Pedigrees - NZ/AU Show Lines in ABCA?

[Columbia MO]

Originally posted by Journey:

Columbia, you say the above and yet then you say that you know CL is in the working border collie lines w/o any proof.

 

Sounds as though you believe in the show bred border collie over the working bred on many levels.

 

If you disagree with how ABCA deregisters conformation champions why do you want to participate in the ROM program? Why do you want a ABCA registered dog?

Karen,

 

In reponse to the quote above:

 

I did not even come close to saying I "know" CL is in the working lines. I said that it is very likely to be in the working lines but that chance has not yet led to two carriers being bred. It may indeed be less frequent in working lines. However, until about 500 working lines dogs are tested clear of CL, I don't believe that there is any way anybody can claim that they do NOT have carriers. As mentioned on this list, 1) one littermate of a known carrier is already 3 generations ensconced in the ABCA bloodline, and 2) littermates of the original carrier that was imported to Australia (around 1900-1920) are very likely to have been bred and remained in the working lines in ISDA and ABCA dogs.

 

Regarding that I think "show bred" dogs are superior to "working bred" dogs, please let me know where I have EVER insinuated this. If you look through this thread, all I have done is mention that genetic problems and inbreeding occur in both groups.

 

And regarding the ROM program, I would like to have my young dog ROM'd because his parents and all other relatives are ABCA-registered dogs and because several ABCA working people have expressed an interest in breeding to him if I can get him registered (I think everybody here will agree that a dog that CAN pass the ROM test is worth breeding from).

 

Columbia, MO

[cgt]

I think everybody here will agree that a dog that CAN pass the ROM test is worth breeding from).

I know you probably think I am obnoxious, and you may be right, but I can't help stirring the pot here.

 

*I* certainly do NOT think ROM is NEARLY good enough to justify breeding. I would want a dog which, for example, places consistently in Open trials, or at least can work at that level of proficiency in a wide variety of practical situations (i.e., not just "at home"). And I don't think I am being an extremist relative to the working dog community.

 

charlie

[Pearse]

I agree with Charlie.

 

Ability to pass a ROM test is not proof of worth for breeding by itself.

 

Nor is competing in Novice/Ranch/ProRanch.

 

Nor is simply competing in Open.

 

A dog that places in the top 20% in Open trials consistently may be worth breeding to, or a dog that is exceptional in its ability to work daily on a farm or ranch. Exceptional is the key word in both cases.

 

There may be ProNovice/Ranch/Novice dogs or Open dogs that don't place that are worth breeding too and are not competing at a higher level because of handler/trainer inexperience but I'd want someone who really knew dogs to tell me one of those dogs is worth breeding to

[Columbia MO]

Charlie & Pearse,

 

Have you ever read the rules for the ROM program? I think you guys must be confused and think I'm talking about the AKC Herding Instinct Test or something!

 

For the ABCA ROM program, the usual route is that the dog has to score in the top 10% at three different Open trials. The other route is that the dog has to do Open level work off his home turf on stock he has never worked... in front of at least 3 members of the ABCA BOD... and the other 9 BOD members have to see video of it... and the dog has to be unanimously approved by all 12 BODs.

 

In addition, the dog and both parents (if alive) must score OFA Good or Excellent and pass a CERF eye exam, and the dog has to submit an ABCA pedigree if available.

 

The ROM requirements are so stringent that only 7 dogs in history have ever gotten a ROM.

 

You may or may not like the 7 dogs that have ROMd in, but they've proven a lot more about their abilities than the thousands of non-trained, non-working ABCA dogs here in Missouri that are owned and bred by rural back yard breeders and who have no problem registering the offspring with ABCA.

 

Columbia, MO

[Smokjbc]

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...ic;f=4;t=001613 >>

 

 

Is this the dog in question? Did you ever deterimine whether the severe unilateral hip dysplasia was traumatic or genetic? Does OFA allow for trauma in their certifications?

[Pearse]

Read 'em, understand 'em - haven't changed my mind.

 

Listen, this is not directed against your dog or you. I know nothing about either. You may have the next Wiston Cap there and if you do more power to you, and I'll have a pup please.

 

And you'll get no argument from me, nor from Charlie I'd chance to guess, about ROM dogs vs generic dogs. But, registration with ABCA is not the issue. Breeding is. There are too many crap dogs getting bred.

 

ONLY DOGS OF EXCEPTIONAL WORKING ABILITY OUGHT TO BE BRED.

 

I don't care if they are registered, unregistered, ROM, ABCA, AKC, ISDS, PhD, prick eared, tipped eared, fluffy, smooth, navy blue or green with pink polka dots. If they don't work stock better than 80% of the dogs out there, they probably don't need to be bred.

 

There's no shortage of mediocre dogs. Only great ones.

 

Pearse

[Loretta]

I have to say I was wondering the same thing Jaime--I just hadn't found the topic yet.

 

Loretta Mueller

Pierz, Minnesota

[cgt]

You may or may not like the 7 dogs that have ROMd in, but they've proven a lot more about their abilities than the thousands of non-trained, non-working ABCA dogs here in Missouri that are owned and bred by rural back yard breeders and who have no problem registering the offspring with ABCA.

I certainly agree with that.

 

But I thought the issue I was addressing is what dogs should be bred??

 

I don't think those "rural back yard" dogs should be bred, of course. I guess I was just having a knee-jerk reaction to the idea that ABCA registration was somehow a stamp of approval for breeding purposes. That's part of where I was going with the "why register?" stuff.

 

 

charlie

[Journey]

I know it has been rumored (I have no backup on this) that a totally-ABCA-lines dog was found to have CL in Texas, but the breeder refused to allow publication of the dog or bloodlines.

Sory Columbia, mis-quoted you from the above post. Not that you "know" it's in the ABCA lines but from you mentioning the above it lead me to believe you believed it to be true.

 

Thanks Jamie for finding the post on TPO on the dog.

 

Isn't this dog also a "rescue". Have you had a DNA test for parentage done on him and his sire and dam? Just asking since he came from a BYB that was raided if I recall. Are you positive, with factual proof, that he is who you think he is?

 

Even still, if he's a nice working dog have fun with him. You've said before you're not a "breeder" why do you want to think about becoming one with an unregistered rescue with a possible damaged hip (if it's the same dog)?

 

Karen

[cgt]

Uh-oh.

[Columbia MO]

For those that have asked about the dog's hip. Yes, it is the same dog who was kicked by cattle many times during his training at 11 months old and very likely suffered a dislocation at that time.

 

It is impossible to know without having taken pre-training x-rays, but two of the three ortho vets that have seen the x-rays say it is definitely trauma, given that his other hip is a Good/Excellent AND that he was known to have been kicked by cattle and immediately come up lame.

 

The third vet says he is personally inclined to think it is trauma but is required to repeat the OFA party line that "all HD is inherited." In the meantime, the dog is undergoing physical therapy, getting lots of supplements, and is showing major improvement. He is working stock with no sign of lameness, and will be spending all of November traveling around Brazil participating in stockdog clinics.

 

He will be re-x-rayed at 24 months old. If his hips can both make Good/Excellent, we will proceed with the ROM. If not, he will neither be ROMd or bred from. In answer to one of your questions, OFA scores (required for the ROM) are based on the worst hip. I believe PennHip scores both hips separately.

 

Columbia, MO

 

P.S. This is my last post to this thread. I'm going to go enjoy the weekend. Heck, maybe I can make big $$$ by breeding my dog a few dozen times, eh Jodi?

 

Over and out!

[workindogs]

Originally posted by Columbia MO:

I think everybody here will agree that a dog that CAN pass the ROM test is worth breeding from.

Actually, I don't agree....I may still not care for the dog as a breeding prospect. Furthermore, despite what the dog does and how impressively it works, it still packs genetics (good, bad or misguided) of its ancestry and if that ancestry is unknown or disagreeable (ie show lines, unstable temperment, poor working ability, genetic health problems) then I don't think I'd want to risk passing that forward when the outcome of a different known breeding might have better predictability.

 

I might appreciate and respect a particular dog/handler team for achieving a ROM, but more goes into making a decision to breed....you can't ignore the genetics behind the dog.

[Sue R]

For those that have asked about the dog's hip. Yes, it is the same dog who was kicked by cattle many times during his training at 11 months old and very likely suffered a dislocation at that time.

This quote has really concerned me in terms of the "...kicked by cattle many times during his training...". I referenced the original post about this dog and seem to recall he was with the trainer for about five weeks or so.

 

I'm clearly a novice but we've started (with help or not, and somewhat well-done or not on our part) several young Border Collies and an Aussie on cattle and have found a kick that connects to the dog to be quite the exception rather than something that happens repeatedly.

 

Also, when I've attended several cattledog clinics, the young stock used have been dog-broke and I've seen very few kicks that made any contact with a dog, even a youngster just starting on stock or cattle. I am curious as to what type of cattle this youngster of 11 months was started on and why he seems to have received "many" kicks to his one hip that resulted in his dysplasia.

 

It is very rare that any of our cattle manage to connect with one of our dogs. To think that a dog wouldn't get the idea to work in a manner to avoid being kicked (repeatedly and in the same location) just surprises me. That's why dogs learn to hit the heel and not the hock.

 

My pup has been on sheep for a few minutes at a time just a few times, and has been out with us in the pasture when we've been fetching/driving the cowherd or weanlings to feed or new pasture. He's gotten one very light and glancing kick to the head and a sideways kick as he passed a weanling. Each time you could see his surprise at the kick, the thought process kicking in (no pun intended), and a reworking of his approach to the animals as a result. He wasn't put off working them, but just worked them "smarter".

 

I am sure that a single kick could do some real damage but the concept of a dog apparently not learning and changing its approach to the stock gives me some concern. Also, couldn't the trainer intervene to make this a learning experience to solve the problem but seemed to allow it to continue, as the post implies?

 

I'm a novice with a small farm and a few dogs, and very limited experience and ability. I am likely missing something here, I'm sure. Either way, I hope the dog can be helped to be sound again.

 

Best wishes!

[Sue R]

...One of the top AKC herding competitors represented the USBCHA at the 2005 ISDS Internationals, and was also chair of conformation at the AKC BCSA Nationals...[her]AKC dog made it to the Internationals. How many ABCA dogs on the list got to compete?

Perhaps I'm also missing something here but, according to this individual's website, the dogs in question both have ABCA sires and dams. Is it really right to call them "AKC dogs" when they are simply ABCA dogs also registered with AKC and run in both USBHCA and AKC venues?

 

All Border Collies as far as I understand, come originally from the working dogs of the Border Counties. Some are the product of many generations of responsible breeding for quality working dogs. Some are Border Collies in name only as they haven't been bred for the unique abilities and characteristics that define the breed. They are descendents of Border Collies. How far removed from good breeding for working ability are the dogs you are proudly calling "AKC dogs", or are they really ABCA dogs that have been registered AKC for a generation or two?

 

The characteristics that have been bred for for numerous generations won't be "lost" in a few generations of careless breeding or breeding for "other traits", but they will certainly be diminished and/or lost over time. When an organization (AKC) places emphasis on superfluous (coat, ear set, color, etc.) or unsubstantiated (conformation, angulation, gait, etc.) characteristics that are often determined by style, it isn't long before the real suite of characteristics that define a breed with a "purpose" (like the Border Collie) will be diluted and eventually lost in terms of being unique and worthwhile.

 

The Kennel Club (UK) makes the point with regards to gundogs (and it is easily extrapolated to working stockdogs) that a person seeking a dog for "field work" is best served by going to a breeder that selects and breeds for field work than one that produces show dogs. I think that's a pretty self-explanatory and obvious point that has ready application to working dogs or any dog bred for a purpose.

 

Just my opinions, for what little they are worth. Some folks have made very good and educational points with regards to several ideas/questions in this thread. Thank you for your input.

[workindogs]

Originally posted by Sue R:

[qb]...One of the top AKC herding competitors represented the USBCHA at the 2005 ISDS Internationals, and was also chair of conformation at the AKC BCSA Nationals...[her]AKC dog made it to the Internationals. How many ABCA dogs on the list got to compete?[/qb

I think Columbia Mo must be referring to Robin Penland's attendance of the World Trial in 2005. The US is not invited to the "Internationals" which is generally referred to as the International Supreme. Because of the extreme cost and complications involved in traveling to the UK and competing at the Worlds, it ended up that many of the top "qualified" hands that qualified under the original rules chose not to go. Leaving many spots open with no one willing to take them. In the end, just about any Open handler with points, "want to" and money to spend could sign up and go. I guess I could have gone....likely Sam, Geri, Denise, Charie or Glen.

The handler you are referring to is very experienced and a long time successful Open handler. But her dogs are bred from ABCA working lines and cross registered with AKC. Your point is not very well made in this example.

[J.E.S]

At 11 months of age, I sent him to a trainer for five weeks to learn to work sheep. Unknown to me at the time, the trainer also trained him on cattle, as a surprise. I'm sure this involved a lot of getting kicked in those early stages.

For those that have asked about the dog's hip. Yes, it is the same dog who was kicked by cattle many times during his training at 11 months old and very likely suffered a dislocation at that time

First, I would be furious if a trainer I took my young dog (11 mos) to put him on cattle without my consent and let him get kicked many times. Second, in quote from the other thread regarding the HD, you don't seem to be very sure if the dog did indeed get kicked. You just state you are "I'm sure this involved a lot of getting kicked in those early stages." Did your trainer later tell you the dog did get kicked a lot? If so, why did the trainer not start the dog off on stock a bit more safe for a puppy?

Anyway, it sounds as if you are only hoping the dog did get kicked and that is the reason for the "unilateral" HD.

I have a dog that was diagnosed with unilateral HD. One hip was perfectly fine the other not so fine. He was never injured and most of the other pups in this particular litter came up dysplastic. One so bad he was put down. My dog is neutered.

 

Joan

[Sue R]

originally posted by Columbia MO and quoted by Sue R:...One of the top AKC herding competitors represented the USBCHA at the 2005 ISDS Internationals, and was also chair of conformation at the AKC BCSA Nationals...[her]AKC dog made it to the Internationals. How many ABCA dogs on the list got to compete

originally posted by workindogs: The handler you are referring to is very experienced and a long time successful Open handler. But her dogs are bred from ABCA working lines and cross registered with AKC. Your point is not very well made in this example.

I am aware of the difference between the Supreme International and the World Sheepdog Championships but I'm not sure the poster originally referring to this handler is aware of which different events these two comprise.

 

And, yes, as the World Trial invitation was "open" initially to the first so many finishers at the National Finals, and then "open" to others that were interested and could afford to go (with or without sponsorships), it was essentially open to individuals that might not have truly "qualified" to go and compete in that venue. For all I know (which is very little), everyone who went may have been admirably qualified, as I know a number certainly were, but there was no guarantee of qualification for all.

 

My point precisely is what you are elaborating on, which is that just because a dog is ABCA-bred and then dual-registered with AKC, doesn't make it an "AKC dog" genetically. It's just an ABCA dog that has the misfortune to also be registered with AKC, and perhaps erroneously be held up as an "example" of what good workers AKC dogs are when, in reality, it is no more an AKC dog in breeding than my dog. It just has an extra set of papers, experience in another venue, and lots of letters potentially added to its name.

 

As for the statement by this same poster that ISDS-style classes for all but Open and Nursery are considered by many to be "just for fun" as they don't result in "titles" for dogs, I do run my dog in Novice "just for fun" and hope to improve myself and my dog to advance someday into higher-level classes. But tell that these classe are "just for fun" to the many top handlers who run young dogs in lower classes to get mileage and experience on them as they work their way up to Nursery and Open. Tell them that the classes don't matter and they are just doing it "just for fun". Tell that to folks who are starting out with the aspiration to become Open-level handlers themselves one day, or even just to improve their handling and their dog's abilities as much as they can.

 

The pursuit of titles is, in my opinion, rather meaningless and self-serving. The proof of a dog's ability to do the work is a meaningful endeavor, on the farm/ranch and on the ISDS-style trial field. Just my opinions, from a decidedly novice point of view.

[Smokjbc]

First, I would be furious if a trainer I took my young dog (11 mos) to put him on cattle without my consent and let him get kicked many times. Second, in quote from the other thread regarding the HD, you don't seem to be very sure if the dog did indeed get kicked. You just state you are "I'm sure this involved a lot of getting kicked in those early stages." Did your trainer later tell you the dog did get kicked a lot? If so, why did the trainer not start the dog off on stock a bit more safe for a puppy?>> Joan

 

 

I thought the same thing- in the original thread, it seemed very unknown what had caused the hip dysplasia and there was no specific incident that she could pin it on. These dogs can be pretty stoic, but I have a hard time believing a dog could be kicked so hard that it was rendered dysplastic without notice. Secondly, I have competed in cow dog trials for several years now and I can only recall two incidents in which my dog was injured. Once, Nellie received a hard kick to the face, and believe me I knew it when it happened. The seccond time my old dog Rhett, who had worked cows for years and would grip hard and fearlessly, got "rung" ..kicked so hard that she became disoriented and had to be carried out of the arena. Neither dog stopped working immediately at the time of the injury but it was clear that the kick hurt them. Both dogs had no serious injury once they recovered from the initial pain/shock. I can't imagine a dog being kicked enough to displace a hip and not be noticed at all by the trainer. Nor do I think getting kicked all the time is necessarily part of being trained as a cow dog. How the dog responds when they do get kicked is important, but the trainer needs to have the dog ready to keep them out of trouble , especially a youngster.

[workindogs]

Sue

I was responding to Columbia Mo....certainly not disagreeing with your points. I agree with you.

[Katelynn & Gang]

Well I am guessing her dog does have some working lines but I asked earlier and had no reply. But she did write earlier ?My dog's great-great-grandparents are EXACTLY the same dogs on the pedigree of top working ABCA dogs (Blwych Taff, Wiston Cap, etc.).?

 

So, if Blwch Taff and Winston Cap are her dogs Great Great Grand Sires (fourth generation) then her dog must from some sort of working lines.

 

Great breeding crossed with mediocre breeding (conformation dogs) can throw back good or okay dogs. That is the miracle of good breeding.

 

I just cannot believe the BCSA paid out a five hundred dollar grant for these puppy mill dogs to be rescued but didn?t insist they were spayed/neutered! But I shouldn?t be to shocked, with AKC?s new choice to fully support puppy mills to fill their pockets.

 

I?d like to know what Open Handlers would like to breed with your dog, knowing out right that he has came up lame more then once and has HD to the pint where it may need to be corrected. Plus, the fact that its possible his pedigree may or may not be accurate based on where he is from?

 

And we are getting slack about ABCA?

 

What about BCSA supporting ?rescuer breeders? of "possible" (sorry, I thought it was a sure thing in the last thread but maybe I missed something) HD affected dogs?

 

Katelynn

[Sue R]

Elizabeth - I thought your remark was primarily addressed to Columbia MO but wasn't positive. I was pretty sure we were on the same wavelength but thought I'd better clarify my remarks.

 

Are you going to the Nationals at all? I can hardly wait until they are in the East next year and hope to be able to volunteer. I've already "warned" my hubby that I'd be tied up for a week or so...

 

Best wishes!

[workindogs]

Sue

 

I have two dogs entered in the Open Finals and I'm part of the volunteer army of workers.

 

I'm not sure I'll make it East next year, but I'd sure like to. It would be great to meet people I only hear about or talk to over the internet.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I am one of the owner of the ROM dogs....as far as I know, there are only four that got a ROM....perhaps Eileen can shed some light on this.....

 

 

I thought long and hard about breeding Tess after she got her ROM. Just by getting her ROM was not sufficient ground to breed her. Other criterias was her placing at the 2001 Finals (6th in Nursery) and multiple high placing in Open classes....I think she got 3rd on day in Seclusival, placed thirty something out of 150 or so dog overall one yr in Bluegrass.....ran at National in Open two years aog and works her heart out at my sheep farm and also works cows.

 

Her first litter....one qualified and ran at the Cow Dog Nursery Finals and then a few months later, ran and qualified for the Sheepdog Nurseries....not that many Nursery dogs can run and qualify in BOTH areas. Out of the same litter, another one qualified and also placed high in Open in sheep. Another one has won in Open and the others are running in Open and doing quite well. Based on this I did a repeat breeding and the pups from the second litter are great workers. I have repeat buyers for her pups. Some of the pups went to working cattle and sheep farms.

 

I did find out more about her history....her grandmother was a German bred dog and one of the top trial bitches in Germany. Her grandsire was a son of Price's Davy. On her other side, they are working dogs from cattle ranches. I talked to a cattle rancher in Canada and showed him her papers....he said she had some of the top cattle lines. Some of her lines on that side were top trial (famous) trial dogs in Canada.

 

So not only did she have to prove herself in getting a ROM, working, trials, and knowing her history ...she also proved her self by working sheep at my place and by working cows at the second largest cattle ranch in Canada. She also have a good temperment and hip/eyes etc are good.

 

Getting the ROM was a piece in my decision in whether ot bred her or not. ask yourself this question "Is your dog of such merit that the pups will contribute to the true legacy of the working Border Collie?"

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I see the ROM as a way to get access to talented blood that might be otherwise left out (and the gene pool narrowed for the worse). For instance, I've got an unregistered pup. His mama isn't registered through one of those "change of hands din't get all the t's crossed" stories so now Rocky has no papers. Doesn't bother me, though my friends know I'm normally a fiend for pedigree information.

 

But Rocky's dam is a fully proven working dog who pushes unborke cattle four to six hours a day. Not jsut that, but she does stuff only the best quality dog can do - she's got the sense to steady a wild-eyed calf fresh off the truck with just a look and presence and she doesn't take all day doing it. She works goats and sheep, too and on sheep shows everything a Border collie should have, and at an exceptional level. She could do ROM work easily.

 

I took Rocky to raise him, originally to give him back when he was old enough for training, but when I started thinking about keeping him, his mom's lack of papers didn't figure into the process of making up my mind for one second. The fact that he was already showing flashes of his mom's smarts on MY sheep, did. There was some question before that whether the line would take strongly to sheep work, but he settled that.

 

It's not that I don't respect the ABCA and what it means to have this information on record and available for future generations. However, I know that the ROM program is there should Rocky (or any of his littermates who are all in farming homes) turn out breeding quality also, or competitive at the very highest levels (ha ha, with me). That's what I think it's for, in other words - not to PROVE a dog, but to make a PROVEN dog available to the ABCA genepool.

 

Well, you know, that and so you can get the added cash if you go to Finals and win. That's deifnitely a factor for ME.

[Sue R]

I have two dogs entered in the Open Finals and I'm part of the volunteer army of workers.

Elizabeth - From someone whose goal is to be able to have a useful partnership with her dogs on the farm (and whose daydream is to "make it" to ProNovice), I wish you and your two dogs the best of luck and envy your chance to volunteer!