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Packed Pen


Alfreda
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Yet another question from Novice-land:

I would like to understand more about the "packed pen" technique. Has anyone found this useful? This was tried one time with my young dog, and I am considering doing more of it.

 

If the purpose is to lessen the fear or "charge" of being close to sheep- then how is this different from flooding? I thought flooding would normally be contraindicated in addressing fear issues, and could even backfire.

 

Or, is it more for dogs that *want* to be close and just don't know what to do (that would be appropriate) when they are close? and/or are frustrated? In that case, maybe packed pen, takes the novelty out of it, so that being really close is no big deal?

 

Besides determining if it's a good fit for a certain dog, I'm wondering how you would decide the frequency and length of time? When we tried it, it was with 3 sheep in a stall-sized pen. Dog was walked around face-to-butts, held his by collar, for maybe 5 min.s? Not enough room to lunge, but not allowed to grip...

Thanks!

Rebecca

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Dear Ms. Alfreda,

 

"Flooding" is to "the packed pen" as "Adios" is to "Goodbye". Don't translate, become a native speaker.

 

The packed pen gives the dog confidence that he can be very close to sheep without getting hurt. The dog cannot flee and discovers they are more leery of him than he is of them. Also, a sheep's main defense weapon is the head butt and packed together she may threaten but can't get velocity and it is unlikely the dog will get hurt in a packed pen.

 

The packed pen is so full of sheep it's hard for a human to wriggle through them. Wall to wall sheep. Sheep compress better than one imagines (although one must keep a sharp eye for the weak sheep who goes down under the others and might suffocate). I can't give you a figure of sheep per square foot and that'd depend on breed, age, wool, etc. I've seen it done with twelve cheviot culls in light fleece crammed (briefly) into an 8 foot metal triangle. So little room the handler had to stand outside and the dog MADE what room he had.

 

Stall sized pen? Fifteen/twenty adult hair sheep?

 

Rule of thumb: lots of sheep in too little space. Insert the dog and call it through. It's an infrequent exercise. It's very stressful on sheep and dog and you don't need more than a few minutes of it. In any case, the dog will get further experience in tight quarters running the sheep through chutes/loading/worming etc. Most sheepdogs learn to enjoy it. In part because they ARE allowed to grip, snap, lunge and do whatever it takes to get through.

 

Yes, there are times it's okay to take the dog's collar: to get it through, to teach it sheep will move off him, out of the corner or off the fence. But: in most cases, you can get the same results with clever body language. When you have the collar, the dog is helpless and if you must grab it, let go quickly. Do not drag the poor, confused beast around.

 

Donald McCaig

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My training mentor starts young dogs in a small pen (geez, I dunno, twelve feet by fifteen feet? certainly bigger than a stall), NOT in a round pen. There might be three dog-broke ewes in there with her and the dog, which gives everyone a tiny bit of space to move around. The sheep she chooses to use know the drill and won't challenge the dog. Yes, the dog is nervous at first, and she takes pains to boost the dog (pup's) confidence, keeping a VERY cheerful demeanor, lots of encouragement. For the first time or two she won't correct the dog for gripping. She'll encourage the dog to come up to her while she stands next to the sheep. When a dog gets to the point where it realizes the sheep are more afraid of it than it is of them, and will go both ways without gripping, and (better yet) will try to move sheep out of a corner or go around tight spots - then it's time to move them into a pasture.

 

Sometimes (with a young pup) she'll even set the pup on a sheep's back and hold it there. She says it empowers dogs.

 

This isn't a "packed pen" training approach, just an alternative to such (or to a round pen). It usually doesn't require more than three or four different days until a young dog has enough confidence to transfer the action to an area where it's possible to move a bit more while working a dog.

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Another option with a packed pen is to not work the dog at all. For this, you don't need it packed as tight as Donald describes, but you do want enough sheep that they will be in fairly close proximity to the human and the dog. Take a stool or bucket and a good book, and your dog. Tie the dog or hold its line, whichever works better. Read your book (ignore the dog) and let the dog figure out that it can settle with sheep in close proximity, that it needn't go after the sheep out of fear, and that the sheep aren't going to come after it. This is generally not an exercise done more than once, but it can go a long way toward letting a youngster learn to just plain settle down and breathe, even when sheep, and quite a few of them, are close by.

 

J.

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I do what Julie does....the dog will look at me and realize I am totally relaxed, drinking coffee and reading and then they relax. Then I move to another side of the pen and in the end we walk around the sheep. Later we do the packed pen drill but for starters do what Julie recommends as it settles, you, the dog and the sheep.

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Thanks everyone for sharing those descriptions.

 

I have the sense that that might be a good exercise for my pup...(if everyone truly stayed calm).

 

I might be able to put 8-10 sheep in an 8 X 8 pen, and fit a chair or bucket in there.... I don't know about reading material though ;-) In my case I might have to take a copy of JAWS, or better yet maybe: WHEN THINGS FALL APART.... I guess you really have to know your sheep, that they won't be climbing out, or stomping the dog.

Rebecca

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Dear Ms. Alfreda,

 

Don't confuse the two exercises. Packed pen is one thing, what Julie and others have suggested is a much roomier exercise. If you're worried about where you'll put the bucket, the sheep don't have enough room for Julie's exercise.

 

Donald McCaig

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Mr. McCaig- yes, thanks. I understand that what Julie and Diane are describing are different than the more traditional packed pen exercise you explained which sounds way more stressful and extreme. Maybe the roomier one needs another name...?

 

Julie, do you let the dog nip the sheep? Do you have sheep that will just ignore that?

thanks again- Rebecca

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Rebecca, the packed pen CAN be used to teach a dog to grip. it can be used to teach a dog to relax near the sheep. it can be used to teach a dog not to grip inappropriately. It can be used to let cows kick the heck out of a dog. IOW, it is a tool used by some trainers for various purposes. Tools are not bad, just the person handling the tool wrong..

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Rebecca, you may try starting at a comfortable distance from the sheep for what Julie is describing. I'll start on the other side of the barn and slowly move forward. For some dogs, their excitement or tension increases the closer you get (others are just really darn excited to be anywhere within view of sheep). I've also taken a blanket and napped in the sun while my dogs calmly watch sheep graze in a small paddock or have done tending. A Zen experience for all of us, not like a packed pen.

 

Oh, I've also crated dogs in a semi-packed pen for a few hours. Those were high energy dogs that needed to calm the heck down. I knew them well enough to know it wouldn't mess up eye or cause tension. Probably not recommended in many cases.

 

Like Pam said, I think the PP is an awesome tool that any dog could benefit from...changing attitudes, fixing some flank, eye, and pace problems. Has to be done correctly because it is a high pressure situation for dogs and sheep. And I like wool sheep. They have some protection from grips and also a dog can learn to squeeze in tight places that have a little "give" or "cushion".

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I actually do revisit both the PP and sit-with-sheep exercises with the older dogs as needed. For instance, when I'm watching a ewe lamb, observing sheep at the feeder, or after I've caught a sheep for treatment, I need the dog to be so relaxed that it does not upset the sheep. My highest energy dog can need a reminder to "stay still" or "watch 'em"...no, I don't need your help right this second, but be available for when I do.

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Like Pam said, I think the PP is an awesome tool that any dog could benefit from...changing attitudes, fixing some flank, eye, and pace problems. Has to be done correctly because it is a high pressure situation for dogs and sheep. And I like wool sheep. They have some protection from grips and also a dog can learn to squeeze in tight places that have a little "give" or "cushion".

This yes^^^ Thanks Pam and Emily--

If you could elaborate on what done "correctly" means I'd be grateful. I only have hair sheep to work with at the moment. I have an 8X8 free-standing pen. I have a dog that likes to chase, spook, but who is learning to be calm at closer and closer distances -at least on the long line- when the sheep aren't running. I want being close to be less of a big deal to him... so if I put him in the pen and sit on a bucket, and "read a book," I still need to know if I should correct him if he does lunge/grip, or simply restrain him with a leash and say nothing, and/or ignore him (as I think Julie and Diane described).

 

Very interesting to hear how different people use this and other techniques. Thanks so much to everyone on the forum!

Rebecca

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Isn´t it more simple and effective to just shoot the dog?

 

Yeah, someone's going to have to explain whether that was sarcasm to suggest that anyone with half a heart - or half a brain - would really deliberately set a dog up to get the heck kicked out of it in a pen full of cows. :blink:

 

~ Gloria

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Rebecca,

 

Knowing the breeding and family history of your dog, :D I would be interested in what his first experiences were like where he showed the chasing and spooking. I can tell you that his father had a huge impact on sheep (they felt his presence from a good distance away and believed he was going to move them) from the beginning, which led to me feeling he should be in a small area to gain some control, or rather to keep things from ending up in the next county. However, the pressure of the small pen, i.e. close pressure from me, the fence, etc. actually caused him to be more frantic and grippy (though his gripping was only heeling- no hanging or dragging). Holding your dog by the collar would certainly add more pressure for him and could lead to him feeling constantly corrected in that situation and unable to be "right." It took the increased familial knowledge of my mentor to change things for the dog and offer less pressure from fence panels, person, and even sheep to allow him to relax. When we went into a larger area (with fairly broke sheep and someone with a dog who could clean up a potential runaway) he relaxed at the decrease in pressure and the sheep followed suit. So did I! Some dogs require being close, others simply require more room to relax. Some require both at different times.

 

That being said, I do strongly believe in the "packed pen" exercise which includes a bucket, book and dog on a line. I have a 3/4 sister to your dog who really needed this. We spent a good deal of time (a few hours) in a pen with 5 or 6 lambs and we did not leave until she had finally fallen asleep. The pen left enough room that the dog could move freely side to side and was not quite within reaching distance of the sheep. That was it. I read my book and she fretted and the lambs moved around a bit on their side of the stall. I did not correct her verbally when she would try to make the lambs move- the length of my line kept her from physically contacting them and was all the correction she got. Once she finally relaxed enough to doze off then I woke her with petting and we stayed just a few minutes more in that relaxed state. I did not work her again that day.

 

I would hope to stress to you that not all gripping is out of desire to harm or naughtiness. It can certainly be a sign of stress. Please know that you can contact me (I hope you will) and I would love to discuss this in far further detail in relation to your dog's family and the history there.

 

My best,

Jamie

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Hi Jamie!

Thank you so much for sharing in detail how you do the "packed pen," and your familial insights! ;-). I'm looking forward to talking with you in more detail.... In the meantime, I'm glad to know that I might be on the right track as far as feeling this guy responds better when pressure is lowered, but also might benefit from "packed pen" or "sitting with sheep" experiences.

 

What I've been able to do so far, is to put about 30 dog-broke sheep into a round pen and tie the dog to a railing with several feet of line at his disposal. I have him lie down, then I go to the other side of the sheep (where he doesn't like me to be) and sit down and "read a book." It's not really "packed" since there is a good 8-10 ft between the sheep and the dog. The dog knows he can't move very far, and the sheep will NOT move closer to him. But that's all I've been able to manage so far. It's calm. Its boring. Hopefully it's not increasing his frustration.

 

I totally agree with you about gripping/chasing often being related to stress or too much pressure, vs "naughty" or "bad." However I recently had a USBCHA trainer and trialer tell me that what my dog was doing (diving and lunging at sheep) was the "worst sin" and that it even needed double corrections. The owner of the sheep where I am now working said that if I try doing "packed pen" (in a smaller 8X8 pen), and my dog lunges/grips at the sheep, I should correct him for it. I am relieved to know that other experienced trainers/trialers using this technique find that the restraint of the line is sufficient as a prevention, even in "packed" quarters.

best, Rebecca

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If the dog is too excited, or too pressure sensitive, you can use the corner in a field. It can be boring. The exact manner I would handle it depends on too many factors and cannot be told in the black and white format of email/cyberchat.

 

Re: the dog getting kicked by cows. Not my idea and from what I see of the results would not suggest it at all. Know a trainer who uses this method on their cattledogs.

And I understood the response as sarcastic, however I wonder if it wouldn't help the dog is the trainer was shot instead :D:rolleyes:

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Smalahundur,

Gloria was actually using your post as a "jumping off" point to comment on the original post from Pam. She was expressing her dismay at Pam's comments that someone might actually use a packed pen to deliberately allow a dog to be kicked repeatedly by cows.

 

Rebecca,

I have used the packed pen method with my own dogs and find it valuable for teaching/reinforcing many things, including a natural way to allow the dog to learn an appropriate grip. From a more practical standpoint, there are certainly times when I need to send my dogs into tight spots (trailers, pens) and I need them to be able to go in and move the stock calmly and confidently without making a wreck. The most recent example was when I went out to work a flock of sheep that had never been worked by a dog in preparation for a demo. The location was a public farm museum and it was a beautiful Sunday afternoon. There was a little barn in the field I was using and we decided to pen the sheep in the barn (something else they had never done). Once in, I had to send a dog in to get them back out. The sheepworking had attracted a crowd of spectators, so it was paramount that my dog do the job calmly and quietly, but the sheep were willing to challenge the dog, and in a tight space they can slam a dog pretty hard against a solid wall, so the dog also needed to be wiling to grip (usually--but not always--the sheep will read the willingness and not challenge it). Anyway, I was able to send my dog in with confidence, even with the public watching, because of early--and continued--work in tight spaces.

 

As for the "other" packed pen (sorry for the confusion; I've always used the term interchangeably for both processes), I have most often used that with dogs who have come to me for lessons/training who are clearly over the top excited and who need to just learn to relax better around sheep. For me, this latter usage has been mainly about getting the dog to a point where it keeps its head well enough around stock to actually be able to begin to learn once we actually put them on stock for training. I usually will have the owner sit on the same side as the dog, and there are enough sheep in the pen, stall, whatever, that they are close to the dog but not close enough for the dog to touch.

 

That's not to say I wouldn't use the sit and relax method for any dog, but typically it has been for those who "check their brains at the gate," so to speak.

 

I will put an youngster into a true packed pen (Donald's version), but in that case, I'm not working on excitablility so much as dealing with comfort in tight spaces and learning that it's possible to get up close and personal with stock without having to, for example, grip everything in sight, or that the dog can make space where none appears to exist in order to move and control the stock.

 

For me, either of these methods is situational and depends entirely on the dog and what I'm hoping to accomplish. I originally suggested the sit and relax method to you because after watching the videos it seemed your dog could benefit from just learning to relax a bit around the stock.

 

ETA: For a feaful dog, especially, I would start with the sit and relax method and only graduate to the packed pen after some training that allowed the dog to gain a bit of confidence. A packed pen is a useful tool, but used wrongly, it could potentially ruin a dog (to a greater or lesser degree).

 

J.

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I saw the usefulness of this exercise first hand when I went to pick up my sheep the other day. The sheep I was choosing from had been put in a sorting chute, but were right at a bend with the gate behind us. As I picked out one I wanted, we would pull it out of the group and put it through the gate into the pen beyond. I must have chose the lead ewe from that group because all of a sudden all of the sheep were heading for the tight area around the gate. It was wall to wall without so much as a millimeter extra room anywhere. The dog was sent to move the sheep back and he just stuck his nose between a ewe and the wall and physically shoved in and suddenly there was room and the sheep were flowing back where they belonged. It was beautiful.

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Okay Julia, then I completely misunderstood Gloria´s post (and apologize yet again :lol: ).

Part of the whole misunderstanding was probably that that original remark of Pam and the way she worded it ("kick the hell out of the dog") was in my opinion very clearly not meant to be taken as serious advice. Pam confirmed I was at least right about that.

 

Anyway, a very interesting topic. I have not used exactly the exercises described here, but done things that come close. I take my dogs along when feeding in the stable, which means being in the vicinity of sheep without reacting. Especially good for my youngster Max I think. Also the stuff that Vergil Holland calls "close contact work".

 

I can imagine that the packed pen exercise,and Julia´s variation (the "other" packed pen) might be useful in settling Max a bit, he is quite enthusiastic.

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Okay Julia, then I completely misunderstood Gloria´s post (and apologize yet again :lol: ).

Part of the whole misunderstanding was probably that that original remark of Pam and the way she worded it ("kick the hell out of the dog") was in my opinion very clearly not meant to be taken as serious advice. Pam confirmed I was at least right about that.

 

 

Whoops, sorry if I caused upset! I was actually playing off your graveyard humor. :P I understood your point completely. We're good!

 

~ Gloria

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