Working with deep set behaviors

[kristinavb]

I was able to find Seamus' original owners. She told me a lot of things about him i would have never known. For one, he's 4. Not 2. Just turned 4 actually. He was also registered with ABC and was born on a cattle ranch in Jackson KY.

 

Seamus doesn't have bad habits really... they're more needy. If i had to put a word to them. He does this thing with his paw. She called it the demanding paw. Which is a good name, because it certainly fits. If i'm not petting him or allowing him on the bed or wherever i am. He's got the paw on me. And it's not just once, it's constant. I figured someone had taught him shake or high 5 and he used that as his "look what i did, can i have a cookie/lap space/bed space now?"

 

But that's not the case. She actually picked him out of the litter because he was doing that to her. She brought him home at 6 weeks and i guess the behavior just stuck. It really is just the fact it can be very annoying/needy and it hurts honestly. Especially if it's by my face. I've told him no and removed it. But he continues. And ideas?

 

Also, another part of his neediness is he wants to be with me. Wherever i am. Please don't mistake me for someone who doesn't like being with their animals... But going from 3 independent "i don't really care where you're going" Huskies to Seamus who i can't try to walk out of a door without him shoving himself into it... it's a bit different. We have gates all around the house, which are only up sometimes. Like at dinner. So the other dogs are just laying there waiting and Seamus is having a fit with jumping up at the gate and doing this horrible scream/bark. He gets plenty of exercise and attention, i don't think that's the problem. But whoever owned him before i'm pretty sure really babied him.

 

I've only had him for a week and a half... so i know we're still transitioning. But is this the way he is? Or can i show him to calm down and that he doesn't need my attention 24/7... or does he?

[Maralynn]

My dogs hang out with me everywhere. I go upstairs, they go upstairs, I go downstairs, they go downstairs. I go in the bathroom and half the time they're laying outside the door waiting for me. BCs tend to be velcro dogs.

 

Actually a lack of attention can cause a dog to be very needy. Kenzi is still a kind of needy "want to be on your lap" dog want attention please, please, please dog. But it has improved a lot since I got her. She never had her own person or regular attention before she went into rescue. As she got more into a routine and secure in her place here she was a lot more content to hang out near me instead of on me

 

For the paw, catch him being good and reward it heavily, when he paws, just ignore him. He should get the picture pretty quick.

[Root Beer]

I'm not one to take a hard line approach to things like this. If I have a dog that needs to be near me, I tend to let the dog be near me. My Border Collies do tend to stay close to me in the house and the mutts tend to be more independent. For the most part, they can be where they want to be.

 

Perhaps at your mealtime, you could provide Seamus with a structure that he can understand and be comfortable with that still allows you the space that you want while you eat? Perhaps you could crate him near your chair in the dining room, for instance. That way he is nearby, but he is still starting to get the idea that there are times when he will not be involved with what you are doing. Gradually, you could move the crate farther and farther away until he gets to a point where he can be outside the gate with the other dogs and understand that he should settle down with them and wait. Or maybe he would be crated in that area.

 

Same with other times when you don't necessarily on top of you - you could crate him near you, but with a little space for yourself?

 

One thing you could try with the paw is to build a new default behavior. It would take some work for a while, but you could ask him to lie down every time he paws at you, then reward that and - when possible - give him what he's asking for after he lies down. What he will start to figure out is that the down is what is "working" now, not the paw.

 

You can also use allowing the things that he wants as a reward for doing the things that you ask. So, before going through a door that you are going through, he could sit and then you can release him to go through with you as the reward. Or, if he wants to be on the bed with you, you can ask for a sit or down on the floor, then release him onto the bed, etc.

 

Just some ideas to ponder.

[Lewis Moon]

My dogs hang out with me everywhere. I go upstairs, they go upstairs, I go downstairs, they go downstairs. I go in the bathroom and half the time they're laying outside the door waiting for me. BCs tend to be velcro dogs.

 

Actually a lack of attention can cause a dog to be very needy. Kenzi is still a kind of needy "want to be on your lap" dog want attention please, please, please dog. But it has improved a lot since I got her. She never had her own person or regular attention before she went into rescue. As she got more into a routine and secure in her place here she was a lot more content to hang out near me instead of on me

 

For the paw, catch him being good and reward it heavily, when he paws, just ignore him. He should get the picture pretty quick.

Cerb is like that too. Not hugely obtrusive or demanding, but he likes to be with his pack members. He'll also pull my hand back down to his chest with his paw if I stop scratching him. Once again, nothing really insistant...just "I'd rather you scratched me".

In contrast, a collegue has a Pharoe hound mix that he takes into the field when we sample. If John gets out of the truck to get something at a convenience store, the dog will concentrate on the front door of the store as if his eyes were laser beams. No amount of petting, food, soft talk etc. can disuade him from his concentration. I suspect the only thing that could break it would be the application of a 2X4 (I'm kidding).

THAT'S needy.

[Northof49]

The one thing you have to consider is thast you have only had him a very short time, and he is probably needy right now because of his change of circumstances. Kristine suggested the crate, which is a good idea, and you can also teach him to lie on a mat, even it is is only a foot away, and as he gets good at that start moving the mat further away from you. Teaching "go to your mat" as something fun and rewarding with yummy treats will make going away from you a good thing for him as well. Cori and Ivy will charge 100 feet as fast as they can to jump on the mat and be rewarded for that - they want to get to that mat as fast as they can. THen they have to stay there until released. With my mat command, I don't require a lie down -they can lie down, stand, sit, move about - just as long as they don't get off of it before I allow them to.

[Izzysdad]

These are velcro dogs and the reason why most of us love them so much! I would crate him a bit. 1.5 weeks isn't much time at all of course and since he's in a new environment he's still adjusting but sees you as someone he can trust.

 

Toby will paw me at times and he gets my face once in a while, and whe he does, I make sure he knows it hurts, hes cut way back on that.

 

Zoey is like extra strong velco right now as she is bonding to me, but isn't 100% comfortable yet. She likes to know where I am but won't always follow me around.

 

Overtime he should relax a bit

 

Tim

[ejano]

It's wonderful that you've found out some of your new pal's history!

 

I don't mind the hanging around...I figure it's a Border Collie thing and part of what makes them special...I think the old saw is, "if you've got a BC, you've got two shadows" and its certainly true at this house... they all lie down around the table and wait for nibbles. Yes, we feed goodies from the table. But they don't pester us for them. Even Brodie AKA "the paw" knows better at the table. They just lie down and wait until we're through eating as they know they don't get anything until we're done. If we have guests, the dogs understand....tablecloth equals no table food. For big time company meals, they're put away in their crates.

 

The paw thing, however does drive me wild, especially when the dogs have been digging out all that fresh dirt DH just used to fill in all the foxholes the dogs dug in the lawn and I've walked out on the porch wearing light colored pants and Brodie comes roaring up to me (this might be classified as jumping but it does involve paws) He is the special paw villian, just won't leave you alone. His mother is a paw freak too...the two of them are always, persistently at it. Robin is more of a nose pest.

 

What's worse about Brodie is that he has what I call "hound dawg" claws -- really long deep curved nails with long nail beds so that you can't trim them back short. Even when he's trimmed as close as I can get him, he can still scratch you. This dog is made for work. He can dig right in and scramble up a tree if he has a mind to.

 

My snotty ex-AKC trainer said "That's why I don't teach my dogs to shake hands" but on the other hand, Brodie was doing it before he learned how to shake hands and actually does it less now he learned how to offer a paw on request. I personally hold with the theory that once you gain control over a behavior they offer it only when asked, but what do I know? According to that snotty lady, nothing..... But, I persist in reminding him "Paws on floor" or "attention" -- I forget the code word I've chosen, which is why we haven't been wildly successful at the moment...but we'll get there . A simple lie down works too...anything that doesn't reward him with attention for pawing at you.

[kristinavb]

No i don't MIND him wanting to be by me at all! (It's quite refreshing actually) it's just the crazy attitude he's got of "OH MY GOD WHERE IS SHE GOING I NEED TO GET THERE RIGHT NOW!" He will literally throw himself into the door i'm trying to open. It's a little much haha...

 

Our kitchen isn't huge, so putting a crate in there might be a bit much. I'll try the mat technique though. All of my Huskies are trained to go to the mat when the door bell rings. So whoever it is... isn't assaulted I never thought to use the mat for anything else, thanks

 

I know he's still adjusting, but he's making leaps and bounds. When i got in touch with his original owner she gave me some warning that he hated baths with every ounce of his being and would probably never EVER get into a pool unless he was dragged in by his legs. Well. He's had 2 baths and learned to swim just this past saturday. And just today, he jumped in to retrieve a squeaky ball

 

Right now were working with "wait" when i'm opening the doors to the house and the truck.

[rushdoggie]

I like Root Beers idea of transitioning "needy paw" to a secondary behavior and rewarding that (ie the down). You can just ignore it but if its been going on for 4 years it would take AGES to extinguish, this would help and eventually he might start offering the down, first.

 

 

Also, he might be less needy given time. I have had a few second hand dogs who once they felt comfortable and established became less needy. Its usually a gradual change, so you may not notice all at once.

 

He might not, however...my little heart dog Harley the Papillon still acts that way...my husband refers to him as "your little entourage."

[geonni banner]

My Sugarfoot is a bit on the clingy side. I've had her for a little over a year now. She Is fine when I leave the house, but always wants to be close when I'm home. She paws, but I taught her to paw gently by saying "OW!" and turning away. Now she just places her paw on me gently, and never on my face.

 

She had nothing as a pup. The so-called rescue that I got her from spent little time with her. She was outside in a concrete pen for nearly six months. Once she got to my place she stuck to me like glue, and I used to just sit with her, holding her and telling her not to worry. She likes to be hugged, and we have two "conversations" every day now. It's really heartbreaking the way she listens - like a child - looking in my eyes and leaning into me. It seems to have worked. She's more relaxed and becoming more interested in other things than just me. She's made a half-dozen other human friends, and no longer has that haunted look.

 

This may seem hippie-trippy and new-agey... but project confidence to him. Tell him how strong and brave he is. If you believe it, he will too. Just tell him - every day - over and over.

 

OK, now I'm gonna go off and macrame' plant-hangers or something. Faaaaaaaar out!

[urge to herd]

You've gotten some great suggestions. The more consistent your routine is, and the more consistent your handling of things you don't want him to do, the sooner he'll relax, because he knows what to expect.

 

A warning about a paw to the face - I've had several scratches on my cornea, two of them from dogs pawing at me in play. Very, very painful. That would be something I would really work on getting rid of.

 

Ruth

[Jedismom]

I've only had him for a week and a half... so i know we're still transitioning. But is this the way he is? Or can i show him to calm down and that he doesn't need my attention 24/7... or does he?

 

Hi Kristina,

 

You've already gotten alot of good advice on this. The only thing I would add is, don't get all caught up in thinking that because you have a border collie they are going to be a certain way. If you have well- behaved huskies, you can teach Seamus to be well- behaved also. I had a foster named Jake who was very needy, and wanted to climb all over me all the time. Drove me nuts. In his case, I believe it was anxiety in his new situation, and he wanted to be with the person who made him feel safe. I basically would get up and walk away if he tried to maul me, and would only give attention if he offered me a sit. When you tell him no and push him away that is also attention, even though it's negative. After a few weeks of this he settled down, and was the first one to greet me every morning with the fastest, nicest sit you ever saw.

[kristinavb]

Hi Kristina,

 

You've already gotten alot of good advice on this. The only thing I would add is, don't get all caught up in thinking that because you have a border collie they are going to be a certain way. If you have well- behaved huskies, you can teach Seamus to be well- behaved also.

 

Thanks, i think it's just "new mom" jitters. It's not that i want Seamus to be the perfect dog, i just want him happy and not anxious. Which he is doing so much better with. It's got to be quite a world shaker to go from a beautiful home in Kentucky where he was born and raised with lots of room to run and play, to a small apartment in the keys, to a small crowded "foster" house, to where he is now. In just a little over a month. Poor guy

[Root Beer]

It's got to be quite a world shaker to go from a beautiful home in Kentucky where he was born and raised with lots of room to run and play, to a small apartment in the keys, to a small crowded "foster" house, to where he is now. In just a little over a month. Poor guy

 

It is quite amazing how resilient our rescue dogs are. When you think about it, they never get a good explanation as to why their home and all of the people that they know are suddenly gone. They end up with strange people in strange places (strange in the sense of unknown) once, sometimes twice, sometimes more. And yet, they come to love us and trust us and become truly ours even though somewhere in their minds, they know that home once disappeared suddenly. I know that might sound like attributing human qualities to the dog, but we all know how long our dogs memories can be and that they often perceive more than we give them credit for.

 

When I think about it, I am beyond impressed with the depth of the trust that they develop with us over time.

 

Off topic musing, I know, but it relates to what you said, anyway!

[kristinavb]

When I think about it, I am beyond impressed with the depth of the trust that they develop with us over time.

 

Mmhm. I'm amazed how much he (and each of my other rescues) trusted me so quickly, each day i can see the trust growing. He's an amazing little (big ) guy. They all are.