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sometimes I think the divide is impassible


rushdoggie
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So I am a stock work newbie.

 

I have had Border Collies in my life since I met my now ex husband in 1994 and he had one. Molly was a Kuykendall dog out of Imp. Celt. We did obedience and agility with our dogs and we have always eschewed conformation showing of the breed.

 

A few years ago the dog I got for agility turned out to have some issues with temperament and structure that make both obedience and agility unsuitable pursuits for him. I decided to try stock work both because I Was interested in learning more, and because I thought that for a dog with fear and stress issues it might help him be more confident in life (it has, BTW). I train with a lady who has working Australian shepherds and competes (successfully!) in USBCHA sheepdog trials as well as AHBA and ASCA trials with her Aussies. The place I go to is accessible to me in terms of geography and cost. She gives lessons to a lot of people, including people who compete in AKC trials, which I know is frowned upon. But sometimes you have to compromise and for me a place I could go in town was a stronger pull than traveling to somewhere and not getting to work as much.

 

Anyways, I like her. Shes nice and kind, and never yells at me. As a very new student I am sure I was very hard on her because my sports background set me up early with some bad habits and learning struggles. She taught me a lot of foundation work, how to read sheep and my dog, how to gently force him past his shutdown point so he could be successful, how to accept a "redirect correction" (meaning he is very soft and being "wrong" tended to make him either shut down or start slicing and charging) and try again.

 

I was talking with some friends in the area who also have Aussies, and they don;t like her training, They all think shes a wonderful person (she is) but say "well, she doesn't train for trialing." I was confused as to what they meant. And they said basically the teacher they use (who is notorious for yelling at students) teaches them the AKC/ASCA courses so they can get out there and earn titles.

 

One of these friends teaches me obedience, and shes fantastic and we spend a lot of time on foundations, and skills, and she would never encourage me to train obedience to just pass the classes. We work for confidence joy in the work, good foundations so the dog won't fall apart under stress and basically building an obedience dog from the ground up. When I pointed that out she was very "pshaw." She said my herding instructor was a great handler but that her students "don't do good at trials." She said no one who trains with her gets their titles.

 

I was a little gobsmacked to be honest.

 

She said she wanted to support her breeder (of AKC dogs) by showing how versatile they were that herding didn't matter that much to her she just wanted to be able to show her dogs "could do it all." By teaching them a course.

 

She also has a Toller and she does hunt work with her. I guess I just expected more from her. She even has a tailed Aussie.

 

I am going to enter an AHBA trial next month (at a Started level) just to show off that a solid foundation will earn "titles" if that is what you care about. Not that she (or anyone else) will notice or care, but I can do a mental "pfft." I love my herding teacher, I hate people disparaging her over a lack of understanding.

 

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As you point out, there is a divide and that is unsurmountable for many. I hope it doesn't cause you problems but I'm glad to see that your eyes are opened and you are well aware of what you are experiencing.

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IMHO, foundation will make or break a dog. When the shit hits the fan, and eventually it will when livestock is involved, you can immediately tell the difference between course trained dogs vs work trained dogs. The course trained dogs will fall apart if everything does not go as planned. The work trained dogs will often prevent those disasters from happening, or at least be able to recover and fix them.

 

It will take you longer to get out there and compete when focused on a solid foundation, but when you do your dog will do better and advance rapidly through the classes.

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I totally agree with Liz. Teaching a dog a course on usually course broke sheep does not prepare them to use their instinct and intelligence when they are 'working'. Not surprising that those interested in titles want the quick method to get there. They are also the ones that complain about the stock instead of expecting their dog and themselves to rise to the occasion. It is very mechanical type training which is becoming more common. All herding dogs are supposed to be like --- they are to be a certain distance from stock, move a certain way, stand at a pen while the person puts the sheep in...

 

When you have a good instincts in a dog you begin to see they all can work differently to get the job done. They come pre-programmed to do things a certain way. Some have wider outruns, some closer, some more style than others and more eye, some stand /like to be on their feet, some like to lie - regardless if we allow them to work using instincts and help them in areas where they are not as natural we will far ahead of those who train mechanically. If we work giving the dog freedom to think and move the sheep the way they see fit, helping and correcting when wrong we will be amazed at just how good they are. Unfortunately since herding has become a dog sport and more about peoples egos rather than good dogs working sheep well some will not allow dogs the freedom to do what they are capable of.

 

If wins and titles did not translate to money and ego I wonder where the sport would be? I bet the dogs would be better.

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I am not a fan of "mechanical" dogs. I want one who can actually make a decision and figure something out on their own as needed.

 

I think that's why stock work and SAR are so appealing to me. I want the dog to be able to use their own intelligence and instinct to do their job. I want to see the wheels turning in their head as they figure it out and take ownership of it after I lay the foundation.

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I live not too far from a few 'course' trainer. I have to say the majority of owners/dogs fail much more often than they succeed. The reason? They do not have a foundation. one trainer even goes so far to make sure he has stock that will behave very well. any sheep that challenges the dogs or runs off when there is some pressure is off to the sale barn.. Lots of people go to him and because they 'do obstacles' and courses they feel like their dogs have learned how to work stock. Most of the courses 'learned' involve pushing stock down a fenceline. when the stock do not stay on the fence the dogs (and owners) have no skills to help them fix the problems.

Another has sheep so terrified of dogs that only dogs with no interest or her own dogs can even be in the arena with the sheep. Mechanical dogs doing "Obedience on sheep" might have a chance. Keen dogs scare the sheep too much. Because most times the sheep see keen dogs, the dogs are out of control and trying to eat them!

And it is not just the AKC?ASCA or AHBA people who believe in course training. Too often peopleallow poor stock work and when it wins, that becomes the desirable way to work

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I have seen "course training" (for AKC and AHBA courses) where the sheep could do the course by themselves. In the lower levels, where the handler leads and the sheep follow with the dog following the sheep, it's not much more challenging than walking Fido around the neighborhood.

 

The other thing I've seen that accompanies this sort of "training" is that judging is lax - one judge told me she did not want to "discourage" a novice and so would give 9 1/2 points out of 10 for an obstacle that was in no way accomplished with any semblance of being right. Or that dogs got their "legs" or "titles" for work that was, well, frankly, not work at all, not acceptable, and no better than either chasing (one dog sliced and dove at the sheep so hard doing a figure-8 course that the dog slipped and rolled multiple times before regaining his feet - and got his "leg"!) or following sheep that follow the handler.

 

But, it makes the handlers feel about themselves and their dogs; they get ribbons, legs, and titles; and it keeps the trainer in business with a happy clientele that are, really, clueless about what stock work is or should be. They feel a sense of accomplishment and pride in Fido, they have fun, and they are willing to continue to pay.

 

JMO.

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To be fair as someone who is attempting a "lower level" course next month, its not quite that easy.

 

I learned how to pen, generally a long time ago. But it is harder when the heavy, determined sheep were pulling towards the draw very strongly, and why I had a hard time with a "hold" when I knew my dog could do that and had been doing it for a long time (it was because of my pressure and where I positioned my dog making them feel very flighty and insecure).

 

I just like the idea that I now know *why* the sheep were feeling like they were, and how something as simple as moving my dog 5 feet in another direction fixed the problem and why (extra pressure of being un-penned which did not occur to me at all), and how to see it in their faces. I also learned bout how my body language to help my dog flank "away" was opening up a gap etc.

 

So, when I tried the course, and did well with some glitches we went back and worked on the skills that caused me to glitch, and why instead of just practicing that obstacle. That's the kind of learning that I want. I also want to know how to be kind to the stock and pressure them enough to go where I want but not upset them. Even the heavier, "sick of school dogs" sheep. Poor things.

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Many years ago I took my bitch to a large ACK show where they were having an eye clinic to have her eyes tested. They were also holding an all breed herding instinct test.

 

While we were waiting I watched them testing the dogs. Most weren't even interested in the Indian runner ducks they were using and they were getting pretty frustrated. I saw them award instinct certificates if the dog even looked at the ducks (most wanted to get out of the enclosure) and when one beardie puppy pounced on the ducks because to him they were moving toys several people cheered.

 

So I thought, what the heck. Kate had never worked ducks and I was curious to see how she'd handle them. I went up to the sign in table and the woman turned around to look at me. She glanced down at Kate, looked back up at me and without saying a word turned her back on me and walked away. :blink:

 

Guess she was afraid Kate might show people just what a farce their test was. :rolleyes:

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I do mainly farm work with my dogs but when I visit my family they are near to where ANKC herding trials are run so I often enter. The venue is owned by one of our top 3 sheep triallers who became involved I think because he was interested in lending his wisdom to our very small band of triallers of mainly working bred collies, kelpies and Koolies. He also demonstrates his dogs running the trans Tasman 3 sheep course and he will give private lessons.

 

So this has been so helpful. The ANKC judges of which there are a sum total of 2 definitely do not give high scores where it is not warranted and they are pretty strict on the pre trial and instinct tests. They sure don't want dogs without some level of instinct and control chasing the sheep around and have no problem telling you this and will pull any dog out of a test that is treating sheep or ducks like toys. None of us bother much with ribbons as the club cant really afford them.

 

We are all interested in learning to work sheep well and having this top 3 sheep handler prepared to work with us is great.

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Many years ago I took my bitch to a large ACK show where they were having an eye clinic to have her eyes tested. They were also holding an all breed herding instinct test.

 

While we were waiting I watched them testing the dogs. Most weren't even interested in the Indian runner ducks they were using and they were getting pretty frustrated. I saw them award instinct certificates if the dog even looked at the ducks (most wanted to get out of the enclosure) and when one beardie puppy pounced on the ducks because to him they were moving toys several people cheered.

 

So I thought, what the heck. Kate had never worked ducks and I was curious to see how she'd handle them. I went up to the sign in table and the woman turned around to look at me. She glanced down at Kate, looked back up at me and without saying a word turned her back on me and walked away. :blink:

 

Guess she was afraid Kate might show people just what a farce their test was. :rolleyes:

 

 

Well that was pretty rude of her.

 

I watched a herding instinct test once, I am not sure what venue it was. It was at a farm a few hours away where I go sometimes to practice and train with someone else (with my instructors blessing). I was confused as to the point of it, because the dogs in question were not a breed known to work stock (standard poodles) and they were definitely interested in the stock, but wouldn't most larger dogs be? And the people were so proud that their dogs were "doing it all." That would be like me being proud that my Border Collie would chase a duck and saying that he was a retriever.

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Well that was pretty rude of her.

 

I watched a herding instinct test once, I am not sure what venue it was. It was at a farm a few hours away where I go sometimes to practice and train with someone else (with my instructors blessing). I was confused as to the point of it, because the dogs in question were not a breed known to work stock (standard poodles) and they were definitely interested in the stock, but wouldn't most larger dogs be? And the people were so proud that their dogs were "doing it all." That would be like me being proud that my Border Collie would chase a duck and saying that he was a retriever.

That is unusual, where I live only dogs of recognised herding breeds are allowed to do instinct tests in ANKC that is. A poodle would definitely not be allowed.

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Rushdoggie does bring up an important aspect of many all-breed or 'other' trialing venues - spoiled sheep. I've competed quite a bit in ASCA, put a WTCh (working trial championship) on a friend's Aussie years ago, and I've taken young Border Collies to that venue for 'trial experience' in a more controlled environment. In many, many cases, the sheep's pressure to the exhaust and/or setout pens is formidable and can easily overwhelm a less talented or less experienced dog-handler team. Learning to work against that sort of pressure is, IMO, a very valuable skill that Rushdoggie and her Border Collie can take to the bank as they advance in open field trialing.

 

I also know personally Rushdoggie's trainer, and she's terrific.

 

Amy

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I watched a herding instinct test once...the dogs in question were not a breed known to work stock (standard poodles) and they were definitely interested in the stock...

 

There are lots of ways a dog might be interested in stock. Curiosity, prey drive, potential moving toys or wanting to play with them like they're another dog (my pointer/retriever mix was in the last category!).

 

My border collies are interested in tennis balls. It doesn't mean they'll play Serena Williams at Wimbleton.

 

Mere interest in livestock is in no way an indicator of herding ability. But as long a the kennel club types believe it is there will always be this impassable divide.

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Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Sorry for repeating a story I've told before.

 

Some years ago a Derek Scrimageour clinic had myself and two other open handlers, maybe 10 novice handlers, a couple pre-novice handlers and a handful who'd never trialed a dog.

 

The last day of the clinic, Derek explained the International Shed which is - for those who've never done it - a feature of very big national trials and the national finals. You can run dogs for years and if you don't make the final cut you won't need to know how to get an International Shed.

 

That said: It is very handy on the farm when too frequently two flocks mingle and you need to unmingle them.

 

Still, I was surprised. Most students had never taught a dog to drive, let alone . . . .

 

When I asked Derek he said, "You don't train for where you are. You train for where you want to get to."

 

Donald McCaig

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My comments are simply based on my limited experience and what occurs elsewhere may vary.

 

Yes, I understand, and to be fair, they are fairly easy, just not *that* easy!

 

I was kind of shocked to learn this week that in AHBA there are just a few "courses" that are always the same and advertised in the premium so one could practice the exact course they will be working prior to the trial!

 

That makes them easier by far.

 

I say they are not *that* easy because I see the comments that any untrained dog can do that, and I don't think that's true. Getting sheep in the Y chute or penned close to the draw takes some skill and training. Not tons and I certainly wouldn't hold it up as proof my dog was an excellent stock dog (hes not! hes...OK. Hes impaired by his handler as well).

 

I do think when we are not careful in how we say things (and I am not directing this at Sue or anyone else specifically) we make people think we are snobbish and rude. If you train for something very hard, and are happy to qualify and then someone comes along and says well so what I can teach my toy poodle to do that it makes them think "our side" is mean and rude.

 

I had a conversation recently with a friend who has non-BC herding breeds who told me her first forays into herding with her dogs was around people with working BCs and working Aussies and they were rude and mean to her, and only the AKC people were nice and helped her. It was a wonderful back-and-forth where I was able to point out how rude some conformation people are and how one bad experience shouldn't mean that the working sheepdog people were all terrible and she agreed. But its true that sometimes its not what you say but how you say it that colors others perceptions.

 

Because I do obedience and tracking I hang out with a lot of AKC types and most are really great people who are simply so entrenched in a culture they can't see the commonsense perspective about what a breed really is and how work (whatever it is) is the only true test to maintain a healthy functional breed.

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Rushdoggie, Yes, untrained dogs CAN do the lower levels of ASCA, AHBA and AKC type courses. IF (and that is a big IF) the dog has good talent. Unfortunately not enough dogs do have good talent, hence they need to be trained.

I am not a fan of arena trials, so if I go to an ASCA trial it is either to socialize my dog, try my green dog at different stock/different locations or to support a friend hosting a trial. I have won first place a couple of times (even thought I emphasised I was running non compete and bowed out for a competator). I don't run trained dogs. I have taken in dogs with no real training-not even a stop. But these dogs had good balance-I even threw in commands as we passed the judge so they might think the dog was trained! And I've even been able to do the Y chute with these dogs-but not all the time.

As for the other programs, the lower levels are IMHO beneath a decently bred Border Collie UNLESS handled by a true novice! Arena trials can be a hamper to a well bred dog with balance and especially one with power. The only things that can be tested are the push/power of a dog and it's biddability and then only on heavy stock. When using light stock as is most often the case, arena trials favor the mechanical obedient dog with little push or little/no presence for the stock.

 

Yes, I too often find the AKC people much friendlier than many of the Border Collier trialers. A friend who happens to have nice working Aussies is intimidated by the typical negative comments about her dogs-given even before they work, and finds many closed minded even when the dogs do good stock work. And I think one reason why I've gotten along with the AKC 'herding' crowd-and there are some people truely interested in helping their breed improve in regards to working ability-is that I have NEVER run my Border Collies in AKC yet remained supportive of their efforts.

And yes there are a lot of poor quality dogs and poor quality trainers/handlers, but when the people who know best turn their backs on these people and strive to humilate them and run down their dogs then HOW are they to learn?

And yes I consider the typical arena course 'Micky Mouse' but at an advanced level it is a bit tricky, especially when attempted by dogs with less ability than a well bred well trained Border Collie

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The AHBA ranch course is never the same. Even at a facility that hosts them all the time, they change the course around for each trial. There is even some variety in the other courses as long as certain requirements are met. If people aren't changing up the courses, it must be a local thing for your area.

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I am very new to the venue, so I may be unclear about that. However when I looked at the website I saw that there were four courses that were described and mapped and the premium list listed which one of those four courses there would be. Maybe that's not ranch style? Maybe that's arena style? Maybe I need to go back and read more before I enter my dog in a particular venues trial! :D

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Rushdoggie,

 

AHBA has four types of courses.

 

The HTAD courses are arena courses, and as you read, the group putting on the trial can choose from one of four basic patterns, and they advertise which pattern they are going to be using ahead of time. Usually the dog moves 3-5 head of stock. Within limits they can also make up their own pattern, provided it meets certain requirements, but the course outline has to be advertised in advance.

 

HTD courses are "open field" courses, styled after the ISDS type course, but miniaturized to about roughly a third the size of a typical sheepdog trial. Usually the dog moves 3-5 head of stock.

 

HRD courses are ranch courses, and the course varies depending on the trial site and may vary at a give site each time there is a trial. These usually involve quite a bit of pen work, some component in a "open field" which may be more of an arena than a field. At least part of the course will involve moving at least 10 head of stock, and some part of the course will involve sorting into smaller groups, usually with a gate sort, but sometimes with a shed.

 

RLF courses are similar to the ranch courses but involve moving a minimum of 25 head of stock through most of the course, again with a sort somewhere in the course.

 

All of these courses are offered at three levels, ranging from beginner level where you can fetch through most of the course to "advanced" where a decent amount of driving is required.

 

The trial you are planning to attend in March is three days of HRD, each day at a separate location. The same group just ran an arena trial last week and they typically do at least one RLF trial per year. I don't know if you are planning on entering all three days, or just one day, but in my experience this particular 3 day/3 location set of trials is a lot of fun, and if you can do all three days, you'll get a chance to test yourself on three quite different flocks of sheep, and you will be working in everything from narrow alleys and small pens to 4-5ish acre fields. Alas, I have other commitments this year, but I hope you go, and hope you have a good time. This is a good group of people. You will definitely meet folks whose primary goal is titles, but the overall ethos of the group is good stockmanship.

 

As you obviously know, AHBA is not the venue to test for outstanding border collies, but there are some good AHBA trials in the northwest for folks like you and me who have dogs that will never compete in the open class, but have dogs that can be very good useful farm dogs whose skills we want to show off.

 

And I second whoever it was who said your instructor is terrific. She is terrific, and I happen to know for a fact that at least one of her students has gotten lots of advanced titles on multiple dogs. So pffft! to those who say that an instructor who actually teaches you stockmanship, and helps you train for real skills can't also help you compete successfully at a level appropriate for you and your dog.

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Dear Doggers,

 

Probably the worst rudeness I've seen among dog people was in the press room of the Westminster Kennel Club Dog show where several low status women were reduced to tears. Although theirs was a bullying culture, many of the AKC Officers and Directors were nice enough to me though several had certificates from the Donald Trump School of Etiquette.

 

Ordinary Dog Fanciers, whatever our political/religious differences seem as pleasant as those with bigger belt buckles. I have noticed one odd difference. Some years ago, I was at a trial where both a sheepdog trial and AKC "herding" trial were offered. All the sheepdog handlers went down to watch the AKC event, none of the AKC folk came to the sheepdog trial. From this I concluded that for a dog culture, they are remarkably incurious about dogs.

 

Donald McCaig

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