Terrible fear of children

[Jenn'sfirstBC]

Hello border collie enthusiasts!

 

I've got a bit of a problem, my 7 month old border collie puppy is extremely afraid of children. And to make matters worse, I live near two schools that need to be passed to get anywhere. He has never had a bad experience with children and when he was about 3 months old he would play with them in the park. Then, one day he just went beserk when he saw a kid and ever since has never been comfortable with them. This is a border collie who NEVER barks; he has only done so on occasions during training when he gets frustrated or really excited. And even then it is only one, loud woof.

 

So, I suppose first I should describe his reaction to kids. If the child is about age 0 to 16, he first becomes very still and his body gets all tight as he keeps his eye fixed on him/her. Even if they are across the street where they are no threat, or on the other side of the park, he will still react the same. Then all of a sudden he rushes them and starts barking and snarling. He won't get nearer than a metre and then he begins to circle the child while barking. The peculiar thing is that while he does this his tail is wagging.

 

I have been hanging around the schools when they let out for the day to get him used to their noise and unpredictable play. When I encourage him to get close by carrying him in my arms toward an interested kid, or asking the kid to come closer while I hold him in place, he does not bark but flattens his ears back, tucks his tail and cowers. He often shakes with fear and even if I talk to the kid and make myself calm, this does not make him feel better. I never fear that he will bite a child because this is not his intention, he is just very very afraid.

 

When he meets adult strangers, the reaction is the exact opposite. He is so happy to meet them his whole back end wags and he goes up to them with no fear and plops down in a sit to be petted and loved. I can not fathom why he fears only little people and can't even begin to understand how he can tell children and adults apart. Even if a kid is tall and mature and acts like a 20 year old, he can still tell that they are only 16.

 

I would love to know what he is thinking and perhaps why he does this. Also if anyone has tips on how to familiarize and get comfortable with children please share.

[waffles]

Hello border collie enthusiasts!

When I encourage him to get close by carrying him in my arms toward an interested kid, or asking the kid to come closer while I hold him in place, he does not bark but flattens his ears back, tucks his tail and cowers. He often shakes with fear and even if I talk to the kid and make myself calm, this does not make him feel better. I never fear that he will bite a child because this is not his intention, he is just very very afraid.

 

Please, please stop doing that! Do not hold your dog and force him to interact with kids. Do not let or make strange kids approach your dog. Your dog will bite if he gets scared enough.

 

Others will give you great advice but I can't tell you enough to please stop forcing your dog to get into a situation in which he is scared. This is when dogs bite and the dog gets blamed and the humans are left wondering what happened (I am sure they all too thought 'my dog wouldn't bite' but fear is different than aggression and if you trap your dog in a situation that he can't leave from, he will bite). Dog bites with kids are very common and almost always the fault falls on the adults in the situation for allowing it to happen and not preventing it by learning your dogs body language. Even if your dog never nips, you are only increasing his fear by not letting him control the scary situation. If my dog was cowering, shaking and tucking his tail in while a kid approached I would get my dog away immediately! It is not fair to make my dog stay in that situation.

 

My dog is afraid of kids under 7 (basically if they are old enough to understand social manners he is good with them). If they are older, he is fine. I am the human and I will protect him. I control the situation and it is my job to take care of scary things. Your dog needs to learn to trust that you will protect him and not force him to interact with kids. He will not gain confidence otherwise. You will want to work with your dog at a distance from kids and make sure kids know not to approach your dog. You want your dog to work his way up to approaching what scares him. Many people here will give you more detailed advice but I felt compelled to speak out about forcing a scared dog that is shaking and tucking his tail in to interact with something that scares him.

[gcv-border]

Yes, definitely agree with waffles. ^^^^ Do NOT force your dog to get close - either by walking him close or by carrying him.

 

My dog was afraid of young kids when he was younger. He would not approach them, but would try to get away from them. I did not force him to confront his fears. If he would stay still in the presence of a child, he would get treats. If I saw a child before he did, I would try to treat him before his stress reaction would kick in, but I did not try to get him closer. In the beginning, I let him go away to a distance where he did not feel threatened and treated for calmness. As the years have gone by, we worked closer and closer.

 

I think you need to find a distance from the children where your dog is under threshold so you can work on focus exercises and treat him. You may need to be 40 feet or 100 feet away at first. Maybe the length of a football field. Who knows? Your dog does. Can he watch them through a window without freaking out? Maybe that is a starting point.

 

I am also looking forward to answers from others who have faced a similarly strong reaction as your dog shows.

 

Jovi

[Howling Farmer]

You might check out Grisha Stewart's Behavioral Adjustment Training (BAT training). I just finished watching DVDs of her "Batting 1000" seminar, which had several clips of her working with her dog, who was also afraid of children. If you google her name and "BAT" you should be able to find her website.

 

Leslie

[stockdogranch]

I had one like that. He loved kids when he was little, and he went everywhere and was very well socialized. Suddenly, somewhere between 6 months and a year old (with absolutely no apparent traumatic event), he just got really afraid of anyone/everyone under the age of about 18. He would bark, but run to get away from the kid. He was even like that with many adults. If it was the teenager from across the street who would come and feed the dogs when I needed to be gone, he would run to the farthest back part of the house. Anyway, he never did get over it--I just learned to live with it. He did get to where he would kind of tolerate the kid who would feed him, but that was about as good as it ever got. I didn't force the issue--I figured it was just who he was.

A

[Liz P]

I've got a bit of a problem, my 7 month old border collie puppy is extremely afraid of children.

 

That is a common age for a fear period as well as a common fear in dogs. Children are strange and unpredictable if a dog does not grow up with them.

 

If the child is about age 0 to 16, he first becomes very still and his body gets all tight as he keeps his eye fixed on him/her. Even if they are across the street where they are no threat, or on the other side of the park, he will still react the same. Then all of a sudden he rushes them and starts barking and snarling. He won't get nearer than a metre and then he begins to circle the child while barking.

 

He is afraid of them and is taking the offensive approach. If he rushes kids he should not be off leash outside of a fenced yard. You don't want him to bite a kid and have to be put down or find yourself in court.

 

The peculiar thing is that while he does this his tail is wagging.

 

A wagging tail often indications anxiety, indecision or built up tension and NOT friendliness.

 

I have been hanging around the schools when they let out for the day to get him used to their noise and unpredictable play. When I encourage him to get close by carrying him in my arms toward an interested kid, or asking the kid to come closer while I hold him in place, he does not bark but flattens his ears back, tucks his tail and cowers. He often shakes with fear and even if I talk to the kid and make myself calm, this does not make him feel better. I never fear that he will bite a child because this is not his intention, he is just very very afraid.

 

Never, ever, ever do that again. All you are doing is teaching your dog to not trust you because you are forcing him into situations that scare him to death. If you keep doing that he WILL bite some day. Why? Because he feels you are not defending him from his fears, so he will have to defend himself. (All dogs bite when pushed hard enough. Remember that.)

 

The most important part of your relationship with your dog is TRUST. If you can earn his complete and total trust, he will never feel the need to defend himself (bark, lunge or bite) because he will have confidence that you have his back and won't let anything bad happen.

 

I can not fathom why he fears only little people and can't even begin to understand how he can tell children and adults apart. Even if a kid is tall and mature and acts like a 20 year old, he can still tell that they are only 16.

 

Kids act, move, look, smell and sound different than adults. They are unpredictable, don't always follow social rules and can be a different species in the eyes of some dogs.

 

I would love to know what he is thinking and perhaps why he does this. Also if anyone has tips on how to familiarize and get comfortable with children please share.

 

Start by reading this article.

 

Never force your dog to approach something he is afraid of.

 

Stay far enough away so that he never gets past his threshold (the point at which he panics). When a dog is panicked, it is not thinking clearly and is incapable of learning. If he starts to get tense at 100 feet away from a child but will still obey commands and accept treats, but at 95 feet he stops wanting to eat yummy food, stay at least 100 feet away at all times. Your goal is to slowly get him closer and closer, but NOT for the child to pet him. (Did you read the article?) Play the look at that game (read about it in the book Control Unleashed.)

 

Never let a child pet him unless HE initiates contact. In other words, if he leans against a kids leg and nudges his/her hand, the child may pet him gently under the chin. He must choose to make contact first.

 

Defend him and don't let him down! If a child refuses to listen to you and insists on petting him, physically block the child and prevent contact. Forget trying to please strangers by letting them pet your dog. Often you can defuse the situation by asking if the child wants to see some tricks. Have your dog perform them and let that child TOSS the treats to your dog (not hand them to the dog but toss them from a "safe" distance). It may take a long time to get your dog close enough to kids to even get to this point.

 

www.dogstardaily.com is another excellent resource.

 

Some other good books are The Other End of the Leash and The Cautious Canine. Really, any book by that author is excellent.

[Sue R]

What everyone has said! Liz P has really covered just about every point you mentioned, so read her post twice.

 

In general, when I have a fearful dog or pup, I take/keep him far enough away from what frightens him so that he can observe and (eventually, hopefully) relax. I leave him crated or otherwise confined where he can see me interact with what worries him, so that he can see that it doesn't worry me. I let him learn at his own pace and don't force him into something that he fears. I teach him to focus on me and not the object/person that he's worried about.

 

Some youngsters will get through to the other side of a fear phase much improved but some dogs will never, ever be comfortable around children. Some dogs will never, ever be trustworthy around children, due to their level of fear. You can train a dog for some things but sometimes, you simply have to manage smartly - leashing when out of your house or yard; confinement (crating) in a separate room inside the house when children might be present; and other ways to avoid issues without telegraphing to your dog that "children are a bad thing".

 

We have two dogs that absolutely love children - anyone from little babies to young adults. And one dog that is not comfortable around children, especially the toddler/pre-schooler age bracket. But we have never pushed the issue with him. Rather, we have been observant to gauge his feelings so that we could get his attention and divert him into something he could be comfortable with; put him in a position/location where he could feel secure and safe; or simply put him in his crate (his comfort zone or den) when he needed that, he has become able to be around the grandchildren without problems. But I always have my eye on him and am proactive, so that nothing unwanted happens.

 

Good luck with this!

[dsmbc]

I have 3 BCs, one that is amazing with kids, one that tolerates them and my 10 month old is terrified of them. This started at about 7 months. Kids are unpredictable, but they are also eye level and stare. Border collies especially don't like that. but in general most dogs are not fond of children. best thing you can do is keep him at a distance from kids, and try the BAT method as suggested above or click to calm, or control unleashed, all three have similar methods for helping a dog work though fear.

[mbc1963]

I agree with all the previous answers. Start far away, treat for calm, and very, very slowly move closer.

 

When I saw the post saying, "read this article," I immediately thought, "Oh, it's going to be 'He Just Wants to Say Hi.' " That article, more than any other thing I read in my dealing with a fear-reactive dog, changed our lives together. So, read it once, then read it again and again!

 

My dog was scared of children (and, well... pretty much everything) for a while. He still doesn't love them if they're numerous and loose, but will happily allow one small child to love on him, and will even walk slowly and carefully when a toddler holds his leash. It literally took years of just exposing him from a distance, and with safe parameters (kids in strollers, kids in wagons) until he saw them as "normal." But the pre-adolescents who shoot hoops outside my house? They lunge and dart and yell. No point in trying to interact with them. Hey - I'm a little scared they'll bump into me and make me fall and tear a ligament or something!

 

One more thing: meeting a specific child and normalizing that experience might be very different from normalizing "children." My dog doesn't love other dogs in general - but he has to get along with specific dogs, so I work hard on desensitizing him to those specific dogs. (And on letting those dogs learn that charging my dog is a bad idea.) I suspect that if you have a niece or nephew, you may get your dog to tolerate the presence of that specific child, with some work and very careful training of the child. But it would still involve lots of very gradual introduction. And at the end, your dog still might not love children in general. Dogs do not generalize rules (that boy is nice, so all boys must be nice) very well.

[dmadrid]

I have been hanging around the schools when they let out for the day to get him used to their noise and unpredictable play. When I encourage him to get close by carrying him in my arms toward an interested kid, or asking the kid to come closer while I hold him in place, he does not bark but flattens his ears back, tucks his tail and cowers. He often shakes with fear and even if I talk to the kid and make myself calm, this does not make him feel better. I never fear that he will bite a child because this is not his intention, he is just very very afraid.

 

I would love to know what he is thinking and perhaps why he does this. Also if anyone has tips on how to familiarize and get comfortable with children please share.

 

As others have already said, you definitely should not be forcing your dog to interact with anything that he's afraid of. That will only strengthen the fear and make it harder for you to improve the behavior later.

 

One question for you is: how good does your dog NEED to be with kids? Aside from walking by the schools, do you interact with children often (i.e., do they come over to your house, etc.)? Or do you just like them and want your dog to like them, too?

 

In either case, you'll need to learn to see kids, and their behavior, differently. Staring at a dog is not friendly, nor is rushing towards it with outstretched arms (and a weird, wobbly gait). And all those pictures you see of happy kids hugging the family dog? In at least half of them (and probably more, if you know what to look for) the dog is showing clear signs of stress. The way that kids interact with dogs is, in dog language, very rude and unsettling. Every dog has a different threshold... some simply turn their heads or walk away. But for some, including yours, the only choice is to go on the offensive and keep that weird creature AWAY!

 

As others have said, many dogs go through a fear period around 7 months, and things that were previously OK are suddenly not OK anymore. He may go back to being OK with kids once his fear period is done, he may not... but how you handle things now will have some effect on his later behavior.

 

I have two dogs that are afraid of children. One has never had a negative experience... she's naturally shy with all humans, and the small ones are even scarier. The other dog used to be OK with kids until she had a bad experience with one of my nephew's (I wasn't there to protect her, and he's a horrible child). In both cases, though, the training is the same. I never ask either of my dogs to interact with a child. Instead, if I see a child, I will keep my dog as far away as needed to maintain their comfort level and click/treat, or play, or praise, as long as the dog is not showing anxiety about the child. (I think someone else mentioned the book Control Unleashed. Get it, read it, use it. The "Look at That" game will help you more than you can imagine.) Over time, the distance that I've needed to maintain has decreased significantly. There are, of course, exceptions - wild and crazy children are unsettling over a much greater distance than a child calmly walking down the sidewalk with their parent. In those cases, I walk faster to get away, and I up the ante of my distractions.

 

In extreme cases (over the summer I had a horde of 7-10 year old boys try to mob my girls), I will pick up my dog and give a stern "NO" to the kids - my dogs have all learned that when I pick them up they are 'safe' and I won't let the scary thing, whatever it is, get them. If your dog is to big to pick up, put the dog behind you and block the child with your own body. Most kids will stop if you yell NO in a stern voice. The important thing is that your dog needs to know that you will protect them from the scary creature... right now, your dog doesn't trust you and so he's mounting his own defense... hence the barking.

 

Don't be afraid to tell kids that NO, they cannot pet your dog. There is no reason that every child should be able to pet your dog, and it does them good to learn that they can't run up like idiots to every dog (sorry, I don't care for kids that rush my dog... it annoys the heck out of me).

 

While the steps in the training will probably remain very similar, if you really need for your dog to be able to interact well with kids, I think you should probably seek out a good trainer to help you (and if you tell us your general location, we can probably make some recommendations). I'm not saying a trainer would be able to guarantee anything at all... but a good one will be able to help you more than we can over the internet.

[puppytoes]

You didn't say that you have children yourself, so that makes the management much easier. During most of the day, kids are in the classroom so you time your walks to coincide with when the school grounds are quiet. I have a border collie that does not love children (he is not as afraid of them as yours appears to be) and i have 2 kids under the age of 3. My job is to make sure that the kids never bother him and that he has a safe place to go when he does not want to be near them. Now for Orbit, he has gotten to the point where he can tolerate (maybe even enjoy) all but the jerkiest of pets. Your dog might need a good distance away to feel comfortable. The goal is to teach him that he has nothing to fear : he sees and hears kids from a distance, you give him treats and then he goes to the park. Not so bad he thinks. You repeat this over and over. You move closer to the kids if he is comfortable, further away if he is not. By allowing kids to be near him when he is afraid, only reinforces his notion that kids are super scary and he should be afraid. Your dog might be too young and becauses he rushes and circles, may not be ready for this but I find Orbit does much better around kids when he is off leash. Now he is not a fear agressive dog at all and having control of the distance helped him alot. Then a kid who sits down and maybe has a ball, becomes interesting but he can approach and retreat as he needs to. Your dog may get over this with time or he may not but presurring him will only backfire.

[geonni banner]

Don't be afraid to tell kids that NO, they cannot pet your dog. There is no reason that every child should be able to pet your dog, and it does them good to learn that they can't run up like idiots to every dog (sorry, I don't care for kids that rush my dog... it annoys the heck out of me).

Me too! Ditto adults that rush at my dog. I tell them, "She BITES." In point of fact, she hasn't ever bitten anyone. But there is no such thing as a dog who will not bite - if provoked or frightened sufficiently.

 

Not only should kids be taught not to rush, scream at, wave sticks at or touch dogs, they should be taught WHY. But I don't see it as my job to school the children of others in how not to get bitten. If I know and like the kid, I will make an effort. But it's the parents' job to civilize their kids - not mine. Unfortunately, the parents are often just as bad or worse...

[Root Beer]

My advice to you would be to limit exposure to children as much as possible (for the time being), and work out ways to reward her for calmly looking at children from a distance at which she is comfortable. You can do this from your car, if you live near a park or something where she could see children from the window. (Even if you crate your dog in the car, you can let your dog out of the crate when parked to work on this).

 

This is a technique that I learned from Emma Parson's Click to Calm, and is incorporated into the Control Unleashed program in the Look at That game.

 

I helped my oldest Border Collie, who was afraid of people and dogs, but especially children, learn to be comfortable in the presence of children by doing this. My youngest is doing the same thing right now when we encounter children at competitions. She is learning that it is a good thing to see children (who are not permitted to interact with her directly).

 

The key is to work at a distance at which your dog is comfortable, and to learn to read the dog's demeanor enough to really be able to tell when the dog's attitude toward seeing children is changing. If you go slowly you will gain these skills.

 

As others have said, it is not a bad idea to honestly assess how much your dog will really need to interact with children. If you do not have children of your own, your dog needs to be safe around children, but does not have to be their best friend.

[alligande]

My young dog who is three, this summer decided children were very scary, he had never been fond of them but he did not think they were a threat before. I do know the source of the fear - our road was being re-paved and there was a couple of big noisy trucks when we were walking home and at the same time a mother and 2 small children on bikes came by.

 

A couple of days later we went to a polo game which is really just a big tailgating event and suddenly he was backing up and barking frantically at the site of any smallish child, which at a family event was every few seconds! He spend most of the rest of the afternoon hiding in the truck.

 

As we do not have children I honestly had no idea how I was going to solve the problem. So a few weeks later we took both dogs to a backyard party with lots of children, we did not force him to interact and he could take a break from them anytime but we had the kids throwing balls for him and chasing balls for him is very rewarding. We did not let the kids pet him, but if they wanted to interact with him we gave them a ball. By the end of the afternoon children had become a source of fun not fear. He is never going to love kids and watches them very carefully but the fear has been overcome.

 

By the last polo game we went too he was seeking out potential ball throwers rather than backing up in fear!!!

[nancy]

Our previous dog, Fergie, loved meeting kids. Until one appeared with a Donald Duck hat - complete with a floppy duck bill. Then she was scared. But she still remembered that kids gave great pats and such. I taught her to sit when we met anyone - dog or human. Then I taught the people to greet her slowly - and to keep hands down where she could sniff, not up to "pat her head". Worked a treat.

 

With Dixie, I have the opposite problem. We got Dix at about 7 months. Turned into a pound by a family "moving and can't take the dogs". She must have lived with - and want to live with - kids. She either jumps on or jumps away from adults. But she is totally calm with elementary-school kids. Lets them pat and hug and anything. Heck, she even ignores squirrels if there are kids around!

 

Breaks my heart.

[Jenn'sfirstBC]

Thank-you all for the great adivce! I read the article and WOW is my perspective ever changed. I will not ever again force him to interact with kids when he is so obviously afraid. I will instead try the 100 yard method and give him treats whenever he calmly looks at a kid.

 

For the question as to why I want him to interact with children it is not just because I live near schools. I am 18 years old and I am hoping that when I marry and have kids of my own I will not have to choose between the dog and my children. I know I am thinking in the far future but I figured this problem needs to be corrected now while he is young. And I would very much like to have my border collie until he is old.

 

I will probably have to start futher than 100 yrd. Even when we are walking toward the schools and we are 10 blocks away, he will direct me to alternate routes with pointed looks and tugs on the leash so as to avoid walking directly in front of the schools. I can't believe how smart he is.

 

Once again, thank-you for all your tips and personal stories and I'll let you know how things work out.

[Liz P]

Fair answer. It will take a lot of work socializing him and he may never like kids. There are ways to manage kids and dogs as long as the dog isn't trying to bite. It sounds like he wants to be gentle since he hasn't nipped yet. There are no guarantees in life, but there is the potential for success if you start working with him now.

[Sue R]

Remember, too, that when you have a child, that usually doesn't mean that a child of some age pops up in your life. You bring home a tiny baby that's going to smell like a combination of you and his/her father's personal smells (I firmly believe that dogs can smell "relationships"), and that baby will grow into a child. That gives the dog a while to get used to his/her presence before the baby actually becomes an individual that is mobile. In other words, your child doesn't just spring into your life like a child that comes round the corner on a bike or skates or bouncing a ball.

 

My one dog, who isn't comfy around younger children, still is much more relaxed around *family* than around unrelated youngsters. And, over time, he's become more mellow about all youngsters - or at least around nicely-mannered ones.

 

Like Liz P says, sometimes it just comes down to management, which is what we do for our dog that is not child-friendly. We look out for him and his needs, so that the children are safe around him and he can feel relaxed and happy, too.

 

Sounds like you have a plan - very best wishes!

 

PS - We had a young dog who was very skeptical of strangers of all sorts, from the time he hit a fear period just about when I brought him home. He learned to be a friendly dog around people but it took time, care, and not pushing him, but rather letting him set his own pace with my guidance.

 

When your dog is a bit older, you might find he has a special game or toy or something (for my dogs, it's playing fetch with a Chuck-It ball). What turned my "I don't do kids" dog into being interested in children (the grandchildren) was when he realized that they could play Chuck-It. Amazing what changes some dogs go through when they find a child or a stranger can and will do something they really, really love - whether it's great treats, fun games, or enjoyable activities.

[Root Beer]

I understand your concern, and it is certainly value.

 

It seems, though, that even if you do have children of your own, that is quite a ways off. That leaves you plenty of time to take this slowly.

 

I know it might seem that if you don't "fix it" now, it would be an even bigger problem later on. That might be true if you did absolutely nothing. But if you take your time, work at a distance, gradually increase your dog's comfort level in the presence of children, then there is all the potential in the world for things to be able to work if you do have children of your own someday.

[brady's mom]

Hi Jenn, welcome to the boards!

 

This may be entirely off topic, but the book that's been mentioned on here several times, Control Unleashed, is probably one of the best tools to go out and purchase for yourself while you raise your puppy. I got my first collie when I was 20 and thought I'd be able to raise him by sheer common sense, some internet articles (I was a devout follower of Susan Garrett's blog at that point), and intuition. Wrong. While it was a good jumping off point, it wasn't until I asked questions here, opened my ears to the discussions going on, and immersed myself more into the dog world that I realized I needed to take a different approach. Go to classes with your pup if you can. Don't just stop at puppy class. Read books (Click to Calm and Control Unleashed are popular suggestions and rightly so) and apply the different techniques as they suit you (every person and every dog's different, sometimes you gotta make adjustments). These boards and the people who post here frequently are treasure troves of information, utilize that! I call them the Collie Jedi Masters. They helped immensely with raising my, now two year old, hellion.

 

I'm glad you're looking forward to a long, loving partnership with your pup. Here's to many wonderful years ahead!