WickAndArtoo Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Hi everyone! We adopted a (estimated) 3 year old border collie last week, he is a beautiful smooth coat black and white boy. He is small at around 30 pounds and very very sweet and loving. He also happens to be a very "soft" dog... Especially in comparison to my loud bouncy goofy Australian shepherd mix !! Artoo, the BC is very smart but also fairly timid when it comes to training- I haven't pressured him at all I just gave it a try a couple times when I am training wick our Aussie and he looks interested. So far through observation he has learned the gist of things. Through marker word training (I use "yes" as my word ... As I'm not sure where my clicker is at the moment) I taught him "up here" which is just my cue for eye contact (also in a very low pressure situation... I am not expecting him to learn anything yet we are just hanging out and getting used to things I merely approved when he looked up in my eyes). I will continue to use this as my training tactic as he is too timid to even follow a treat into a sit. Mostly I am just curious if anyone has worked with a dog like this before and if you have any tips. He is a very cuddly and friendly boy over all and super smart so I just need help finding the right techniques. Thanks for any input! I won't be trying to actually do training with him for at least another week or two when he has really settled in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Kudos to you for adopting, and congratulations! Many of us here have worked with shy dogs and the key is time. Even a confident dog needs much longer than a week to settle in and become secure in his new home. The important thing is to be patient and to let things unfold at his pace. No expectations of how you think it should go and no pressure on him to do more than he's ready for. We need to see some pictures of your boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jule Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 I really don't have any special advice for you and it really does sound like you have your head around how you need to proceed with him. He sound like a sweetheart. Perhaps just be mindful not to reinforce timid or sooky behaviours by responding with affection rewards etc. Yes, I know, hard to resist LOL. Use any small glimpses of confidence in him to praise and reward that behaviour. He will start to connect that when he is feeling and behaving a certain way, good things happen. Sit down on the floor with him to start training the sit, it's a less overpowering posture. I think that the sooner you can start the easy things like sit and drop, the better, as it will give you more of those opportunities to reward an improved confidence. I wish you every success with this boy, keep us posted. I so admire people who take on rescue dogs, it sounds like he has landed in a good place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted November 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Kudos to you for adopting, and congratulations! Many of us here have worked with shy dogs and the key is time. Even a confident dog needs much longer than a week to settle in and become secure in his new home. The important thing is to be patient and to let things unfold at his pace. No expectations of how you think it should go and no pressure on him to do more than he's ready for. We need to see some pictures of your boy! I will post them as soon as I can and I will absolutely be patient. I know it can take many months for some rescues to settle in and many things may change throughout that time so I have no expectations for him other than to be loved and know he is safe with us! If you have any specific stories or advice I would love to hear them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted November 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 I really don't have any special advice for you and it really does sound like you have your head around how you need to proceed with him. He sound like a sweetheart. Perhaps just be mindful not to reinforce timid or sooky behaviours by responding with affection rewards etc. Yes, I know, hard to resist LOL. Use any small glimpses of confidence in him to praise and reward that behaviour. He will start to connect that when he is feeling and behaving a certain way, good things happen. Sit down on the floor with him to start training the sit, it's a less overpowering posture. I think that the sooner you can start the easy things like sit and drop, the better, as it will give you more of those opportunities to reward an improved confidence. I wish you every success with this boy, keep us posted. I so admire people who take on rescue dogs, it sounds like he has landed in a good place. Ah thank you! I will definitely have to watch that... He happens to be both incredibly timid and very eager for attention at the same time so it's so hard to resist. It doesn't help that he loves to be cuddled where as our other dog is more of the independent sort lol. Any tips for training a fiance who is a sucker for the new dog? Haha jk but these are really great ideas by the way thank you! Artoo has been a stray his whole life so he has never learned any commands (in fact this is the first time he has lived anywhere other than the outdoors and the shelter in a small crate) so I have found that although he is very easy to work with it's hard not being able to communicate the way I can with our other dog, which is why I really appreciate any advice. I know a lot about training and dog behavior but to be honest it would be really nice to have people to talk to that have experience similar situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 My current boy was a stray. Hard to say how long he was on his own, but long enough that he was in pretty bad shape when he was picked up. Starving, pretty shut down. But he was resilient. I let him unfold at his own pace. If Artoo's cuddling already, then he craves human contact and that will take him a long way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted November 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 My current boy was a stray. Hard to say how long he was on his own, but long enough that he was in pretty bad shape when he was picked up. Starving, pretty shut down. But he was resilient. I let him unfold at his own pace. If Artoo's cuddling already, then he craves human contact and that will take him a long way. I read your story, it was very inspiring to see and got me through our first couple of days when Artoo was too scared to be touched. How is he now? Artoo craves human touch very very much now, I think he is a very special dog. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience for us to learn from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Like I said, Bodhi was very resilient. He began working as a therapy dog just 6 months after I adopted him, and less than 8 months after he was picked up. Pretty remarkable, really. With Artoo's love of cuddling, I have high hopes that he'll gain confidence quickly, too. Fingers crossed. You were asking for stories . . . Here's an amazing success story! http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=31080&hl=kelso ETA: I'm curious. How do you know Artoo was a stray all his life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted November 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Oops sorry gentle lake I didn't see the ETA: at the bottom!! I guess there is no way to be 100% sure but here in the rural area of GA it is pretty common for there to be strays that just live in the brush their whole lives. There is a woman near our town that feeds these strays (most are border collies) out behind her house and they are not fixed (the shelter is trying to work with her to try and catch and fix the feral dogs so they stop reproducing) Artoo and his brother were finally caught after two months of trying and neither would allow anyone to touch them for another month, sadly his brother was put to sleep because one of the animal control workers didn't like that he barked at them... Artoo knows no commands and zero understanding of anything house/leash/family related so I believe it. Even if he had been in a house at some point which they are pretty sure he hadn't been it has been at least a couple years since then because they knew he was a stray being fed there. Over here there are multiple stray dog packs and many more that aren't in packs (we see at least 1-2 a day of different strays on our drive to and from work) it's just strait bushes and trees with a couple houses in between where we are. Did you eventually do formal training with Bodhi? Artoo has really been excelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Wow! What a sad situation. Hope they're able to catch these dogs and at the very least alter them to prevent their reproducing, but hopefully to find homes for as many of them as possible. I started taking Bodhi to a trainer I'd worked with quite a few years prior to my adopting him, but I quickly discovered that my training philosophy had evolved in ways that made me uncomfortable with some of her methods. And Bodhi's such a soft dog and was still lacking in confidence enough that I wasn't willing to risk setting him back by using some of the correction based training she was still using that I was pretty sure would be counterproductive for him. So I ended up training him myself, but he deserves a lot of the credit for that. He was just so easy to train once he understood the concept. Since then, I've run into some very excellent positive reinforcement trainers whom I've used with my younger, um, more challenging dog, and who I'll continue to work with when I finally find my next one. (Keep your fingers crossed that'll be sooner rather than later.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted November 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 That's wonderful you trained him yourself! What a lucky dog I have always been nervous to work with a trainer even with my hard dog, and now even more so with Artoo. We obviously aren't to that point yet anyways but I was just curious what route you ended up taking! I hope you find the dog your looking for, are you looking to rescue again? Have you ever competed or trained in any sports? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 I'm looking to rescue, preferably an older puppy or young adult. Tansy will be 4 in a couple days and Bodhi's probably around 10 (possibly a little older, but I don't think so), so I'd like to stagger the ages. I'm paying attention to the dogs coming into the rescue I volunteer with and the director of another one I sometimes do transports for (and who have a larger volume of dogs) is watching as well. After the holidays I'll probably expand my search to other rescues outside my area. And I may contact some breeders, though it's not my first choice. But if I'm going to have a therapy dog to continue after Bodhi when he retires, I need to start working with one pretty soon. I started out training for obedience competition with my first border collie many years ago. But then I wanted to know if he could do what his ancestors were bred to do and ended up raising sheep. (Btw, he could.) I'd always expected to go back to that after a divorce and what was supposed to be a temporary diversion while I got some advanced degrees, but illness and long-term disability changed all that so now I do therapy work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfreda Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Perhaps just be mindful not to reinforce timid or sooky behaviours by responding with affection rewards etc. Yes, I know, hard to resist LOL. Use any small glimpses of confidence in him to praise and reward that behaviour. Many good comments and suggestions for little Artoo. I just wanted to mention that years ago I was told not to reinforce fears, but I believe there has been some new thinking about that. Essentially calmly reassuring your dog that it's o.k., and you've "got his back," even feeding food, is actually very helpful in *reducing fear. Below are some links to Suzanne Clothier, and Patricia McConnell on the subject: http://fearfuldogs.com/myth-of-reinforcing-fear/ http://thebark.com/content/reducing-fear-your-dog Sounds like you're doing a great job. One activity I like to encourage eye contact early on, is this one: throw a treat (or a few) on the floor, wait for dog to find, eat, and then just wait. As soon as he looks at you, toss more food on floor (you can also say "Find it!"). best wishes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelingswift Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Sounds just like my girl! She was a stray, spent most of her early life in a shelter that was basically a pack of dogs running free in a large fenced space -- so she's great with dogs, fearful of people. She was 8 months when we brought her home. She had never lived in a house, didn't know how to climb stairs, was terrified of us and everything around her. She hid in her crate for the first 2 days and once she was brave enough to leave her crate we had to keep her leashed at all times in order to catch her. She never showed any aggression, just nervousness/wariness. Wouldn't take a treat (unless we tossed it away), didn't pee for the first 48 hours, the whole works. We've now had her just over 3 months and she is a completely different dog. Will come running for cuddles, learns new tricks within minutes, and is a general joy to have around. We just gave her time, time, and more time. Everything was soft and relaxed, praise and corrections alike. Any noise we made redirected her attention to us, so "good girl" was said in a soft & slow nearly cooing voice and "ah ah" was a sing-songy high-pitch voice. As she became more confident good girl became more exuberant and "ah ah" became edgier. The bare minimum to get the effect we wanted. What worked best in up-ing her confidence was walks. She LOVES the outdoors and LOVES other dogs. So we would go walking nearly every other hour. It was great for bonding. I could visibly see her gain confidence with each interaction she had with another dog, so I was asking every dog owner we came across if they could meet and then would introduce new concepts just after the interaction (petting, touching her all over, calling her to me, luring a sit - whatever stage we were at in that week/day). The 1 month mark was her "lightbulb" moment where I think she realized that life was OK and her pace of improvement became exponential. She started playing WITH us (i nearly cried with joy the first time she engaged in tug...previously she would drop whatever was in her mouth the moment we approached) and seeking out our company/affections, and now she's learning fetch and follows me room to room to lie near me. ETA: in the beginning she was fearful of other dogs too (trying to run away on the leash), I think because she was just so shell-shocked and unconfident of everything around her. I had seen her at the shelter so I knew she was great with dogs and played well. So I started with small old dogs and/or very young puppies (the first dog she was brave enough to "meet" was a 10 week old chihuahua...it was basically the size of her paw and she was still nervous as it approached her) then let her work her way up to larger more exuberant dogs. Now she's the young exuberant dog bounding up to everyone else. Just keep at it and go at his pace. Don't stress over slip-ups, I moved too quickly for her at times and she'd let me know and I'd just scale it way back again. If anything it helped gain her trust that I'm listening to her. It's been an amazing journey with my girl. But definitely not a clear path forward, it was more two steps forward, one step back and there were good days and bad days. So don't get frustrated by apparent regressions, just keep reminding yourself of where you've come from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted December 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Thank you for the articles Alfreda! I read them and they made great sense, I am a psychology student so journal articles about conditioning of any sort are right up my ally they are great to see because I love being allowed to calm my babies I have always heard it was bad to reinforce it so I always just chose the distract with a command and reward that attention haha... Even if it's a simple turn of the head to their name. with Artoo his fear was towards all humans (including us) at first... I just tossed treats for a few days and now he can't get enough of us! It's been a really radical change in the last month ...but sometimes he reverts for a second but then seems to remember we are safe again and comes running full force at us for more cuddles .... In fact we can't get him off of us! I am actually working on getting him comfortable being away from us now because he gets separation anxiety now that he has realized we are his friends. Nothing too bad but I definitely don't want him to have any issues with that later down the road! So far we are only focusing on the few commands that he just picked up on his own... He absolutely loves to do them for me and it's so fun to work with both the dogs at once because they feed off each others energy and are far more eager to please! He so far is 100% in recall, his name response, eye contact ("up here"), leave it, go to (our) bed and go in your crate. Still having issues getting him into a sit... I reward his sits that he does on his own with a click,treat, and "good sit" but it's actually quite hard to catch him in a sit at all... He is always on the go or just lays down. He is still very timid in a way that is hard to explain... He is very aware and on edge I guess is a good way to explain it. Like he is very happy and cuddly and excitable but doesn't exactly put his guard down in any situation except when we personally interact with him. It sounds strange but when we are in his face petting him and talking to him one on one is the only time he just opens up completely without worrying about his surroundings. I hope that is a good thing and means he trusts us! I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop... He is just so good! Did anyone have their rescues begin to act out after a while? How long did it take (I know it could be different for every dog... I am mostly just curious!) did anyone's timid dog every completely open up or is it a personality trait that will always be there no matter what? I honestly don't mind a bit if it is, he has stolen our hearts so much but I just was interested about it. Also he was so terrified when we got him that we waited to take him in for his first check up as he seems very healthy, now that he has warmed up to us so much should I take him in or could that unravel all our careful trust that we built? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted December 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Sounds just like my girl! She was a stray, spent most of her early life in a shelter that was basically a pack of dogs running free in a large fenced space -- so she's great with dogs, fearful of people. She was 8 months when we brought her home. She had never lived in a house, didn't know how to climb stairs, was terrified of us and everything around her. She hid in her crate for the first 2 days and once she was brave enough to leave her crate we had to keep her leashed at all times in order to catch her. She never showed any aggression, just nervousness/wariness. Wouldn't take a treat (unless we tossed it away), didn't pee for the first 48 hours, the whole works. We've now had her just over 3 months and she is a completely different dog. Will come running for cuddles, learns new tricks within minutes, and is a general joy to have around. We just gave her time, time, and more time. Everything was soft and relaxed, praise and corrections alike. Any noise we made redirected her attention to us, so "good girl" was said in a soft & slow nearly cooing voice and "ah ah" was a sing-songy high-pitch voice. As she became more confident good girl became more exuberant and "ah ah" became edgier. The bare minimum to get the effect we wanted. What worked best in up-ing her confidence was walks. She LOVES the outdoors and LOVES other dogs. So we would go walking nearly every other hour. It was great for bonding. I could visibly see her gain confidence with each interaction she had with another dog, so I was asking every dog owner we came across if they could meet and then would introduce new concepts just after the interaction (petting, touching her all over, calling her to me, luring a sit - whatever stage we were at in that week/day). The 1 month mark was her "lightbulb" moment where I think she realized that life was OK and her pace of improvement became exponential. She started playing WITH us (i nearly cried with joy the first time she engaged in tug...previously she would drop whatever was in her mouth the moment we approached) and seeking out our company/affections, and now she's learning fetch and follows me room to room to lie near me. ETA: in the beginning she was fearful of other dogs too (trying to run away on the leash), I think because she was just so shell-shocked and unconfident of everything around her. I had seen her at the shelter so I knew she was great with dogs and played well. So I started with small old dogs and/or very young puppies (the first dog she was brave enough to "meet" was a 10 week old chihuahua...it was basically the size of her paw and she was still nervous as it approached her) then let her work her way up to larger more exuberant dogs. Now she's the young exuberant dog bounding up to everyone else. Just keep at it and go at his pace. Don't stress over slip-ups, I moved too quickly for her at times and she'd let me know and I'd just scale it way back again. If anything it helped gain her trust that I'm listening to her. It's been an amazing journey with my girl. But definitely not a clear path forward, it was more two steps forward, one step back and there were good days and bad days. So don't get frustrated by apparent regressions, just keep reminding yourself of where you've come from. Yes this really reminds me of our situation! Thank you so much for sharing it is so helpful, and what an amazing story your little girl sounds so sweet and brave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted December 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Sounds just like my girl! She was a stray, spent most of her early life in a shelter that was basically a pack of dogs running free in a large fenced space -- so she's great with dogs, fearful of people. She was 8 months when we brought her home. She had never lived in a house, didn't know how to climb stairs, was terrified of us and everything around her. She hid in her crate for the first 2 days and once she was brave enough to leave her crate we had to keep her leashed at all times in order to catch her. She never showed any aggression, just nervousness/wariness. Wouldn't take a treat (unless we tossed it away), didn't pee for the first 48 hours, the whole works. We've now had her just over 3 months and she is a completely different dog. Will come running for cuddles, learns new tricks within minutes, and is a general joy to have around. We just gave her time, time, and more time. Everything was soft and relaxed, praise and corrections alike. Any noise we made redirected her attention to us, so "good girl" was said in a soft & slow nearly cooing voice and "ah ah" was a sing-songy high-pitch voice. As she became more confident good girl became more exuberant and "ah ah" became edgier. The bare minimum to get the effect we wanted. What worked best in up-ing her confidence was walks. She LOVES the outdoors and LOVES other dogs. So we would go walking nearly every other hour. It was great for bonding. I could visibly see her gain confidence with each interaction she had with another dog, so I was asking every dog owner we came across if they could meet and then would introduce new concepts just after the interaction (petting, touching her all over, calling her to me, luring a sit - whatever stage we were at in that week/day). The 1 month mark was her "lightbulb" moment where I think she realized that life was OK and her pace of improvement became exponential. She started playing WITH us (i nearly cried with joy the first time she engaged in tug...previously she would drop whatever was in her mouth the moment we approached) and seeking out our company/affections, and now she's learning fetch and follows me room to room to lie near me. ETA: in the beginning she was fearful of other dogs too (trying to run away on the leash), I think because she was just so shell-shocked and unconfident of everything around her. I had seen her at the shelter so I knew she was great with dogs and played well. So I started with small old dogs and/or very young puppies (the first dog she was brave enough to "meet" was a 10 week old chihuahua...it was basically the size of her paw and she was still nervous as it approached her) then let her work her way up to larger more exuberant dogs. Now she's the young exuberant dog bounding up to everyone else. Just keep at it and go at his pace. Don't stress over slip-ups, I moved too quickly for her at times and she'd let me know and I'd just scale it way back again. If anything it helped gain her trust that I'm listening to her. It's been an amazing journey with my girl. But definitely not a clear path forward, it was more two steps forward, one step back and there were good days and bad days. So don't get frustrated by apparent regressions, just keep reminding yourself of where you've come from. Yes this really reminds me of our situation! Thank you so much for sharing it is so helpful, and what an amazing story your little girl sounds so sweet and brave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelingswift Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 How's your little guy doing now after a few more weeks of adjustment? Any updates?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted January 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 How's your little guy doing now after a few more weeks of adjustment? Any updates?? He is doing wonderfully!! Thank you for asking. He has really adjusted so well ...he is like a different dog it's so fun. People don't believe me when I tell them how scared he was at first because he is such a happy pup who just craves human attention more than anything in the world. He is a more aware and responsive dog so tends to be a little more skittish to loud noises and big things etc than our rambunctious puppy Aussie, but not by much! I will say he is the most sweet and loving dog and he lives to please us... He reads our body language and voice tones so well that it's like he speaks English, I am so impressed with his intelligence and how well he adjusted to home life! Training was tough at first but he has finally made the connection and everything is coming so quick! This last two weeks he learned sit, stay, down and speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amc Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 That is great news! Keep the pupdates AND pics coming! So glad your work with Artoo is paying off! Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelingswift Posted January 14, 2016 Report Share Posted January 14, 2016 That's so great to hear. Sounds like both of you hit the jackpot with him joining the family Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WickAndArtoo Posted January 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2016 That's so great to hear. Sounds like both of you hit the jackpot with him joining the family Yeah we really did, we are in disbelief of our luck every day! Also I am extra excited because he is such and eager and easily motivated boy and super fast and agile, so we are excited to begin training agility as soon as we find a good trainer in our area!! This is great because we always wanted to do agility but out Aussie isn't very motivated so I wasn't sure it was going to pan out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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