Pup on Calves

[stockdogranch]

This is some video we took of Bukkle on the calves yesterday. The video is really poor quality, as it was taken with my little point & shoot. There is also no sound. I think if you click on the picture, it will take you to the vid:

 

 

All we are doing at this point is working on her keeping the stock together and bringing them to me as we do walkabouts. There are also a few downs with little gathers. Her down is pretty solid at this point. As you can see, she is all about the heel bite .

 

The way she is working is fairly typical of a young pup on calves--she looks pretty aggressive, I think, although she really is controlling them and not just harassing them. I will try to get some video of her on sheep here soon, to show the difference in the approach to the different stock. On sheep, she is pretty thoughtful with a really nice pace.

 

She is almost ready to start doing some chores with the whole group of sheep (about 175 total, including some little lambs). I'll have her taking them to and from the night pen out to pasture daily. I had her gather the whole group (from a smallish area) the other day and used her to gate sort. She did a great job.

 

Thanks for looking,

A

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks for posting this here Anna. I know it seems as if no one looks here anymore, but I think some folks still do!

 

As I said, I think she looks good. I don't see aggression so much as enthusiasm, and about what one would expect from a 7-month-old who's trying to figure out the best way to control the stock. I think she's pretty darn brave for being such a baby.

 

I'm looking forward to future videos that show her progression.

 

J.

[Cynthia P]

Nice job Bukkle. I need to video my youngsters a little more often

[Liz P]

Last week I started my 3 year old on cattle. She is looking really nice so far; moves them at a good pace, doesn't back down, no trouble taking them off the fence or out of corners, nice low heal bite and nose bite when the cows need extra motivation. I am so pleased with her that I want to enter her in cattle dog trials when I move back to an area where they are available.

 

I have a pup off her that I started on sheep and goats this spring. She has never backed down, is willing to grip (but only when she needs to), can stay calm and move stock in high pressure situations (pens, chutes, etc) and has phenomenal pace and feel. When she was just a few months old the buck challenged her and she gave him a lovely nose bite. He never gave her trouble after that. I have not tried her on cows yet, but eventually I want her to work them. My fear is that a kick will turn her off them. She is a supremely biddable dog that is sensitive to correction from me, though she never seems phased by anything the stock does. Would you continue to work a pup like that on sheep and goats until she is more mature and confident, or do you start them on calves and work on building their confidence?

[stockdogranch]

Hey, Liz. Once they know enough to get behind the stock and bring them to me, I put them on calves, BUT, I make sure I know what calves I am putting a youngster on. These have only been here a week, but I worked hard to dog break them with the older dogs so that they are treated fairly by dogs (appropriate heel or nose hit when needed, but then let go and give the stock a chance to move off). So I know these calves aren't going to try to run over a dog. I also usually use an older cattle-savvy dog with the young pup the pup's first time on cattle--the older dog will usually show the pup that it's ok to be a bit aggressive (especially if the pup has been corrected for gripping sheep (usually cheap shots)). During that first work, once the pup engages and is moving the calves on its own, I back the older dog off.

 

As for the pup getting kicked, I think a lot of a pup's reaction is based on *your* reaction to that kick. When the pup gets that first kick to the chops (and it will, for sure), I try really hard to not react at all--no gasps, no running to the pup and so on. I will just take a deep breath and say "walk up." Usually the pup will look stunned for a second or two, maybe shake its head, but then it just goes back to work. Once it has gone back to work, if I am afraid it got really hurt, *then* I will call the pup off and check it out. It usually only takes a kick or two for the pup to get smarter about those heel bites--looking for the heel that has weight on it to go for that one, since that one can't kick immediately. You can seen an experienced dog watching for the right heel and the timing to take that bite.

 

So, bottom line, I'd put the pup on calves, if you can control the situation and be sure of the stock you're putting it on,

A

[Laurae]

I think she's pretty darn brave for being such a baby.

 

Me, too. I think she looks great, Anna!

[Gloria Atwater]

Whee! She's a keen little rascal! I've become an old lady about my dogs on cows - I just don't do them, any more - but what I see here looks pretty good!

 

What I like is that although she's hitting them hard on the heels, she's not flip-flopping to the heads and just dashing from one end to the other. She's letting them have a direction to go and keeping them moving. That's pretty darned nice, especially for such a young 'un. Thanks for sharing!

 

Gloria

[Sue R]

She was all business in February when she had a chance to walk up on the calves that one day, and I loved watching her thinking and being brave. I have a photo or two, and I thought I posted one here.

 

What a girl! And thanks to you, Anna, for posting here. Like Julie said, there isn't much posted here about training or dogs/pups working and little feedback sometimes, but that doesn't mean that photos/descriptions/videos aren't appreciated and read/looked at.

 

Meanwhile, Dan-the-Man has been very useful lately - with the power out, calves have figured they can get out and putting them back in is one of his favorite jobs. And holding the whole herd (all 61 of them) off the fenceline so Ed could bring in a bale of much-desired hay.

 

PS - I clicked on the photo and got the Photobucket page but it said the video was not available.

[Liz P]

I appreciate learning and reading what I can about working cattle. I've wanted to try my dogs on them for years but only recently had the opportunity. Now I am hooked and am looking forward to learning a whole new side to stock dogs.

 

Thanks for the advice on pups. Maybe next time I have the chance to work them I will put my pup in with the dog broke calves. She has a gleam in her eye when the goats try to pull something and she gets to grip. She NEVER uses her teeth when it's not called for though. She is a fabulously honest dog.

[terrecar]

Like Julie said, there isn't much posted here about training or dogs/pups working and little feedback sometimes, but that doesn't mean that photos/descriptions/videos aren't appreciated and read/looked at.

 

They are very much appreciated.

 

....back to lurking and learning mode....

[Sue R]

Here's little Bukkle in February, determined to give one of the big dogs a hand with the cattle (this was a group of six, very nice to work) with Skamper (I think) ready for back-up if needed.

 

 

She was already showing style, grit, and determination - and, I think, like Skamper, she's a thoughtful sort of youngster but one who will have no problem getting her point across with stock that requires a little more "persuasion".

[stockdogranch]

Haha! Thanks for posting this, Sue. I had forgotten this incident--she was so little that I didn't think she needed to be on a line when we were watching Kevin work his dog Nate. But she ran out there and got right up in their faces

A

[Pam Wolf]

Liz too bad you can't bring her to the conference. I got some nice easy ones

[Liz P]

Yeah, I know. I don't think the airlines allow dogs to fly during August because of the heat.

[Maja]

What a dandy pup!

Maja

[Chesney's Girl]

 

*goes back to practicing for my interview on the 18th so I can have one just like her next year*

[Maralynn]

Wow - what an impressive little gal!!

[Sue R]

 

*goes back to practicing for my interview on the 18th so I can have one just like her next year*

You know, that's quite an idea. If I could justify another pup/dog, one from that breeding would be awfully tempting. Skamper, Bukkle, both are really nice.

[emilyfalk]

Thanks for the video and for posting the added info, Anna. You've answered all of my questions before I could ask them! Will look forward to the sheep video, too.

[toney]

What a nice young dog Anna!

[Liz P]

I was finally able to download and watch the video. At what age do you start asking for clean flanks?

[stockdogranch]

At what age do you start asking for clean flanks?

 

Honestly, I don't. I don't push dogs out, as I find they naturally widen out on their own as they get older and mature. I let the pup develop on its own, so that way it gets a feel for its stock, and learns how wide or square it needs to be in any given situation. I think flanks need to be as square as they need to be *in that particular situation*--in other words, I don't like an arbitrarily square flank all the time, as I find it is not effective in some situations. Now when I am first starting a pup, if it is trying to grab hold every time it goes around, I'll get on its case for that. I don't want the pup to think that grabbing on every time it flanks is ok. But if it is just slicey, I don't worry about that, as I find it to be self-correcting. As the pup develops, it learns that being slicey is just not working, as it makes a mess of things. So over time, the pup widens out, both on flanks and on outruns.

 

I would also add that this "method" (or lack thereof) may also be a function of training my dogs to be successful competing on cattle and just doing work on the ranch, as opposed to sheep trialling. I think flanks need to be more square, in general, for sheep, as sheep are more sensitive side-to-side than cattle, usually. And the dog needs to come further round to the shoulder on cattle to move them, and even farther around to the head to turn them (again, generally speaking). So, for instance, on the drive, say, going to a set of panels, if the dog were as square on cattle as one would normally like to see and that would be effective on sheep, the dog would end up being off contact and not influencing the cattle to turn. I also think that if the dog is as deep at the top of the outrun on cattle as we normally like to see on sheep, it may not be very effective in lifting those cattle. I do quite a bit of setout at sheep trials, and my dogs seem to adjust appropriately to move them calmly and quietly. This September I will be using a young dog quite a bit for setout for her first time (she's done only a little bit in the past). I would expect that at first her flanks may not be ideal for those range ewes, as she's more accustomed to moving cattle, but experience tells me that after 3 or 4 sets, she will begin to square herself more, as she'll get a feel for those range ewes and see what works with them. But, since my dogs are used to trialling on cattle, I would fully expect that if I were to trial them on sheep, particularly for the younger dogs (the older ones have it figured out by now), I would likely lose a few points at the top of the outrun for being a little "tight," and probably a few on the lift for being a bit "rash," since their "default" setting is for cattle. The advantage with doing setout is that the dog is moving sheep from the same flock over and over again, and so can get a feel for what kind of treatment they require. I find that once the dog has had experience with different flocks of range ewes, they automatically adjust themselves for the stock they are presented with.

 

I don't tend to drill dogs hardly at all--I do most of my work in the context of getting jobs done. I do set up a lot of outruns in decent sized pastures with a lot of sheep (who tend to spread way out), so that the dog needs to learn to scope the field. I think this helps them in making on-the-spot adjustments on outruns, which I think also translates to flanks. And they do learn a "get baaaaaack" in this context to widen them out, mostly so they see all the sheep and don't get locked onto the first packet they come to.

 

I also very much dislike fence running dogs. I see it a lot out here on outruns, and I think it wastes energy and time, and if the stock decided to take off, the dog is not in a position to do anything about it--it's off contact. And then, when you end up on a huge field with no fences (like Zamora), those wide-running dogs can get lost on the outrun.

 

But I guess mostly, it's a kind of philosophical thing--I would rather the pup develop its own feel for stock and adjust accordingly, rather than to teach the dog a prescribed "shape" to follow every time it flanks. I find I am pretty much this way with most things in training these dogs--I like the dog to figure things out and find its own way of interacting with the stock. I like to make it clear to the dog what the job is, and let the dog decide how to best execute that job.

 

That was a lot of rambling; not sure it answered your question

A

[Liz P]

Sorry for the belated reply. Work, having visiting family and being out of town for a trial kept me busy.

 

I don't push dogs out either. I ask for clean flanks, which eventually translates into a clean outrun (since that is just a really big flank). There is a difference between demanding clean flanks and a person stubbornly insisting on wide flanks.

 

You have sheep and train your dogs on them as well, right? Do your sheep not need clean flanks in order to be worked calmly?

 

I would agree that from my admittedly limited experience a dog must lift cattle differently than sheep, but they still need to get around them during the outrun. So, I guess I am still not seeing why it isn't important for a dog to know what a clean flank is no matter what the stock (a clean flank on cattle or heavy sheep will be much closer than one on lighter stock).

[Pam Wolf]

hey Liz, I heard you did quite well at the trial? 1st in P/N with June-and placed well with the pup! congrats, isn't this June's 1st trial season?

 

BTW, Cattle do lift differently from sheep, but more like goats. However a good dog CAN lift them gently and calmly. In my experience, movement works much better on cows than on sheep, but do that in our temps and the dog will be dead. i still prefer a dog that moves cattle with strenght of conviction rather than slash and dash

[Liz P]

Yes, thanks. After you beat some sense into the handler, my dogs suddenly began to work so much nicer. Funny how that works.

 

I am very pleased with how Juniper is coming along and will be trying her out in Open starting this fall. I ran her once in ranch last year and she placed (3rd), but haven't had her out again until this summer. I just didn't have the time for training, let alone for traveling to trials. Aside from chores, she is still only getting 1 or 2 focused sessions a week, and for the past month those have been on cattle, not sheep.

 

I am trying to get Hazel ready for Nursery, but I think she needs this winter to grow up a bit. This trial season was just about getting her used to a set out person and the whole trial experience.