Chloesmygirl Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 I have been lurking for a little while, trying to learn what I can about the Border Collie. I myself, have no experience with this breed. I am wanting to learn so I can possibly help my sister whose family have a Border Collie and we take daily walks together. She takes her son's Border Collie and I take my bull breed mix. The dog is technically her son's but much of her care is in my sister's hands. The dog has some behaviour issues that she needs some help with. The dog was acquired with the intention of being a companion dog. This little female BC has a few different issues when we are on our walks. She wants to chase the cars that drive by. She lunges, snaps, and snarls at all the livestock we pass by. Cattle, goats and horses. She does the same thing with the dogs we pass by. She also doesn't like certain people who are walking and if she doesn't like them she is barking furiously at them. She is also a resource guarder when it comes to food. She does accept my dog for the most part but she used to snap and snarl at him anytime he sniffed anything on the ground. She has gotten better with that but once in awhile she will still randomly snap and snarl at him. Luckily, my dog is supremely nice and has been able to ignore all these behaviours. She has also bitten a woman who wanted to pet her. It wasn't too bad of a bite, I was told (I wasn't there when it happened) but it did puncture the skin. On the other hand, the dog is very sweet to me and has never been aggressive towards me. Is this breed typically wary of strangers or is this very dog specific? She has also had some bad interactions with a loose dog on our walks which I am sure was very scary for her. I know that you can't tell me what's wrong with her or what's bothering her but I was hoping to learn something just by learning more about the breed. If I had to say what is wrong, my guess that she is fear aggressive and very, very, leash reactive. She will be 2 this coming January or February. They have had her since she was a puppy and we started taking walks together when she was around 10 months old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 This is one of those situations where the search function is a great resource. We have tons of threads on car chasing, leash reactivity, resource guarding, and dog-dog relationships (which for this dog should all be treated as separate issues in my opinion). The biting is more serious. Your sister is lucky the woman she bit didn't take action. You absolutely cannot let a dog have any opportunity to bite if you can help it. It can and will lead to the dog being put down, and not without good reason. I might suggest a muzzle (but I'll let others who are more experienced speak on that) and for both you and your sister to get really good at reading the dog's body language. Dogs typically give clear warning before they bite, but even if they don't you should be able to see how uncomfortable she is just by her body language. Again there is plenty of reading about that online. Obviously don't be letting strangers pet her anymore. Definitely do your best to protect her and let her know you will protect her against loose dogs. Again I'll let others with more experience get into that sort of stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 What really needs to be done in a situation as complex as this, is to get a qualified trainer to work with the owner of the dog. Someone in person needs to assess the dog and her behavior. Then, work with the owner to show them how to change the dog's behavior. Training out these behaviors will take time, knowledge and daily work/practice. Unless the actual owner of the dog is willing to do this, I just can't imagine much progress being made. Dogs of all breeds are leash reactive and can bite strangers. A good trainer should be brought it to show the owner exactly how to walk her and how to train new, appropriate behaviors. I think situations like this are too much for a novice dog handler to just read online or in this case, be told by a caring third party and then try to implement that information in real life. It's wonderfully you want to help but I think finding a reputable trainer in your area is going to be the most helpful. Even a few private lessons can be very educational and can really get to the issues at hand and show the humans what they can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 ^^This. Your sister needs to find a good, preferably positive reinforcement trainer ASAP. It may even be serious enough for her to look into consulting a veterinary behaviorist. Best wishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chloesmygirl Posted November 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 I have already suggested they consult a trainer or behaviorist but unfortunately have been met with resistance. I think her son believes he is capable of training her but he's young and sometimes the younger generation does not like to take advice from us older ones. I know of a very good behaviorist in our area whom I did recommend. I guess really there isn't much I can do if they aren't really willing to make some big changes, I was just sorta hoping I could help her out a bit on the walks if I had a better insight as to what was causing her reactiveness, which I really do believe is fear. I do keep warning her about letting people touch the dog but sometimes I am not sure she realizes the seriousness of it because sometimes the dog seems OK with some people and then not others. I know in an instant by her body language when she doesn't want people to approach, she gives many of the classic signals even when she's quiet about it. I feel bad because I really do think this dog is looking for somebody to help her with the way she is feeling, she's not happy about it, its stressful for her. I actually was the one who walked her this last Monday for the first time for my sister and she seemed quite happy to work for treats and a whole lot of praise for when she was behaving correctly. She really is a pretty little thing and can be quite sweet. I just don't have any experience with any of the herding breeds and wasn't sure if her acting out at the livestock had anything to do with being a herding dog. Thanks for the feedback and I will be using the search engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Poor dog. It sounds like you are the best friend she has, so far as helping her along in the scary ol' world. What you describe does not sound breed-specific, though. She just sounds like a sensitive little girl who is overwhelmed and scared by many things around her. It is a very complex situation and I'd also recommend some in person professional help.If nothing else, maybe you can convince your sister that if that dog ever bites seriously, they could end up with a lawsuit and depending on local laws, the dog could end up quarantined or euthanized. Maybe then she'd allow a more proactive approach ... Anyhow, I'm glad you're having some good results with the dog, but she definitely needs some professional help. Best of luck to you both ...~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisandgabe Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Is your sister still letting strangers approach the dog after it bit someone? They really do need a trainer or behaviorist, but also in the management realm, I wouldn't let anyone approach my dog I didn't know was dog-savvy and also would read the dog's signals, and only under really controlled "meeting strangers practice" situations. Gabe is not great with new people- barks, lunges, etc. Strangers on walks admire how pretty he is, and my response is always "thanks! He's nervous around new people, so please don't reach out to him". We practice a lot with people I know, so I can be really clear on the "rules" for meeting him, and he gets some experience with people not grabbing for him when that's scary. They need a pretty good behavior plan in place to work on these complex issues. Best of luck to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 I feel very sorry for this dog. It sounds as though she is not being given the training that she badly needs, and it will result in tragedy. Clearly the young man who thinks he can train the dog cannot do so, or is not doing so, and he is (sorry- no offense meant) being arrogant about it and refusing help. Maybe it would make an impression if you let them know that if they let this situation go on without getting professional help the result will most likely be that sooner or later there will be a bad incident and the dog will be the one who suffers because she will be confiscated and killed. Unfortunately, although it is very good of you to want to help, it is unlikely that you will be able to do very much in this situation besides, as others have said, doing your best to protect the dog when you are walking with her by not allowing strangers to pet her or even come near to her. There are many things that could help her to become less reactive but without support from the family with whom she lives these things probably won't be consistently used. Nevertheless, I hope you will feel welcome to stick around on this forum and read up on these issues because you never know what you might end up being able to do to help this dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 There are some dogs that don't do well in certain situations and when put into those situations act out quite severely. In this case I would tend to make the walk as stress free as possible, look ahead and if you see someone coming pick a different route, don't subject the dog to any encounters with people and other dogs, she has made it clear that she doesn't like it and will act on her emotions. This is the type of dog that I would tend to exercise in the back yard and not subject her to the public, for her own safety. Not all dogs are wired to be social butterflies and no amount of behavior modification will change their desire to be antisocial toward strangers, they just want their space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Find a trainer in your area who is well versed in dog behavior and who knows how to work with positive training for aggressive behaviours. There is a yahoo group (agbeh I think) that may still be active. There is a knowledgeable group there who can give sound advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chloesmygirl Posted November 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 Well I think I am officially going to have to wash my hands of the situation. He plans on breeding her. I asked why??? There are too many dogs in the shelters are he isn't a reputable breeder trying to improve or better the breed. He doesn't want any of the dogs in the shelters, he wants a pup from her. I can understand wanting certain characteristics with a dog but my point was I am afraid that some of her puppies could end up in a shelter. I asked what did he want in a dog? He doesn't work the dog, do any sports with the dog, the only information I could get was that he wanted a companion dog that can catch a frisbee!! OMG, I just picked up a stray abandoned mutt off the side of the road that can catch a damn frisbee! Not much of a criteria. Not only that, he plans on breeding her with a mini aussie! :angry: Thanks for all your suggestions anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 So sad. There is often no way to change the closed mind (not yours). I hope that your sister is not enabling this behavior - i.e. funding the care and feeding of the dog, taking care of the dog, and in the future, dealing with the pups. If she stopped all enabling behavior, maybe her son will wake up - but most likely he won't. So sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cass C Posted November 17, 2015 Report Share Posted November 17, 2015 There is no talking sense into some people... Those of us who take pets seriously seem like a minority some times. Although I did managed to talk my mom out of breeding her pet grade GSD pair for extra money, which wasn't easy. I used the logic of what would happen to the excess puppies, and I also pointed out that she could lose her dog and/or the puppies if things went wrong. That seemed to shock her out of it and both dogs got fixed shortly after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I agree wholeheartedly with both posts above. If the dog is only "technically" her son's but the mother does a lot of the work, she should have a fair say in what happens with the dog. If you can convince her how bad of an idea it is the breed ANY type of dog the way he's going about this, then you have a good chance of stopping it. Most people don't really think about how risky and how much work and time goes into raising pups. How old is the son, anyways? I assume he lives with his mother? Then it's a very simple matter of "no, you can't use my house for that sort of behavior". I would not even bother bringing up the importance of breeding border collies for work etc. There are plenty or equally or more worrying issues that you have a better chance of getting through to him on. Some things that come to mind: -There is absolutely no guarantee that a pup will be the same as its parent. Especially not if he's mixing aussie in there. It's way more likely he'll get exactly what he's looking for if he finds it in an adult dog, instead of gambling on a pup. What's he going to do if he does all that and none of the dogs grow up anything like his current dog? -Like Cass C said, If there are complications with the pregnancy he could lose his dog - and seeing as he has no experience in breeding he's making the risks much higher. -Potential buyers and such means lots of people in and around the house. If this dog who already has a bite history bites someone else during this stressful and high energy time, not only will no one buy the puppies, he also may lose the dog and face charges. Also: where did they get the dog? Perhaps the breeder or shelter he got the dog from could talk to him? I'm not sure if that's ever done, but I can't imagine either would be very happy to hear what's happening to their dog, especially not a shelter (unless of course it was another BYB, which I suppose is likely enough). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chloesmygirl Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Here is the situation. Her son lives on his parents property, but in his own dwelling, they live on acreage. He is an adult in his twenties. He pays for all of her food and care but my sister spends time with the dog while he is at work. I agree, she should put her foot down, but I am not 100% convinced that she is totally against it. I can tell you what I would do if it was my son's dog, I'd take her in myself and have her spayed. That's how I would fix it. Too many dogs end up in shelters, IMO. Chene, I have already stated all of those points you have brought up to my sister. I couldn't help but let her know how I really feel about his "breeding" plan, at the risk of offending her. This dog also, IMO, does not have a stable temperament and now they are going to breed her. You want to know the real big kicker in all of this? The breeder he got her from, and I have no way of knowing who it is, had him sign a spay contract so that he is NOT suppose to breed her. She did not consider the dog good breeding material apparently. If he goes ahead with this plan, it can only end badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 You want to know the real big kicker in all of this? The breeder he got her from, and I have no way of knowing who it is, had him sign a spay contract so that he is NOT suppose to breed her. She did not consider the dog good breeding material apparently. If he goes ahead with this plan, it can only end badly. That makes it easy to fix this. Just find out what breeder it was and contact them, then you can let the breeder do the work and you don't have to worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wow, brilliant. Let's breed a dog who clearly has temperament problems. Maybe she'll make a bunch more JUST LIKE HER! Then the brother can be guaranteed that he has created puppies who will likely meet untimely deaths or be treated poorly by their owners. Way to go, potential breeder. You are a shining example of what's wrong with backyard breeding in this country. Wear the badge proudly. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chloesmygirl Posted November 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Wow, brilliant. Let's breed a dog who clearly has temperament problems. Maybe she'll make a bunch more JUST LIKE HER! Then the brother can be guaranteed that he has created puppies who will likely meet untimely deaths or be treated poorly by their owners. Way to go, potential breeder. You are a shining example of what's wrong with backyard breeding in this country. Wear the badge proudly. J. Exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth. Looks like I have a bit of detective work ahead, I'll see if I can find out the breeder the dog came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 Exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth. Looks like I have a bit of detective work ahead, I'll see if I can find out the breeder the dog came from. Good luck. I admire your trying to help this dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'Elle Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 This is so sad and also maddening. I admire your being willing to invest time and energy into trying to help this dog and now into trying to prevent the breeding. I would be tempted just to kidnap the dog for a day and have her spayed, but of course that would be a pretty radical approach and no doubt would damage human relations. If you can find the breeder perhaps they can threaten him with a lawsuit for breach of contract. I do wish you good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 18, 2015 Report Share Posted November 18, 2015 I would be tempted just to kidnap the dog for a day and have her spayed, but of course that would be a pretty radical approach and no doubt would damage human relations. My thoughts exactly. Borrow a car, and don't forget to remove the license plates before pick-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.