Long line and Lunge Whip Training

[Chianne]

I have heard about Bobby Dalziel's long line and lunge whip method to start dogs. Has anyone been to a Bobby Dalziel clinic and seen how this works or know of any videos of it?

 

How is the lunge whip and long line used?

 

If anyone knows how this method is implemented I would love to know both how it is done and the effectiveness.

[lookback]

I don't know how Bobby Dalziel uses a long line and a lunge whip, but I'd be interested to learn more.

 

What I do know is that anyone contemplating using a lunge whip to train a sheepdog should do so with extreme care. You can ruin a good dog if you over-use the whip. I don't recommend it for beginners because they can't always read the signs that they're doing more harm than good.

 

In particular, I'm referring to cracking the whip, of course.

[Liz P]

I've been to three of his clinics. It's a method best demonstrated. Trying to describe it would not do it justice. I do like it quite a bit though and use it myself.

[Smalahundur]

I train horses, and therefor regularly use a longe whip. Never used it with dogs, it seems a bit unpractical to me, mine has a pretty long, what do you call it "line", you know the part you can make the cracking sound with.

I wonder if it is used a similar way, with horses one uses the whip to point the horse away from the center of the circle, you keep the animal more or less confined between the longe line on the front, and the whip at the rear. Being as passive with the whip as possible, ideally only lifting it a bit is enough to encourage the horse (sometimes more encouragement is needed of course).

 

I assume the dog drags his long line (that would pull him inwards wouldn´t it?), and the whip is used to keep it from getting too near to the sheep (the center), pushing him out.

 

It would be interesting Liz if you could tell me if my assumptions are wrong, and why the whip in this method is a more useful tool than f.i. a training staff (is it actually cracked, that would be a pretty heavy use?).

[Chianne]

"I must say that Bobby Dalziel’s approach to training young dogs, which utilizes a very long line and a lunge whip, was so different from what I had been exposed to before, that it was very difficult for me to apply. But now that I have worked with him for 12 days I am beginning to see the light.

Bobby absolutely LOVES to work with strong and tough dogs. I think he sees himself excelling with this type, and he understands his method of exerting complete control over a dog early on as bearing the most fruit with the most challenging of dogs.

I believe I most benefited from his approach because it allowed me to become quieter with my dogs. In fact, his approach demanded this from me. I think I was fairly typical in thinking that I had an acceptable stop on my dogs even though I would often have to repeat the command several times, louder and louder, before I got a positive response. I thought it was acceptable for the dog to often get going on its own without my “walk” command, and that it was quite natural for me to have to keep stopping the dog and “leap frog” it down the fetch or the drive to keep the sheep from being pushed too hard. But Bobby had me go back to the drawing board and put the dogs on a long line (about 80 yards long) so that I could both control the dog and have immediate feedback. Then I could immediately take notice when the dog wasn’t complying with my commands. I learned I could expect a dog to lie down immediately the first time asked, and stay there till commanded on. I learned that the sheep acted far differently when the dog was not “leap frogging.” And that the dog moved differently—far more purposefully—and had a much more calming effect on the sheep.

At this second clinic we also had far more sheep to work with and so Bobby showed us a far greater variety of exercises. Different natured sheep, in different numbers, in all sorts of practice areas, allowed Bobby to show that there was a solution for every doggie problem. Participants remarked how much easier it was to work on one problem at a time with their dogs and to proceed much more patiently from stage to stage with a dog’s development.

Bobby believes in quiet handling. He advises putting a dog of seven months on a line and walking it behind sheep at a steady pace for the first two months of a dogs life. The dog is learning without knowing it, Bobby points out, and by the time it is nine months old it is ready to do serious training."

This is where I saw it, and a few other places which got me to wondering how this works.

[Smalahundur]

Interesting approach, and food for thought, especially as the leap frogging, and the shabby down you talk about Chianne, are not unknown problems to me and Gláma, though I would certainly not characterize her as a "strong and though" dog, quite the contrary actually.

[Liz P]

Forget about lunging a horse. It's not the same.

 

The purpose of the long line is to 1) show the dog what you want (guide it into position) and 2) to prevent the dog from doing what you don't want by showing them you can correct them anywhere on the field.

 

For example, the dog is on the long line following sheep. You are behind the dog to prevent it from flanking to their heads. You control the pace, prevent busting, etc. The dog learns how to trot nicely behind the sheep (foundation of driving as well as fetching). If you give a lie down, you can enforce it by stopping the dog. Or, you send the dog on an outrun and have the dog go around a post during the outrun so that the line is coming from behind the dog, but you are still holding it at the bottom of the field. Dog tries to blow off it's lie down at the top and you can hold it back, not letting it fetch until it obeys. (Dog thinks, "OMG! My handler can make me obey from ANYWHERE!)

 

When practicing inside flanks while driving (walking next to the dog), you can pull the line towards you so the dog takes the inside flank instead of trying to default to the outside flank.

 

The whip isn't "cracked" at the dog often. That is a correction saved for certain dogs in certain situations. Some dogs will never need it. Mostly, the whip is used as an extension of your arm, to provide body pressure. You can roll it at their hip to encourage them around or apply a bit more pressure to widen them out. Use it farther up and you can get the dog to change direction.

 

I sometimes will crack the whip from 200 to 300 yards away to remind my hot headed dog to take his lie down at the top of an outrun. Another of my dogs will only run harder and faster if I try to crack the whip at her. She takes a gentle rolling movement to affect her correctly.

 

The whip is also very useful to get the sheep moving or prevent them from sticking to you.

 

As with any training method, you have to first establish a relationship for it to work. The first days to weeks are critical. This is where the line is particularly useful (prevents the dog from getting away with being stupid, so sets the tone for all future work).

 

I would NOT attempt this training method without being shown how to do it in person. You could really mess up a dog if you tried it without understanding it.

[Sue R]

I would NOT attempt this training method without being shown how to do it in person. You could really mess up a dog if you tried it without understanding it.

 

*This* was precisely my thought when I read the OP.

 

It is one thing to be a handler with some or a lot of experience (like the Seraphines) working *in person* with the clinician. It is quite another thing to be a novice with a novice dog, read about techniques like these, and attempting to implement these tools/techniques. As has been pointed out, a lot of harm can be done using "strong" methods like these. There are other approaches that probably are much safer for a novice to try and implement on his/her own.

 

All that said, my advice to anyone starting out would be to get competent, in-person instruction from the beginning. Starting with an experienced (like a retired Open dog) or even a well-started dog is a great plus. Reading books and watching videos to get an understanding of handling a dog, working stock, reading pressure, etc., is helpful but does not (in my opinion) take the place of one-on-one and/or clinic instruction. They can give you a background understanding or they can expand your understanding by exposing you to new methods, but they don't generally take the place of working with a mentor.

 

Just opinions from someone who has made more than her share of mistakes along the way.

[Smalahundur]

Thanks Liz for your answer, very helpful.

 

By the way, I did not have the idea that there would be a lot of similarities between longing a horse and training a dog on sheep, I do have a little experience with both .

 

I was interested in why this particular tool (the whip) was chosen, and from your answer it seems there is no real advantage compared to whatever kind of training stick. I think I will leave my longe whip at the horse stables, a simple stick seems more practical to me (also, you can´t lean on a whip...)..

 

That long line is a really long line from the description of its use.

And no, definitely not something I would experiment with on my own. I can imagine all kinds of things going wrong with such a setup .

[Chianne]

I've seen the 'whoosh' noise of where using a stick has been effective. Am I correct in assuming the noise with a whip may be even louder and for that reason work better?

[lookback]

Reading books and watching videos to get an understanding of handling a dog, working stock, reading pressure, etc., is helpful but does not (in my opinion) take the place of one-on-one and/or clinic instruction.

 

I agree 100% - in fact I recommend anyone who comes to our training courses - if you possibly can, go to several different training instructors - discard anything that doesn't make sense (or that the trainer can't prove to work) and pick the best from all that you see that works well.

 

What suits one dog doesn't necessarily suit another - and the same applies to the trainee handler.

[Sue R]

I agree 100% - in fact I recommend anyone who comes to our training courses - if you possibly can, go to several different training instructors - discard anything that doesn't make sense (or that the trainer can't prove to work) and pick the best from all that you see that works well.

 

What suits one dog doesn't necessarily suit another - and the same applies to the trainee handler.

 

Absolutely! I respect and appreciate your attitude.

 

In fact, I came to realize (the hard way) that any instructor who would dismiss your going to another instructor (unless that second one was "bad" and would mislead you and your dog, and do harm to your teamwork and progress) is oftentimes not a very good instructor his/herself. An instructor who seems vehement about your not getting training (lessons, clinic, etc.) *anywhere* else probably wants you to not be exposed to other methods or approaches to training, usually because you might find a better instructor and something that works better for you and/or your dog.

 

The best trainers I have met have nothing against a handler finding instruction from a number of sources, with the caveat that you and your dog don't want to become confused by multiple methods but rather to take what works for the two of you from different sources. In fact, a couple that has helped me with my dogs have always been eager when I've gone to a clinic, and first wanted me to share with them what I learned and what I felt was productive. No ego, no worries about maybe "losing" a paying student, just interested in broadening their experience by sharing my experience.

 

If it works and is humane, gives you the result you want and need, great! If it doesn't, discard it. Period.

[Smalahundur]

Indeed, if a trainer would tell me "my way or the highway", I would immediately head for the highway....

Haha, as if I had the luxury of visiting all kinds of trainers/clinics...

[Sue R]

Indeed, if a trainer would tell me "my way or the highway", I would immediately head for the highway....

Haha, as if I had the luxury of visiting all kinds of trainers/clinics...

 

I have seen exactly this sort of attitude, and it says nothing positive about the trainer.

[Liz P]

I generally prefer the whip to the stick so that the dog doesn't learn to bend off the stick. Some dogs become overly sensitive to the stick and this can affect at hand work such as penning and shedding. You don't want the dog to move when you are using your stick or crook to try to influence the sheep. I see this happening at trials. The handler is banging the stick on the ground to try to get a pen and the dog jumps back, releasing the pressure and letting the sheep squirt out.

 

JMHO

 

Oh, and as to the length of the line, 100 feet seems way too short to me beyond the very basic foundation work. I would like to find a nice 300 foot line, or even 1000 ft like Bobby takes to clinics.

[lookback]

I would like to find a nice 300 foot line, or even 1000 ft like Bobby takes to clinics.

 

Can't see this working here - our orchard would look like macrame!

[Smalahundur]

I generally prefer the whip to the stick so that the dog doesn't learn to bend off the stick.

That is an interesting point. Not in training Gláma, she works naturally wide, so I never had to push her out so much, but for the next one it will be a tip to remember.

I might take up using a whip that is gathering dust in the barn; it is not a longe whip, but a whip used for driving horses (I only ride, someone gave it to me once), it is light, and has a long flexible shaft, but a very short fall.

I will keep this in mind when I start Max on sheep . He is my new puppy, picked him up just a few days ago, but I would guesstimate that that won´t be before after about 10 months.

He is supposed to bring some grit to the table, I actually hope (and this hope is based on the working style of his parents) he will be a stronger and tougher dog than Gláma. If (if) he takes after his dad, there will be some pushing off sheep in the future.

 

I don´t see me using a line of that length either, even tough we don´t have a lot of trees here. 1000 feet that is more than 300 meters ( I always think in metric)!

[Sue R]

1000 feet? Wow, I'd spend all my time untangling...

 

Something like that, in a master's hand, would yield much more profitable results than in mine!

[Chianne]

Where do you find a 1,000 feet line? I can't imagine working with a line that long!

[Gideon's girl]

I will keep this in mind when I start Max on sheep . He is my new puppy, picked him up just a few days ago,

OT, but where are the pictures?

[Smalahundur]

Puppy pictures will follow, I promise.

I will open a topic for him soon.

[Liz P]

Line used to make deep sea fishing nets is that long.

[workindogs]

I've been to a clinic with Bobby Dalziel…tho' it's been many years. He was very effective with the teams he worked and I highly recommend attending one of his clinics if you have the opportunity. You will not regret learning from a master like Bobby.

 

Really, I do not think that this is a method that should be instructed over the internet. It is particular to certain circumstances and specific training goals for specific dogs. I think it would be dangerous to try to describe what he is trying to accomplish and how he does it on the BC Boards.

 

Please attend a Bobby clinic for yourself and see what he recommends for you and your particular dog.

[Gloria Atwater]

I would second the advice to NOT try this, ever, unless you've been trained by Bobby himself. It's far, far too easy to abuse, even if accidentally, the power of a long line and lunge whip together.

Just my tuppence, of course.

~ Gloria

 

 

 

I have heard about Bobby Dalziel's long line and lunge whip method to start dogs. Has anyone been to a Bobby Dalziel clinic and seen how this works or know of any videos of it?

 

How is the lunge whip and long line used?

 

If anyone knows how this method is implemented I would love to know both how it is done and the effectiveness.

[juliepoudrier]

It's been years since I went to a clinic with Bobby D. Twist was maybe a year or 18 months old at the time. I honestly don't remember a line that long, but perhaps he's changed his method over time.

 

I will say this, though. When I was a novice, as I was when I attended his clinic, I was incapable of replicating Bobby's work with the long line. As a much more experienced open handler, I can effectively use some of the techniques I learned way back then, but at least for me, it took a few years before I was able to really understand how Bobby was doing what he did and be able to apply it myself.

 

So I would second attending clinics with him if you're interested in using his techniques. He can show you what works best for your dog and get you started right.

 

Smalahundur,

I generally don't train with a "weapon" unless a youngster particularly needs it for a specific reason, but I do have a stock whip, which is similar to a buggy whip, and I will use that if I think it's needed. Personally I would find a lunge whip a bit of overkill.

 

J.