Further Questions about Recall (Beware - Long Thread!)

[Odin's Momma]

Summer is coming and I've made it my mission to work with Odin until he has an excellent recall.

 

I've read the Recall thread in the FAQ section, and I found it very informative. Already I'm aware that I made a few big mistakes with Odin, including calling him to me when I can't reinforce the command, and repeating the command as if repeating it will magically send him running to me. Yea right

 

Now, I moderate a message board myself, so I know how annoying it can be to see someone post a topic that's been discussed many times before, but if I felt that I could do it on my own, without guidance from you guys, I swear, I would not make another thread about Recall.

 

I have some posts printed out and underlined, I'm trying to learn as much as I can and I'm taking this very seriously, but what I'm looking for is some advice on my specific situation.

 

Honestly, I feel really bad asking this, because I feel like I should be paying someone for this information! But alas, all I can repay you with is lots and lots of gratitude. If that's not good enough then I guess I'll have to send y'all some money

 

Okay, so in the apartment, Odin has a pretty good recall. But sometimes, especially when he's being lazy, he'll just ignore me. I don't want to bribe him over, as was mentioned in FAQ thread, and I admit I'm guilty of saying "come see mama, common, come see mama!" or something similar.

 

So basically, 80% of the time, if I call him while we're inside, he WILL come to me. But I know I have to get him to do it that other 20% before I move on to the "next level" as Miz said in the FAQ. That's the first thing.

 

Now, behind our apartment building, there is a reasonably large park, located next to a daycare, with a large, fenced area. This is the only place Odin has had freedom to run free since we got him. Also, we can only go there after 6, when daycare is out.

 

I assume this would be the next place to move on to. When Odin is in the fenced area (which is pretty big) he will come when called about 80% of the time. Unless there's another dog in there with him, then it drops to about 20% of the time. Obviously, I have some work ahead of me there.

 

After reading the thread Miz posted, I know what I've been doing wrong, and I know some tips to get me started, like the game and the chase method. However, there's so much information, I'm not really sure where to start! Should I put him on a long lead and pull him back to me if he doesn't come? Does that method work?

 

Oh, and today my husband and I took Odin for a walk through the larger park just a block away from us, and we decided to walk along the Waterfront Trail http://www.waterfronttrail.org/trail.html

 

We went in a lesser travelled direction that lead us to a very secluded spot (It would have to be for me to even consider taking Odin off his leash). There was a large clearing surrounded by trees, and I could tell right away that people don't go there often. So I took Odin off his leash to test out his recall and I was very pleased. Each time we called him, he would come running.

 

Of course, this is with 0 distractions, but I still feel encouraged by it. It looks like an excellent place to train *with* distractions, since I can get my hubby's cousin or brother to bring their dog, or other members of the family to come along and help me out without having to worry about stangers walking by every 5 minutes.

 

So basically what I've tried to do here is give you all an idea of what my situation is. I think I have about 4 "levels" : the apartment, the fenced area, the clearing, and if he makes it past that, hopefully he'll be okay in the regular park where people come and go.

 

So if he were your dog, and this was your situation, how would YOU handle it?

 

Again, I know it's alot to ask, but I hope someone can help me. Odin is so intelligent and so sweet, and I would have had no clue how to mold him into the dog he is today if it weren't for the people here on the BCB. I truly feel like he is who he is - not because of me - but because of the great people on these boards who helped me through raising a Border Collie Puppy when I knew nothing about the breed.

 

Knowing what happens to BC puppies with ignorant or lazy owners, knowing what Odin *could* be like right now . . . and knowing that he *is* . . . I just can't help but feel so grateful and so proud.

 

When it first hit me that I had to teach my boy a great recall I was really intimidated. I was discouraged because I had screwed up already and I wasn't sure if I could fix it. But then I remembered that I have people who are here for me and Odin, and you guys have been a great inspiration and great teachers. I feel like there are just no limits to what I can teach Odin, as long as I have the BCB

 

I'm done being sappy now, I swear. Now help me. :mad: Please?

[Miztiki]

Kee, don't feel bad about asking more about the recall! Just send me some money and I'll be happy to help you further.

 

Actually, I'll have to help a bit later. Maybe a few other people will jump in before then though. Then again, you might have to send them some money too!

[Odin's Momma]

LOL! I guess I'll have to start checking between the couch cushions for change

[Odin's Momma]

Oh, I forgot something really important in my original post . . . I'm not really sure how to go about training with distractions. I know what it is, but I don't know how to do it exactly. I really want to do everything right, so I want to make sure I understand everthing 100%.

[Miztiki]

You really want to start from the very beginning with Odin and do it all over. That's really your best bet. Because he's partially trained, it won't take long to move from one level to the next. I'd definately start at the beginning though.

 

Why not keep a log of each day's training? Today (or tomorrow) you could start on the recall in the house from a short distance with no distractions. When he comes 20 out of 20 times (no cheating!), then move up to the next level.

 

Keeping a daily log would help us to specifically help you along too.

 

You said he can be "lazy" and ignore you in the house. Did you teach him his name? If not, that will help.

 

Did you start at the first level? Enthusiastically praise him for coming to you, over and over and over, until it becomes an ingrained habit. Once you think he's got it down pat, call him to you 20 times over the course of the next day or two. If he comes to you immediately, every time, then you'll be ready for the next level.

 

Remember, no luring or bribing, just rewarding with either praise (verbal or affection) or playing or treats.

 

One more thing; the lead is only a safety net and should NOT be depended on. It should only be used in the off chance that he ignores you or otherwise doesn't come when called. If you have to use it more than twice out of a hundred times then you're moving too fast.

 

Does that help as a starting point? I know it's no fun starting at the beginning, but it's really the best way to get a *solid* recall.

[Odin's Momma]

Miz, thanks for the help! I don't mind starting from the beginning at all! I'd rather take the long road than take the shortcut and suffer for it later. Too much time has been wasted as it is.

 

I love the idea of keeping a log!

 

Oh, and what do I do if I call him 20 times and say, on the 10th time he decides not to come. What do I do then?

 

Also:

 

you could start on the recall in the house from a short distance with no distractions. When he comes 20 out of 20 times (no cheating!), then move up to the next level.

What would be the next level? I'm curious

[Miztiki]

The 20 out of 20 would be the test to see if he's got it down pat. The many, many times you call him prior to the test is the practice. If he doesn't come on the 10th time of the test, then he failed the test and you need to keep practicing. If he doesn't come on the tenth time of practice, especially in the beginning phase, then you are either not giving him a good enough reason to come to you, or you are moving too fast (too much distance, too many distractions).

 

I tell people every chance I get: For every one time a dog is allowed to break a command, it will take ten additional times to make up for it.

 

If he passes in the house from a short distance with no distractions, then add some criteria (not too much), like a slight distraction, or add more distance.

 

For instance, maybe call him when he's lightly sleeping, or on his way to get a drink of water, or call him when you're in another room. At the very beginning of teaching the recall you'll want to go way out of your way to reward him excessively and make a big, big deal out of him coming to you. Shower him with praise.

 

After he's caught on to what the recall means, you can tone things down a bit. When you move up to the next level, make a big deal out of it again at first, then tone it down a little.

 

We can help you along every day as you and Odie make progress. Who knows? Maybe someone else would like to start at the same time??

[Miztiki]

In fact, both of my dogs have blown me off a bit since I broke my ankle because I couldn't enforce the command, so I'll start at the beginning with you. Wanna start tonight or tomorrow?

[Odin's Momma]

Thanks again Miz! This is going to help me alot, I'm ecxited to get started!

 

That last suggestion of yours sounds cool, too! Like a "Recall Training Challenge".

 

I did that once only with drinking water. Some friend of mine on another mb did an "8 a day challenge" where we would try to drink at least 8 glasses of water every day for a month. We posted every day to report our progress and to give support.

[Odin's Momma]

Oh! We posted at the same time! Sure, that sounds great!

[Miztiki]

Today or tomorrow? I won't be going to bed for at least a couple hours yet...

[Odin's Momma]

Today is good with me!!

[Miztiki]

Ok, let's do it! I better start now since hubs will be going to bed soon.

[Odin's Momma]

Alright, I got him to do 20 out of 20! That's with lots of praise though. He seemed to be having fun, too! On the 17th time he grabbed his Kong from the floor, I guess thinking we were playing. I called him once but he just stood there. I *almost* said "come" for a second time, but instead I just turned my back, because I wasn't sure what else to do. He came running to me though, so I hope it was okay!

 

It went quick but my husband is asleep in the bedroom and that doesn't leave me with much distance to cover! I only had about 25-30 feet to work with, total!

[Miztiki]

I'm done! For right now anyway.

 

I'll give details so that it might help you along.

 

Hubby is sitting on the couch watching tv, so that's the only distraction. I crated Fynne, then went into the other room within sight and called Boy.

 

[i don't use an excited voice, I use the boring old, "Boyden, com'ere" tone because that's the tone I will end up using most of the time. If you change the tone, or the way you say it, or anything about it, then it becomes a different command to the dog.]

 

AFTER he came to me I loved on him and praised him and made a fool out of myself. I made the OoohOooh noise and slapped my thighs and rubbed him all over and we danced around and I just made it really exciting.

 

Half a minute later I repeated the whole thing. Then I let Fynne out and *brought* Boy to the crate. I did not call Boy to me! Going to the crate is not fun and exciting.

 

Then I called Fynne to me twice the same way I called Boy.

 

I will repeat this a couple more times before the night is over (and before hubby falls asleep), and I'll do it tomorrow too. Because they are both trained, I will likely move them up to the next level some time tomorrow (from a further room, or with a distraction). Odin will probably be ready after tomorrow too. Establishing the recall as a GREAT and WONDERFUL THING is the most important part of the beginning level.

 

I will NOT call my dogs to me for any other reason because I don't want to give them the opportunity to blow me off. I'm starting from scratch just like you, so when I call them tonight and tomorrow, it will only be in the house with no distractions and lots of praise. I'll take them outside on a leash so that I won't have to call them.

 

Let me know how it goes for you Kee!

[Odin's Momma]

Okay, I'm going to have to stop calling Odin to me just to snuggle then I guess.

 

I'm going to really apply myself to this!

 

It's after 11pm here so I didn't want to make too much noise with Odin. He makes a bit of noise when he runs to me and that woudln't go over too well with the people living below us. I'm going to try it a few more time tonight though, just as I'm sitting at the computer.

[Miztiki]

If you call him to you to snuggle, and if he views snuggling as a GREAT and WONDERFUL THING, then snuggling can be his reward.

 

It's late here too. Do it again tomorrow?

 

I forgot to say - don't skip right to the test! Do a bunch of practice calls and put some time between them (a few calls here, a few calls there). Overkill can ruin the whole exercise and Odin could get fed up with you!

[Tassie]

Hey Kee

 

I actually have probably 3 different 'recall' commands - no maybe 4 - depending on exactly what I want. I do that deliberately, so that I don't 'poison' a particular cue by slackening my criteria for it.

 

I do formal obedience training, so I keep 'come' for the formal recall which ends in a sit-in-front.

 

I use 'here' 'here,here' or 'here to me' when all I really want is for the dog to move towards me (and away from distractions) - but I don't necessarily want a sit in front - just want some focus on me for the next instruction. (Works as a call off in agility too.)

 

'Lead time' is my cue for them to come in, and get put back on their leash - always has treats associated with it - one for coming, and one for lead on.

 

And if they come back to me of their own accord (i.e. no command) while we're out walking, I've labeled that 'check-in' - and treat them.

 

That said, I confess that while my guys are pretty good, Kirra will be deaf if she's in hot pursuit of a rabbit, and I've been too slow interrupting it - so that she's become totally focused on the pursuit, and Fergus will sometimes be deaf if he's totally concentrated on another dog. (Oh, and don't forget that there have been some PET scan studies that show a dog fully engaged in sniffing, actually probably cannot hear you, since too much of his brain power is dedicated to the olfactory function - in that case you have to go get in his face.

 

If they don't respond, I walk them down (Rebecca has covered that technique really well in some posts in the past - don't know if they are still archived.)

 

As far as methods go - a mixture - on long line at first - lots of call ins, treat/praise and then - importantly - release to play again. On the long line, it's recommended I think not to 'reel the dog in', but to put him back where he was when you called him, go off and then call him again. The idea being that what you want to train is him making the correct decision.

 

Obviously, never call a dog for something the dog isn't going to like - if he's really not going to like it, then go get him - again, so you don't 'poison' the cue. That's one reason why I've used 'Lead time' and paired it with really good treats and lots of praise - then it doesn't get mixzed up with the general recall word.

 

When there's more than one person, a great thing for a fenced area is to arm each person with good treats/toys, and play 'round robin restrained recalls.' One person restrains the dog, while the next one entices him with a tuggy toy or something like that until the restrained dog is pretty frantic - then calls the dog and plays tuggy/praises/treats. Then that person restrains the dog .... etc. etc.

 

If there's only one person, and the dog likes balls or toys (you can do it with food), a good thing is to call the dog from a short distance, and as the dog gets to you, throw the toy/food behind you - preferably between your legs (depending on size of dog of course!). The through the legs bit is really for the obedience ring, to shape a straight, fast recall.

[Odin's Momma]

Yep, sure thing!

 

I'm just going to have to stop calling him to snuggle when *I* want to snuggle and he wants to sleep in the bathtub!

[Odin's Momma]

Barb, thanks for the info! I'm going to have to print that one out as well

 

Now I've just realised that not only do I have to learn all of this, then train my dog . . . I also have to teach my hubby how to do all of this too!

[Miztiki]

Originally posted by Odin's Momma:

Now I've just realised that not only do I have to learn all of this, then train my dog . . . I also have to teach my hubby how to do all of this too!

If you get that one figured out, let me know!

[Tassie]

Good luck with that, Kee - one of the advantages of being single is that I only have to worry about training the dogs.

[Odin's Momma]

LOL! You guys crack me up! I think I'd need more than luck with my hubby!

 

Anyway, I've been going slow with Odin today. I've only called him to me a few times. I'm trying to use just "come" instead of "Come see mum", which I use often as well. The few times that I've called him, he's come straight to me, even when I woke him from a nap!

 

I'm still nervous because I don't really know what to do if I call him and he doesn't come? Do I drop it and wait till he's more interested? How would I know he's interested?

 

I really hope I'm not coming off as really dumb I like to be FULLY prepared, so I ask alot of questions!

[Miztiki]

Good morning! I just woke up and am on my first cup of coffee. I haven't even let the dogs out yet.

 

If you've laid down a good, solid foundation for the recall, making it a GREAT and WONDERFUL THING, not moved up too fast, and avoided overdoing it, then why wouldn't he come?

 

He will come.

 

You want it to become a conditioned response (habit) so that when you call him, he immediately comes to you without even thinking about it. That is achieved by repetition.

 

So if you lay down a good, solid foundation for the recall, there is no reason he will not come at this point. That's why you want to wait on the distractions for right now. You want him to come to you over and over and over and over until it becomes automatic.

 

Make sure you call him in the same tone and way you will always call him. Make sure you do it in a neutral fashion and save your excitement, praise, and rewards for *after* he gets to you, not while he's on his way to you. (That's why you want to keep the distance short at first.) When he gets to you, make sure you make it a GREAT and WONDERFUL THING.

 

Do these things and you really can't go wrong!

 

I'll update you throughout the day as I work on the recall with my dogs. Will you do the same?

[Tiga's_mom]

I'm going to start this today too with Tiga. I also want his recall to be better then it is, but I know I make mistakes, so I want to start over and do it right. I'm pretty sure right now he's at 100% in the house with no distractions, but outside is another story. I'll start today and keep you updated on how he's doing.