Suitability for Performance Sports

[Root Beer]

Breaking this out of Geonni's thread . . .

 

Laurelin had written:

 

 

. . . it isn't true all dogs or most can do sports and really thrive and enjoy the sport/the lifestyle . . . it isn't a good fit for many dogs

 

Amen and amen, can I shout it from the rooftops - AMEN!!!

 

And, quoting myself now, it might not be until one tries vainly to participate in performance sports with a dog who is not suited to it, and has experience of the contrast of a dog who is naturally suited to it and thrives that this fact is so clearly apparent.

 

I've been there and done it, and it is a difficult and constantly heartbreaking undertaking. And then, when you work with a dog who is suited for it, it's like, "OH!! That was the problem!! The performance sport life was not appropriate for that dog!!"

 

 

[CptJack]

Yep.

 

Don't get me wrong, I haven't entirely given up on Molly - she likes agility, but she's NOT wired in a way that makes the environment easy for her and for now we're taking a break. How long that break ends up being, I don't know. Could be until spring and it could be forever.

The reality is, she's very much a BC and she very much likes to move and learn, but she's also very much not a dog who has a *temperament* that makes agility easy. She's environmentally sensitive, she worries about things going on, she flies over threshold easily, and she's NOT good with other dogs who are ramped up - they just push her buttons.

 

In contrast, I started agility with my little mutt and thought for a while she might not be suited to it. I mean - she's not a BC. She had some confidence issues (needing to be right - not fear issues) she used to be really slow/careful, and her structure looks (outwardly) a little funky. She had no toy drive at all. I thought I needed a FAST, high drive dog more than I needed a solid dog. Looking at her now, and with hindsight?

She's a good agility dog. Confidence got built with familiarity, and with confidence came speed. Right from the start, though, she was a dog who wasn't worried about her environment, who didn't fly over threshold, who wanted to work with me and really liked to play games with me. I could not have custom made a better agility dog (for me, anyway).

 

It's not all about 'ability to learn and go fast' - there are a lot of temperament things that I think people just totally discount as a factor. There is more to a good sports dog than drive and athleticism - and at this stage I think temperament is actually the BIGGEST part of it. Those environments can be nuts and a lot of dogs just aren't going to handle them well, no matter how good they are at the activity itself.

[CptJack]

Also my BIL has this fun little delusion where he sees Molly and knows she's a bc and likes to tell me she's MUST be the better and more competitive agility dog - because she's fast and athletic, and because Kylie's little and mostly sleeps in the house.

No. Just no. Kylie and I are still new at this but she's competing, earning titles and dragging in Qs.

Molly's just about sometimes barely able to hold her head together in any kind of agility setting and vaguely kind of finish most of a course. Sometimes.

[gcv-border]

Breaking this out of Geonni's thread . . .

 

Laurelin had written:

 

 

 

Amen and amen, can I shout it from the rooftops - AMEN!!!

 

And, quoting myself now, it might not be until one tries vainly to participate in performance sports with a dog who is not suited to it, and has experience of the contrast of a dog who is naturally suited to it and thrives that this fact is so clearly apparent.

 

I've been there and done it, and it is a difficult and constantly heartbreaking undertaking. And then, when you work with a dog who is suited for it, it's like, "OH!! That was the problem!! The performance sport life was not appropriate for that dog!!"

I am another who has the stories to tell and resulting 'wounds' from a dog who did NOT want to do agility. She was my first dog I tried to do agility with. (ETA: she was motion-sensitive, sound-sensitive, you name it. I just couldn't get her beyond her fears 15 years ago. Also, there were several training techniques back then that, knowing what I know now, were totally wrong for her issues and probably added to her stress.) I felt like such a failure.

 

Then my second dog, who I got about 7 years later, LIVES for agility and the training. He just lights up when he sees agility equipment and realizes he is going to PLAY! Yee Haw!

 

I will spare all the details comparing and contrasting the two dogs (unless you want to hear them ). But it is soo much more fun to participate when you have a willing partner.

 

I admire people who can train a dog who may be shy or sound sensitive or crowd sensitive or ..... just plain lack motivation to play. I learned that I can motivate, but it is sooo much easier to work with a dog that has a lot of try. That is my most important criteria. I am less concerned about performance criteria (yeah, so what, he dropped a bar and cost us a Q, but OMG, the rest of the run was awesome, and his time beat the dog who is on the world team.), than I am about a dog that enjoys what s/he is doing.

 

ETA: I just read CptJack response and agree that temperament is incredibly important.

[Root Beer]

Among the dogs I've owned:

Sammie wasn't suited to any performance sports. Had nose work or barn hunt been around back in his day . . . maybe. He had a great temperament, but no real drive or desire to focus in a performance context. He went through Intro to Rally class and Intro to Agility and he had fun, but he didn't have the "heart" for sports to get into any of it competitively. I tried out a lot of training on him before I would try it with Speedy "for real" back when I was starting and he always enjoyed the lessons. But his heart was in sniffing the yard, being a companion, and just being Sammie.

 

Had I gotten him after I got into sports and started training him right away - sure, there might have been more there with him. But, looking back, I do believe he had the perfect life for him as a non-performance dog.

 

Speedy was the dog I got into sports with and it was the education of a lifetime. Speedy was NOT suited for Agility. Both his tendency to overstimulation made it nearly impossible to be in an environment where other dogs were running. He got overstimulated by his own motion, even! I struggled with him as a Rally dog where we pursued live events together, and, while it was a great experience, I would never do that with a dog like him again in live events. Freestyle was his niche and I am glad we performed live, but it was extremely difficult to manage with his issues. Once performing in the ring, he was awesome, but dealing with keeping him in a good frame of mind before it was our turn was a job.

 

If I had it to do over with him, I would still do performance sports, but - video, video, video - just as we did for the last few years of his life. Cyber Rally and video Freestyle venues were a Godsend for him. He loved the video work just as much as the live work and we didn't have to deal with the "sidelines" stuff.

 

Dean was my almost total performance "washout". The extreme anxiety and noise phobia . . . wow!! Nope - I would NEVER try to do what I tried to do again with another dog with those issues. Again, he loves to train, but live competitions were a nightmare (and more for him than for me). Rally went OK, but Agility was just an uphill climb and we barely got anywhere. He never loved the live competition environment. Barely tolerated it. He did what I asked, or he tried, but he never loved it. Even Speedy did love the actual performance aspect of competition. That was the part that undid Dean the most - performing in front of people!

 

Again, video is awesome for him, and I would train a dog like him again, but I would stick to video, as I am with him now. He is very happy to be retired from live competition. He doesn't miss it in the lest!

 

And then along came Tessa - the most unlikely performance dog of all. At first I didn't even consider keeping her because I never thought she could deal with that life. Then, when I decided to keep her, I vowed to never force that life on her. I provided opportunities - she had to show me that she wanted to run with them. And run she did!!

 

She is just naturally suited for competition. She adores the environment, she takes the stress and the pressures that come along with performance in stride. She bounces back from difficulty. She has heart and a natural desire to focus and work with me. And it is LOVELY!! She always performs at the level of her training. She is a dream. Live or video - she's with me and she's giving it her best. She was born for the performance sport life.

 

Geonni had mentioned that a dog would not walk into an Agility ring and know she was born to do Agility. I honestly believe Tessa did. From the first time she walked over a board in class, I saw her respond with her entire heart. I saw her slip out of her shell (that she was very much hidden in at the time) in spite of herself and I could see that she found something in that kind of work that resonated with her in an awesome way. That has never stopped!!

 

She is definitely my life-competition girl!!

 

Bandit . . . I don't know yet. I really don't know. I think with Bandit it could go either way, depending on how I introduce competition to him. He has already gone to events and performed in Innovations (non-titling) in Freestyle, and he has even done one live event for titling (but Junior Division, short time with food). All of that went well and he shows great promise.

Time will tell. I think he has it. But we will find out what is there together. I would not say, from what I know, that he is not suited to be a performance dog. I believe he is - very much. But we will only know when we get there.

[CptJack]

I really don't think you always know when the dog 'has it' in regards to a sport or activity, but even in dog sports I think you see the light switch on and you just kind of sit back and go 'Wow'.

I didn't see that right away with Kylie - she really just needed to grow up some, and to really understand the game well before she had the confidence to flip onto it - but at 3 and some change I am seeing it BIG TIME now. We had a couple of rough trials, a trial that was okay-ish, and then a trial where she was just 200% on and loving every second of it.

 

We saw those changes happening, of course, at home and practices and lessons, first, but. You could see the lightbulb come on. It wasn't subtle. It was in your face JOY at the opportunity to play.

Molly, honestly, wants to be a disc dog. Her temperament's still in her way regarding live dog events of any sort and that's sad, but I promise you the first time that dog saw a frisbee there was not a doubt in either of our minds that that was her passion in life and her 'calling'. She lit up in a way that was just gorgeous.

Fortunately, she gets to have that with or without live performances of anything

 

ETA: Oh and my other dogs.

Bug could be okay at agility. She's older and has some physical issues and I haven't put the time in, but I might get her in a tunneler's course or two some day. The boys are just not dogs who are interested enough in working with/for people. I'm okay with that. We do other stuff.

[juliepoudrier]

So I just want to air a pet peeve of mine, since I work my dogs on stock and am around folks who do dog sports. It's along the same lines as the initial comment here, with a slight twist. On a number of occasions someone who does agility or other sports will look at a dog's structure and decide it's not suitable for agility, but, you know, the dog can still "do herding."

 

Yes, the two activities are different, and of course if one is just dabbling, it probably doesn't matter, but really "herding" is not easier on a dog, nor is it safer, so please, those of you who suggest that a dog not suitable for sport would still be suitable for stock work, consider that it's probably just not true.

 

J.

[Cass C]

I have not had a chance to read everything, but I agree that while most dogs can do agility/other dog sports a lot just find no joy in it. There is a huge difference in the dogs that light up in agility and those that do it because that's what their owner wants them to do. I have both my almost 2 year old BC LOVES agility with all she has. The moment when she lit up during a training session I could obviously tell that is something that we will both be able to enjoy together. All of us with performance dogs have probably recognized that moment everything clicks for the dog and they start having fun.

 

My 2 1/2 year old BC mix on the other hand will do it, but there is no light in her eyes when we do it. she always enjoys a good game of fetch or trick training, but I still haven't found the thing that makes her light up when she sees/does it.

 

Until you see a dog that lives for a dog sports it's easy to say any dog can do dog sports and enjoy it.

[Cass C]

Just want to add one more thing I also believe that just like stock work a dog can be 'born' for it and that doesn't necessarily mean that they were bred for it. I saw it with Lily the minute we started agility it was like she just knew 'this is what I was born to do'. It felt like instinct kicked in and it's been loads of fun ever since. Her parents were stock dogs, but that doesn't mean she had to be.

[Root Beer]

True - I highly doubt Tessa was bred for Agility. Her structure and level of stimulation are not typical of a sport bred dog, and she's not super fast. Of course, I don't know, but I would be very surprised if she had been bred for sports.

 

But there is definitely something in her nature that clicks with the dog sport life.

[Beach BCs]

On a number of occasions someone who does agility or other sports will look at a dog's structure and decide it's not suitable for agility, but, you know, the dog can still "do herding."

I would think structure is equally important. There's an athletic component to both activities.

[Root Beer]

You do run across folks who make the claim that any high level sport trainer (Agility, Obedience, Freestyle, etc.) could take any dog and make a star out of him or her.

 

I disagree.

 

Fact is, most of the top level people don't get there with dogs who aren't suited for that sport. I realize that some are successful with non-traditional breeds, but there are always individuals within ever breed who will excel in unusual ways. I have a friend who has a Beagle who doesn't sniff in the ring. Go figure. It happens.

 

Saying that any dog could be a top level sport dog would be like saying all children can make the Olympic team. Even with the best training, there are those who do not have the aptitude, or heart, for it.

[CptJack]

To some degree what you mean by 'do' agility (or flyball or disc or whatever) matters - a lot.

 

I actually do believe quite a few dogs can do dog sports on some level and find some success - but that doesn't mean:

A-) The dog will find joy in it

 

or

 

B-) They have a *lot* of success as opposed to a little.

 

You still need a temperamentally and physically sound dog who is willing to work with you, but you don't need much more than that to have a dog who will DO the sport. It's just that doing the sport isn't the same as loving the sport (or environment).

 

I could teach Thud to go over jumps and retrieve a ball - but he'd never really like it or find it fun and he'd never really be particularly good at it.

[Blackdawgs]

I've done it with both types of dogs and will never go back.

 

There is a big difference between doing agility with older dogs or structurally less than desirable dogs, who enjoy the game, and dogs who are physically or mentally struggling. I stopped going to local <insert venue name> trials because I can't stand watching the parade of physically and mentally unsound dogs that are successful (as defined by qualifying scores) by virtue of times that are so generous that almost any dog with a pulse can make time. And these dogs are pushed and pushed so their owners can finish titles and what I call "brute force" championships, where if you go to enough shows, your dog will eventually earn a big, fancy ribbon. This venue has done dogs no favor by being too all-inclusive.

 

.

[Laurelin]

So I started this and I guess I'll reply.

 

I do see it thrown around (not just here!) that all dogs can do dog sports. In my experience and the longer I am around sport dogs, the less I believe this. I honestly think it takes at least some inherent traits and temperament for a dog to be successful. I have seen a good number of dogs wash out, I've dealt with a lot of 'problems' in my own dogs that make them less suitable. I am not talking about elite dogs either, I just mean a dog that will be able to truly enjoy and thrive in that environment.

 

With my oldest it was primarily age. She wasn't 'drivey' but her temperament was good for the sport. She however was older and thus career was short. My middle had health problems that precluded her from sports. Hank is really talented and learns exceptionally fast. And he is speedy and athletic but... we are dealing with some fear of the environment issues. Maybe we will come through them. I have a lot of hope we will.

 

I don't think stock work = agility or anything remotely like that. I did just want to point out that a lot of dogs cannot do sports or at least all sports. Be that temperament issues (fear, reactivity, dog aggression), lack of motivation/drive, structure/health, age, even just SPEED (some dogs really are just plain too slow to make course time)... Most my agility friends have dogs that have 'washed out'. At least at some point. Yes, especially with issues like drive training can help but I don't think it can remotely 'fix' everything. I do believe some dogs are far more predisposed to enjoy the sport world than others. I think it is a pretty special dog that can really compete and thrive in a competitive environment.

[Beach BCs]

I have three dogs and have run all of them in agility.

 

Georgia: She's very steady, she can be quick. If she's focused at all, she will always Q. But I think she only runs because she kinda sorta likes me and it may amuse her. She doesn't love the activity. She'd much rather sit in the ring crew's lap or try to leave the ring and visit people she's never met before. So I rarely run her. It can be quite frustrating. She is quite happy staying home with DH keeping the sofa warm; or when I do bring her to a trial she likes making new friends.

 

Texas: I don't know where he came from originally but I'm pretty sure Sporter Collie is in his DNA. He does very well (he'd do better if his handler could pull it together), LOVES to play the game. More than just about any other game we can think of. For a dog that can be a bit odd in regular life, inside the ring his demeanor/temperament is SOLID. The agility ring make sense to him and he's one happy camper out there.

 

Faith: This little one. Physically, she's the kind of dog you would look at and think Dream Agility Dog. She's wonderful, she's quick and responsive. Loves to learn. But she's very uncomfortable around people she doesn't know well. And she really would rather not make new friends. She worries quite a bit. So with her I've had to be very careful.. I run her in two locations; outdoors in places she's comfortable. She's never Q'd. But she is improving. When she's in a zone, she's amazing. It may well be that she will only be able to compete in these two locations. As long as she keeps trying, I will too; as long as it seems like it's something she wants to keep trying. But once Tex retires I will evaluate whether on not to continue. (The thing she does love: lurecoursing. She would do it all day if given a choice.)

[alligande]

I fully agree that not all dogs are meant to do sport. I have competed with 2 border collies, my current one is pure joy to play with and I truly could not ask for a better agility partner (he could though ) Brody my first did agility because I asked him to. He loved socializing at competitions but could not see the point of the game. But I do think training plays a huge role in this, with Brody I knew nothing and made loads of mistakes starting with not having a clue with how to build value - I was really mean with those rewards, with Rievaulx I had a goal and a plan and very good idea of what I had done wrong and ended up with a dog who adores playing with me, wether it is going through our physio routine and learning new tricks for that or agility.

 

Over the years I have been competing I have seen loads of dogs who hated competing and sometimes it is just matter of bad training other times it is personality. If Kristen told me her dog did not like a sport I would believe her, with many dogs though I think it is because of training techniques. I teach a husky in one of my classes, when I met them all the husky wanted to do was leave the ring, both human and dog were stressed, watching them in a competition class was painful. 8 months later the husky is never going to set the world on fire but she has Qd and most importantly she has a gorgeous husky smile the whole time. I used to train with a springer spaniel who walked round a course, his owner just could not figure out how to build any value in fun, yet she had a dog who's manners were perfect so her training worked for her lifestyle but not for sports.

[Laurelin]

Hank enjoys the game a LOT and is crazy fast and fun in practice. But he also has weirdness about the environment. He has very specific and odd fears. One happens to be about people standing next to the ring. ...Which is not good for trials. Also giant ceiling fans are terrifying to him and most arenas have them. I have a lot of hope with some down time and good experiences we will overcome it. But man it'd be nice not to have to deal with. I am going to be a bit more picky with my next dog. But he is young and he seems to be a dog that once he gets over something he gets over it completely. He figured out the teeter issue very fast and never looked back. I am hopeful there will be a breakthrough!

[Root Beer]

To some degree what you mean by 'do' agility (or flyball or disc or whatever) matters - a lot.

 

I actually do believe quite a few dogs can do dog sports on some level and find some success - but that doesn't mean:

 

A-) The dog will find joy in it

 

or

 

B-) They have a *lot* of success as opposed to a little.

 

You still need a temperamentally and physically sound dog who is willing to work with you, but you don't need much more than that to have a dog who will DO the sport. It's just that doing the sport isn't the same as loving the sport (or environment).

 

I could teach Thud to go over jumps and retrieve a ball - but he'd never really like it or find it fun and he'd never really be particularly good at it.

 

True.

 

Dean loved Agility class where he was among a few of his best human friends, and I was working with him with a tug.

 

That doesn't mean he loved the sport. He didn't. He loved to play games with me at training class. And that was great - I was sorry I had to retire him from that (hip issue).

 

We have a tunnel in our yard and every day he is home my husband plays with Dean with the tunnel. Dean loves running through the tunnel for his frisbee. That doesn't mean he will excel at an Agility competition. He very rarely did.

 

One might see him playing in the yard with his tunnel and say, "that's a dog who loves Agility", but he doesn't . . .

 

He has a bunch of Agility titles and I am proud of every one of them. But Tessa gets more joy out of one competition run than Dean got out of his entire competition career. That's the biggest measure of her success for me.

[CptJack]

Yeah, the balance for me with Molly is that she really, really loves agility -

 

and really, really, really doesn't do well with specific behaviors from other dogs, which are likely to be present in an agility trial.

 

So I'm in the boat of not having given up, but giving her some time go gain maturity and trying periodically. If she never gets there, it really is okay - I have a dog I can compete with, anyway - but I will be a lot more careful in what I bring home next go around. I'd rather have a solid, stable, temperament than a dog with all the speed and drive in the world. Not that I want bad structure and a dog who is completely unmotivated by anything and is pokey slow, but my first priorities really will be biddability and a stable temperament.

[CptJack]

. .

 

He has a bunch of Agility titles and I am proud of every one of them. But Tessa gets more joy out of one competition run than Dean got out of his entire competition career. That's the biggest measure of her success for me.

 

Yes.

 

And my biggest measure of success with Kylie is ultimately that while her speeds have shot up and she had a 100% Q rate at her last trial that my dog is ultimately confident, at home, and joyful on an agility course.

 

She didn't START there, mind you, but holy crap did she ever turn onto it and, after having had that kind of partnership, fluid communication, and working with a dog who is totally in love with what they're doing, nothing else even comes close.

[geonni banner]

To clarify: I don't think that any dog can do competition agility, but I have found that nearly all dogs (that have a pulse - I like that!) can benefit from doing agility exercises - in a back yard or just navigating street obstacles like retaining walls, etc. Dogs benefit by having a heightened body awareness, and by developing coordination and confidence with unfamiliar footing. They also can benefit from facing new obstacles, like parkour dogs. Challenging themselves and thinking in motion.

 

To me that is all agility, and to think that your dog is not doing agility if it does not compete, or even do it in a setting with others doing the same thing, is silly, to me. Agility can be great for most dogs, but competition is all about the people. The dogs may get stoked at agility trials, but that is, I believe, at least 50% the human transmitting their eagerness to compete, and to win.

[CptJack]

Sure. I'd agree competing is down to the person enjoying it. I know my dog gets a lot out of a full day and many opportunities to play agility with me (full courses - not something we often get to do several of in a day), and for that she needs a certain kind of temperament (because the competition comes with an environment - many dogs, many people, a long day, lots of activity) but mostly the competitive aspects come from me. Dog doesn't care if she wins a ribbon or a title.

But I am part of the equation. The human is part of the picture.

And *I* don't want to just play in my back yard. I have no desire to do 'agility' on the street by hopping off and on retaining walls and to me, honestly? Claling that agility is like calling AKC herding herding. It's NOT THE SAME GAME.

 

But anyway: *I* want the setting and environment and social aspects of agility (classes,, practices, private lessons, and, yeah, trials). *I* want the objective party (judge) to say "you nailed that, you did well, here is your reward in a shiny ribbon and/or title'.

And you know? I don't think my wants in that are irrelevant. I'm allowed to want to do specific things and to seek out dogs who can do (and LOVE doing, not just tolerate!) those things, too.

(FYI, there is dog parkour now and that's what you're describing.)

[Cass C]

The point is not all dogs ENJOY agility. My BC mix has 0 interest in agility except that I told her to. To her it isn't fun it is just behaving because someone told her to do it. Competing or not has nothing to do with the fact she doesn't enjoy it. Lily enjoys it and she hasn't competed yet, she will actively seek out equipment to play on.

[Laurelin]

Part of the sport is for the human and I don't think that's a bad thing at all. Maybe it's because I am in the community but it really is a fantastic community here. Many people (like in horse sports or any other sports) get a lot of their own socialization and exercise out of it and build friendships and a lifestyle around it. I don't think it should be minimized... I've seen people's lives very changed by it . I know that sounds cheesy but... I don't know where I'd be without it.

 

So that's why I do think it's important to recognize not all dogs are suited to people who WANT to be a part of that.

 

It's not because I 'want to win'. I don't care about that at all.

 

I have taken classes with dogs that really do seem to hate agility in general. Some dogs just can't trial but can really love classes. Some dogs really just don't care or don't like the sport period. Yes, sometimes changes in training methods could turn that around but some dogs just don't really want to do agility.