in a short time span. Why? Because any dog with intelligence will figure something out the first time it happens! If this dog was kicked, my guess is that it was kicked once in the hip but it seems like it had a significant effect on that hip.

 

My pup was kicked (just a glancing blow) by a backwards kick from a cow or calf. He then was kicked (another very glancing blow) by a sideways kick - he didn't "anticipate" that because, until then, his only experience was that they kicked backwards. Two lessons learned by a youngster who, I freely admit, probably shouldn't have even been working around cattle at his age.

 

The trainer was, in my opinion, not right to try the dog on cattle without permission. I find it hard to believe that any responsible trainer would allow a dog to be repeatedly injured/kicked if that dog was not getting the idea to keep away from those hooves.

 

I understand folks who won't work their dogs on cattle because cattle are big and pose a danger that a smaller animal (like a sheep) doesn't (and sheep are not without their defenses). The vast majority of cattle/dog work involves minimal risk as long as it's out in the open and the dog has sense to learn.

 

Just my opinion, as usual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sue

You wrote just what I was thinking. I don't have an issue with working cattle if your own confidence with cattle can help not hender the dog.

I feel, at this time my confidence is not up to par so I am careful when putting my dog on cattle as to what cattle I'm working with. We have worked some great cattle that offered little problems, but our first time was on unbroke cattle or cattle that were fighting dogs at any turn. Bad experience for me. Not the dog. He didn't get kicked but when things got tough I called him off and he missed getting kicked by the hair on his chin. MY FAULT and I'm not willing to do that to him again unless my own feelings and confidence are up to the job.

 

I recently placed a dog that was not cutting it on sheep. She is already working the guy's cattle for him. These are unbroke cattle but the guy knows his cattle and the dog needed to have the confidence that he offers. She was always fighting the sheep, taking cheap shots, to tight, to pushy. Putting her on cattle changed her attitude right from the start.

I love it when a dog ends up in the right place and comes into thier own.

 

Kristen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have worked my best (as in a dog whose life and health I don't particularly want to risk) dog on my neighbor's unbroke cattle. They have kicked at her on occasion, but perhaps connected *maybe* once. I would think that someone training a dog on cattle would be using broke cattle--that is, cattle that are used to being worked by youngster/newbie dogs and therefore not so likely to kick a dog repeatedly. There's something fishy with that whole story.

 

As for another comment Columbia made earlier about people not talking face-to-face when it comes to AKC vs. working bred, I beg to differ. Sorry to bring this back up so late, but I went away for a long weekend and then the conversation had moved on, but I've been thinking about it and wanted to say this. The working/trialing world is small and most of us know those who straddle the fence. These folks are our friends and colleagues. No, they aren't Satan. But they have sold out in a sense. I for one, *do* talk to them. What I hear over and over is that there is money to be made in the AKC world compared to the working world. One person told me she could sell an AKC registerable pup for three times what she could get selling the same pup into a strict working home. Several people have told me that AKC folks "doing" herding also don't blink at paying high prices for training. I'm sure not all are that way, but I have seen enough going to several different trainers to know that many are quite willing to pay a lot of money for training. So, yes, we do all get along at trials, etc., but that doesn't mean we agree and that doesn't mean these things aren't discussed in person. They are.

 

As for Robin Penland, I think it's already been said, but I'll say it again, there is a difference between strictly working bred dogs that are also registered with the AKC and AKC conformation bred dogs. I'd be willing to bet a paycheck that Robin's dogs are working bred and dual registered (which doesn't make them AKC dogs in the sense Columbia means it), and that's not the same as someone taking strictly conformation-bred AKC dogs and making stars out of them. I've yet to see that happen.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kristen - We work our dogs on our cattle. They have done just a little bit of work with neighbor's cattle, and at a few cattledog clinics on broke young stock. Our cows are pretty easy although, with the advent of coyotes in our area, some can be a bit more aggressive with the dogs.

 

The only times our old Rocket got kicked bad were when Ed worked him on strange, unbroke cattle (he got a broken leg, a green stick fracture) and once working in a barn where he was kicked and his head hit a post. He was quite sight-impaired at this time and I'm sure the kick was due to not seeing it coming in time to get out of the way. Smart farmers use the dog outside and put the dog up when the work with cattle is in close quarters inside. Too much possibility of getting hurt.

 

Julie - Right on, as usual! As for Robin Penland's dogs that went to the World Trial, they appear to be strictly ABCA-bred and AKC-dual-registered, according to information on the website.

 

I have met another person who is very active in AKC and her Border Collies are also ABCA-bred but AKC-registered as well. Seems that's where she can find dogs that will work...

 

You can see folks thinking that $200-250 is too much to spend for a farm/ranch-bred and suitable pup to do real work. Other folks are willing to spend $800-1000 (or more) for a conformation-bred or performance-bred (dog sports) pup or one that's working-bred for dual-registration and hobby "herding". That's when you can see where the temptation is strong to produce and sell pups for the bigger money. It's human nature, but that doesn't make it right for the future of the working Border Collie.

 

I'm sure there are conformation-bred dogs with varying degrees of working ability but if you are looking for consistently useful dogs, you need to seek out quality working-bred pups/dogs with a solid lineage of proven working dogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
Hey Katelynn,

 

I'm not sure if you're simply a political zealot or really have your head in the sand.

 

Whether you like it or not, Australian and New Zealand conformation lines dogs are 100% Border Collie from 100% ISDS dogs. My dog's great-great-grandparents are EXACTLY the same dogs on the pedigree of top working ABCA dogs (Blwych Taff, Wiston Cap, etc.).

 

The CL gene is HIGHLY unlikely to have been a mutation that just suddenly popped up in the past 20 years. This gene is virtually certain to have been in the BC gene pool since before the breed even had a name.

 

The gene was only discovered because the original gene pool from the conformation lines in Australia began with a limited number of ISDS dogs. Therefore, each pair of dogs that were bred were likely to have at least one of the same ancestors in the pedigree. All it would take is one "bad ancestor" from the ISDS to introduce CL.

 

The "conformation progenitor" dog that introduced CL to Aussie/NZ lines is almost certain to have working littermates that stayed behind in the UK and introduced the CL gene into working lines of the ABCA and ISDS.

 

The CL gene is rare in every line of BCs, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that it is not in ISDS and ABCA dogs right now. It is rumored that at least one CL litter has been produced in England (from ISDS lines) and another in Texas (from ABCA lines)--however, the working breeders are not as forthright as the AKC/Aussie/NZ breeders and will not let their names be released to the public (if the rumor is true).

 

In any case, until a cross section of at least 500 ABCA dogs get CL tested and every one is clear, I will have to assume that they have CL in their gene pool because they come from the same bloodlines that my dog does prior to 1980 or so.

 

Columbia, MO

 

 

Excellent response, "Columbia". Like you, my BC - from OZ/NZ lines - ultimately begin with 100% ISDS BC's.

 

A friend of mine took a trip to NZ last year, and as a favor to me - went to a farm where I knew some of my dog's "common relatives" worked sheep. These are the BC's you see that crawl on top of the backs of the sheep (very very cool).... anyway... she took some photos for me. If you put my "barbie collie" (as some would call him) next to these BC's that were 100% workers... they looked exactly alike. Their "barbie" features did not inhibit their ability to work... shocking! :rolleyes:

 

I think this argument (CL) borders on dangerous, now that it is possible to test for these dreadful diseases, and so many folks refuse to test because they think it cannot happen to them. It's akin to someone refusing to get tested for Colon cancer, because only their relatives who live in Australia have died from it - and they're in America, so it can't happen to them.

 

We don't know what lurks beneath if we don't WANT to look for it. Isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

 

Also.. in my recent hunt for another BC.. I have lost COUNT of the numbers of ABCA breeders I have had contact with who not only breed their BC's for work, but for strictly companion dogs.. and who don't have a problem with ACK registration. I was pretty surprised to find this! The opinions of registered ABCA breeders varies greatly. Suffice it to say -- out of the 5 "ABCA" breeders my husband and I talked with in our general area -- 3 asked me if Murphy was neutered, and when I replied that he was not (yet), they inquired about stud services (which I would never do -- I have no intention of breeding Murphy, as there are TOO many unwanted BC's sitting in shelters as it is). I think ABCA has a long haul ahead of them.

 

I come to boards like this to glean information, so as to avoid being the one with my head firmly planted in a sand dune somewhere. What I find MOST unhelpful is the "barbie collie" cliche ... the name itself does not offend me one bit (I'll take it as a compliment), but it's always used here as a way to insult another BC owner, thus it's basically name calling.. which, in my book, is juvenile.... and, in essence, it's attacking the DOG... which is sort of silly since most dogs are unable to manipulate the mouse with their paws (and typing's sort of difficult).

 

:D

 

I am ALL for the ABCA keeping their lines "clean" and free of OZ/NZ lines. They have the right to do so - and I find it fascinating, actually. But in our hunt for a working-bred BC, our family will only invest in one that's been DNA tested... and we have no problem paying a little more for that as well...

 

The tests are out there - but we have yet to find one ABCA breeder who takes advantage of them.

Puzzling.

 

~kim

PS: My BC is not AKC registered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have lost COUNT of the numbers of ABCA breeders I have had contact with who not only breed their BC's for work, but for strictly companion dogs..

I think it is important to remember that the ABCA is merely a registry - not a keeper of the breed. Sure, the ABCA has a stance on maintaining the border collies as a working breed and does not encourage breeding based on anything outside of proven working ability, but in the end the ABCA is a database.

 

People like to use "ABCA Registered" as an automatic stamp of approval when, in reality, there is no stamp of approval beyond proven working ability. Most border collies bred and born today simply should not be. That includes breedings from backyard breeders, puppy mills, "working parents", and yes, even the much revered "Open Trial Winner."

 

Unfortunately, the definition of "proven working ability" is and will continue to be bastardized by people who want to breed their dogs while maintaining that they aren't doing harm to the breed. There's nothing anybody can do about it beyond strengthening their personal definition of what exactly proves working ability. Does running well at USBCHA trials prove working ability? Not in my eyes. Does walking on the backs of sheep prove working ability? Not in my eyes. Does gathering 5 head off a 3 acre field every day prove working ability? Not in my eyes.

 

None of those things disprove working ability, but in my less-than-humble opinion, people who breed these dogs need to actually get out and understand what work looks like before throwing Fluffy and Muffy together. Not just see, understand.

 

I have a couple of pretty good dogs and have owned a few others. I also think I understand what real dog work looks like. I have yet to own a dog that meets my personal definition of breed worthy - including "open trial winners" and one that did well at the Nursery Finals and is now neutered.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it is important to remember that the ABCA is merely a registry - not a keeper of the breed. Sure, the ABCA has a stance on maintaining the border collies as a working breed and does not encourage breeding based on anything outside of proven working ability, but in the end the ABCA is a database.

 

People like to use "ABCA Registered" as an automatic stamp of approval when, in reality, there is no stamp of approval beyond proven working ability. Most border collies bred and born today simply should not be. That includes breedings from backyard breeders, puppy mills, "working parents", and yes, even the much revered "Open Trial Winner."

 

Unfortunately, the definition of "proven working ability" is and will continue to be bastardized by people who want to breed their dogs while maintaining that they aren't doing harm to the breed. There's nothing anybody can do about it beyond strengthening their personal definition of what exactly proves working ability. Does running well at USBCHA trials prove working ability? Not in my eyes. Does walking on the backs of sheep prove working ability? Not in my eyes. Does gathering 5 head off a 3 acre field every day prove working ability? Not in my eyes.

 

None of those things disprove working ability, but in my less-than-humble opinion, people who breed these dogs need to actually get out and understand what work looks like before throwing Fluffy and Muffy together. Not just see, understand.

 

I have a couple of pretty good dogs and have owned a few others. I also think I understand what real dog work looks like. I have yet to own a dog that meets my personal definition of breed worthy - including "open trial winners" and one that did well at the Nursery Finals and is now neutered.

 

 

Thank you for your refreshingly open and honest input, Glen.

 

What you wrote about the ABCA being merely a registry, and not a keeper of the breed can certainly be applied to any and every dog registry - including the AKC.

 

No registry can possibly babysit each and every member.... unfortunately.

 

As for the BC's that walked on the sheeps' backs in NZ -- I know that doesn't prove a thing... but it's their unquestionable rationalization for NEEDING to walk on the sheeps' backs that I find extraordinary.

 

A dog can be trained to do just about anything, and look convincing doing it....but

it's what they do WITHOUT training that takes my breath away.

 

~kim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The tests are out there - but we have yet to find one ABCA breeder who takes advantage of them.

Puzzling.

 

Kim I am sorry that you are yet to have found a breeder that DNA tests their breeding stock. That is upsetting, same as Border Collies being shown in conformation and just as horrifying as breeding stock not being proven on livestock! :rolleyes: Gosh, what is this World coming to? When a working breed isn't even worked before being bred!

 

If you'd like help finding a breeder with strict working lines that DNA test their dogs for the diseases (well, disease, which would be CEA) known to their working breed registered with the ISDS, ABCA and CBCA, the please email me and I'll be glad to point you in the correct direction. I am, after all, one of many ABCA breeders that do indeed DNA test as well as test the ability and soundness of my own breeding stock before breeding.

 

I am glad your dog isn't AKC registered but where is he registered then? I mean, with ABCA breeders asking to bred their bitchs to him? After all, all responsibly breeders know well enough that only dogs from ABCA, CABA, ISDS, AIBC, and NASDS are allowed to have ABCA registered puppies. Unless these ABCA breeders were registering their puppies with only the AKC which in return would make them really AKC breeders that are not DNA testing (and if they are wanting to bred with a dog from AU they'd not only have to DNA test for CEA but also CL and TNS which is another new one for the AU conformation lines).

 

Katelynn

The Zealot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One person told me she could sell an AKC registerable pup for three times what she could get selling the same pup into a strict working home. Several people have told me that AKC folks "doing" herding also don't blink at paying high prices for training. I'm sure not all are that way, but I have seen enough going to several different trainers to know that many are quite willing to pay a lot of money for training. So, yes, we do all get along at trials, etc., but that doesn't mean we agree and that doesn't mean these things aren't discussed in person. They are.

 

J.

 

I beg to differ -- as we have been actively searching for another BC for the past 6 months, and I have found no differences in pricing - ABCA or AKC.. and sometimes even NOTHING (no registry at all). The most expensive pup I came across recently was by chance.. online. It was ABCA registered and was in the thousands of dollars! Crazy! I will see if I can find that link -- will take some digging.

 

Anyway, generalizations made just because we find one or two people doing something unusual can be very unfair if it taints the "whole bunch". Just because I've come across ABCA registered pups from breeders who are indifferent to what those pups are used for, or what org. they're registered with, does not mean I think all ABCA breeders are that way.

 

I have also found many many herding clinics to be quite expensive. I've seen nothing in the event information about AKC, ABCA, etc etc.... just their prices.

 

I used to be a competitive ice skater. I started off with middle-of-the range ice skates.. not cheap.. not expensive. The hoity toity skaters I kept company with (LOL) all had skates that cost THOUSANDS of dollars. Eventually, I had a pair of those thousand dollar skates (well, it's really the cost of the boot AND the blade, sold separately, that then adds up to $1,000)... and to be honest.. I didn't skate any better or any worse than I had with my mid-range ones.

The same lesson can be learned with buying new cars, etc.

 

Perhaps some people think that by paying for a more expensive trainer (or dog), they are somehow getting better trained..... or that you get what you pay for. But I don't think this error in judgement is exclusive to those who are registered with AKC.

 

:rolleyes:

 

~kim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kim I am sorry that you are yet to have found a breeder that DNA tests their breeding stock. That is upsetting, same as Border Collies being shown in conformation and just as horrifying as breeding stock not being proven on livestock! :D Gosh, what is this World coming to? When a working breed isn't even worked before being bred!

 

If you'd like help finding a breeder with strict working lines that DNA test their dogs for the diseases (well, disease, which would be CEA) known to their working breed registered with the ISDS, ABCA and CBCA, the please email me and I'll be glad to point you in the correct direction. I am, after all, one of many ABCA breeders that do indeed DNA test as well as test the ability and soundness of my own breeding stock before breeding.

 

I am glad your dog isn't AKC registered but where is he registered then? I mean, with ABCA breeders asking to bred their bitchs to him? After all, all responsibly breeders know well enough that only dogs from ABCA, CABA, ISDS, AIBC, and NASDS are allowed to have ABCA registered puppies. Unless these ABCA breeders were registering their puppies with only the AKC which in return would make them really AKC breeders that are not DNA testing (and if they are wanting to bred with a dog from AU they'd not only have to DNA test for CEA but also CL and TNS which is another new one for the AU conformation lines).

 

Katelynn

The Zealot

 

LOL - Katelynn the zealot... I'm glad you have a sense of humor. :D

 

My dog is registered with the JKC (Japan). We found him while living in Okinawa, Japan... completely by chance. I only came across a HANDFUL of BC's while living there -- most are in mainland Japan, where conformation and herding are taking OVER the country, and acquiring Border Collies is now in fashion, sadly. :rolleyes:

 

I will not register Murph with the AKC, as I have no plans to show him or breed him. We have just returned from JP last summer, and are now BURIED IN SNOW... (ugh).... but hope to have him involved in SOME activity this spring/summer. What.. I have no clue.. but we'll find him something fulfilling to do.

 

I have not yet had him neutered.. as I did not trust the vets in Japan (for EVEN something as simple as neutering)... but will be doing so soon.

 

Our first goal has been to find a BC rescue -- which we continue to pursue. However, I have some excellent leads on BC litters upcoming --- from the UK, and two in the U.S. - but I thank you for your offer. It just took a LOT of digging and effort. Our initial search, however, did not find one ABCA breeder who did more than just CEA.

I have much concern about CHD, which I know to be in many working lines (although many will deny this, unfortunately), and now with CL, TNS, epilepsy, etc etc... I just think it can avoid a lot of heartbreak to find a BC that has as much DNA background on it as possible. Been there.. done that as far as serious heartbreak (with our GSD - a long time ago).

 

Thank you for your kind offer, Katelynn.. it is much appreciated.

 

~Kim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL - Katelynn the zealot... My dog is registered with the JKC (Japan).

 

I will not register Murph with the AKC, as I have no plans to show him or breed him.

 

Our initial search, however, did not find one ABCA breeder who did more than just CEA.

I have much concern about CHD, which I know to be in many working lines (although many will deny this, unfortunately), and now with CL, TNS, epilepsy, etc etc... I just think it can avoid a lot of heartbreak to find a BC that has as much DNA background on it as possible. Been there.. done that as far as serious heartbreak (with our GSD - a long time ago).

 

 

Anyone know if AKC takes JKC dogs? I'm guessing they do. Which only leads me to believe that the breeders that were asking you to breed, owning ABCA dogs or not, are really just AKC breeders using ABCA dogs for foundation (its become a fad I'd say). In this case, you'd have to worry about AKC breeders not DNA testing, not ABCA breeders but there is their share of both. I'm glad Murphy will not be registered with the AKC, good for you.

 

I'd love to know what ABCA breeders you found that also DNA test for CL and TNS, along with CEA? There are some high volume breeders that I'd guess might because it would appeal to the AKC buyer but besides that, most ABCA breeders have no idea what CL and TNS are because they are nonexistent in their breed (as in dogs from pedigrees that are strictly from dogs that are registered ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, NASDS, and AIBC) and it will be so until there is any solid proof supporting different, no matter how many claims there are to be made.

 

CHD is not tested for in a DNA test. Someday maybe but until then all breeders have to depend on OFA to grade their dogs hips. As for your GSD, I’m sorry. We also had GSDs and thanks to the conformation ring (aka AKC) the breed is now unsound in conformation and a heart break awaiting to happen for any loving owner.

 

As for CL and TNS. If you are buying a dog from AU lines, it is a must that the parents be tested for this. CL and TNS have only been proven to be found in dogs that come from AU blood, no matter where they live (or are born) when they are tested. The only logical reasoning for this is that when breeding any animal for conformation there is a lot of inbreeding to lock the desired look in. Considering how small the gene pool of Border Collies in AU was when they started breeding for conformation the inbreeding was doubled or even tripled. Inbreeding causes genetic mutation which is a fact that everyone in the world knows which is why you cannot marry your brother, sister or so on here in the United Sates.

 

So, in the end, considering all the inbreeding and the small fact that CL and TNS have not shown up in Border Collies from solid working registries for over a hundred years, I’d have to come to my own conclusion that the conformation breeders of AU brought these two nasty diseases into their own existence inside their own small gene pool while breeding for conformation.

 

So if TNS (just recently found) and CL have only ever shown up in AU conformation lines, what is going to start showing up in the next few generations? How long is it going to take to be identified? Days, months, years? Is it going to affect your dog if you buy a dog from conformation breeding with AU blood? There are all question you have to ask yourself before picking a breeder and a bloodline. After all, its your own heart you are working with here and buying yourself as litter heart break as possible sounds like your goal.

 

Epilepsy doesn’t have a DNA test yet either. Best thing you can do there is try and find a bloodline or breeding that hasn’t produced it (its rare).

 

So, just make sure you do your home work before getting a puppy and make sure the breeder you are working with knows what their breed is and what they are talking about.

 

Katelynn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

>

 

Then what's your point?

 

The ABCA recommends testing breeding stock for CEA and CHD. You can find their recommendations here. I can refer you to scores of ABCA breeders who do these tests. (But since you're not currently looking for a breeder, again I'm not sure what your point is.) I don't know of any ABCA breeders who test for CL or TNS -- certainly none I would recommend do -- and I doubt any will, simply because its alleged existence in non OZ/NZ lines is just a rumor (to use Columbia's word). So if that is a must for you, you'll probably have to look elsewhere for your dog.

 

>

 

That's a pretty weak analogy, as I'm sure you'll realize if you think about it for a minute or two. It's more akin to Scandinavians with no known African or Mediterranean heritage failing to get tested for the sickle cell gene. Do you think owners of basenjis have their heads in the sand if they don't have their dogs tested for CEA before breeding them? I mean, just because CEA has never been found in basenjis doesn't mean they can't get it. Just because the CEA gene has never been found in a basenji doesn't mean it might not be lurking, either the result of a misbreeding way back or a mutation. The more DNA tests you can have your dog undergo the better, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my thinking, if you find a breeder of working dogs at this point, who is testing for CL and TNS, then you are buying a puppy with heated/cooled cupholders and those little rainwipers on the headlights. WAY over the top and just an excuse to jack up the price on the pup 30%, 50%, or more. Maybe we should screen our lines for luxating patellas and cherry eye too? Shhh, c'mere, I've got a litter of pups I can GUARANTEE are free of syringomyelia and brachycephalic syndrome. They'll only cost $2000 each - but I can give you a lifetime guarantee on those and I'll throw in CEA, CL, and a TNS upgrade for free!

 

It's pretty simple. The show folks don't want to believe that there are at least two distinct populations of Border Collies, while the facts surrounding disease incidence bear out our feeling that they've cast that ship out to sea many generations ago - of their own doing. Heaven knows why they can't leave well enough alone and just go on their way - WE don't want to corrupt their lines with our unwashed, untested dogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do people breed show and working lines together? And, if so, would this throw a fly in the ointment so to speak, of expectations of general freedom from the disease, of so called working BC's?

Julie

 

 

In my thinking, if you find a breeder of working dogs at this point, who is testing for CL and TNS, then you are buying a puppy with heated/cooled cupholders and those little rainwipers on the headlights. WAY over the top and just an excuse to jack up the price on the pup 30%, 50%, or more. Maybe we should screen our lines for luxating patellas and cherry eye too? Shhh, c'mere, I've got a litter of pups I can GUARANTEE are free of syringomyelia and brachycephalic syndrome. They'll only cost $2000 each - but I can give you a lifetime guarantee on those and I'll throw in CEA, CL, and a TNS upgrade for free!

 

It's pretty simple. The show folks don't want to believe that there are at least two distinct populations of Border Collies, while the facts surrounding disease incidence bear out our feeling that they've cast that ship out to sea many generations ago - of their own doing. Heaven knows why they can't leave well enough alone and just go on their way - WE don't want to corrupt their lines with our unwashed, untested dogs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...