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#241 Dixie_Girl

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 04:16 PM

I don't think it is the BCs being used as agility dogs. It is letting AKC get any part of them. It is indescrimant breeding.
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#242 CoRayBee

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Lunar:
"I have just two words for all those people out there who insist on entering their dogs in these beauty contests- "German Shepherd.""

Would you mind explaining that?


Sure. What I meant was that the dogs bred from Czech/DDR lines bear little to no resemblance at all to the dogs you see in the show ring over here. I mentioned the GSD because to me it is the most obvious example of what happens when you start breeding for looks. People looking for a Police service dog or a Schutzhund competitor avoid American showline dogs like the plague, and for good reason.

The last time I watched German Shepherds in a conformation ring, it made me ill. The Winners Dog could not even stand up properly, but hey, it sure looked fancy prancing around the ring. There was one DDR-bred male entered, a gorgeous black sable powerhouse, and the judge all but ignored him.

Up here, the CKC does not recognize border collies and I couldn't be happier. I cannot compete in obedience but I can still do pretty much everything else with a bc. Anyone that thinks that the AKC won't do to the border collie what it did to the GSD is fooling themselves.
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#243 Pipedream Farm

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Shetlander:
If I was achieving what Rosanne is achieving, even though it isn't herding, I'd be thrilled and proud. It takes incredible training, skills and talent to take a team to that level. Agility, though a sport, is also a passion for many and a profession for some. I think it's important to remember that even if an activity means nothing to us, it can mean a huge amount to someone else.

We're happy for you, Rosanne, and the dogs for the teamwork, accomplishments, and enjoyment you get by participating in any sport/activity. We're thrilled that people like you (who want to do things with their dogs) have Border Collies.

But Rosanne has implied that she MAY breed her dogs and this is where we get VERY particular. Breeding affects the overall characteristics of the breed; since the choices made by the breeder are selectively breeding in or out characteristics. This is how the overall characteristics of the breed changes. THIS IS HOW "BORDER COLLIE" WILL CHANGE (where BORDER COLLIE is what the breed is). So now you'll say, "but it's only one litter". True, but it's only one litter for Rosanne and every other agility and flyball, and pet Border Collie owner; the sum of all of these "only one litter"s far exceeds the sum of all the working bred litters. Now BORDER COLLIE is determined by the selective breeding of the sum of all the "only one litter"s not by the working bred litters. Soon BORDER COLLIE as we know it, as you know it and need it for agility, flyball, and other activities is changed.

Genetic diversity is important for the health of a breed; but as the quality of the working instants weaken in lines of Border Collies (due to inappropriate selective breeding) we loose genetic diversity (i.e. there are fewer lines of Border Collies that can be crossed and maintain the quality of the working instincts).

When it comes to breeding you cannot just think individually (your litter), you must think breed wide.

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#244 Bill Fosher

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 12:56 AM

Roseanne D. wrote:
I have absolutely NO interest in AKC herding.


You said earlier that you weren't interested in AKC agility either, but saw it as a means to your ends -- ie, getting the right kind of titles so that people would pay you for instruction, and getting to the FCI, whatever that is (pardon my ignorance).

I'd imagine that if you had enough AKC herding titles that you'd be able to get better gigs as an AKC herding instructor as well. Hell, you'd have shots at championships! And we all know that the USBCHA doesn't give out titles that AKC students understand.

Reminds me of the old joke about the man who approaches a woman in a bar and offers her a million dollars if she'll go to bed with him. She agrees. On the way to the hotel room, he asks if she'd do it for $5 instead.

"What kind of girl do you think I am?" she protests

"We've already established that. Now we're discussing price."

So apparently for you, the price is a shot at world-level competition. I'll guarantee you that it's a hell of a lot easier to get to that level in the AKC herding world than it is in the real venues.

...

You've also said you don't want to be a breeder. Yet you are considering breeding your dogs. If you're still reading this thread, would you explain the distinction that apparently exists in your mind between "a breeder" and someone who breeds dogs?

....

And, not that you asked me, but if you wanted to bring your bitch to one of my dogs, you'd be turned down flat. Simply shredding your AKC papers wouldn't be enough, because the bitch would still be AKC registgered, and you'd be able to register the pups with the AKC without my knowledge. And even if you were able to get the AKC to deregister your bitch -- which others have tried to do and failed -- your affiliation with AKC events and your stated "need" (read excuses) to register with the AKC would disqualify you.

#245 kelpiegirl

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 01:56 AM

This is interesting conversation As for what miztiki mentioned- yes, herding ability, and for that, I mean take a young dog out, and it already has all the tools in it's box, and the handler puts names to it, that is inborn. That is incredible, and one of the most awe inspiring things I have seen. To me, it is one of the best ways to spend time, look at young dogs start, and then grow to become reliable, intellligent, and biddable dogs, who can move WHATEVER you ask, WHEREVER you ask.
I have seen this in many BC's. No, not all are created equal, and it is hard to define, but once you see it, you know what it is.Julie
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#246 kajarrel

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 04:10 AM

The problem with this whole discussion is that people are assuming that others' actions are based on logic -- but this is really a question of ethics and values -- very hard to change. :rolleyes:

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#247 juliepoudrier

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 04:20 AM

Good point Kim!

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#248 Shetlander

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:
So now you'll say, "but it's only one litter". True, but it's only one litter for Rosanne and every other agility and flyball, and pet Border Collie owner; the sum of all of these "only one litter"s far exceeds the sum of all the working bred litters.

Actually, I'm not saying anything about breeding only one litter. I don't herd and I don't breed, so I can't contribute to that aspect of the conversation. I'm trying to "listen and learn." My point is if you want the sports people to better understand why it's important to only buy from carefully bred working dogs, it will be helpful not to sound dismissive about sports. I've even read elsewhere where sports people are bluntly told they should get rescues or adult dogs who don't do well in herding instead of a puppy. If someone wants to participate in AKC events, it's certainly the breeder's right to deny them a puppy or dog based on that information. However, if few or no working breeder will sell a puppy to them, it limits their choices to the sports breeders you deplore. Lastly, sports people may be more open to your message about the importance of breeding for working ability only if they aren't feeling alienated or defensive.

Liz


 


#249 Pipedream Farm

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:04 AM

Liz,

What often happens is sports people come with assumptions about "working ability" which are too low of a standard and they can't comprehend or won't listen to our arguments about their "working standard" being too low to prevent the degradation of the breed. To be blunt, it's hard when someone tells you your preconceived notions, those that are also held by your peers, are wrong. Most people automatically become defensive and feel alienated; I do this too. It would be like someone coming to agility with their own ideas on how to teach the obstacles because they've taught their dog to rollover. While the bond between them and their dog is good; how they taught "rollover" may not be appropriate for teaching weave poles and it certainly doesn't make them educated enough to know what makes a great agility dog.

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#250 Eileen Stein

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:08 AM

<< Telling me I am patently wrong will not change my stance. Telling me what my dogs can do to be considered true working dogs might help. >>

I believe Roseanne left us when she realized she couldn't use us to provide a rationale for how she could get her non-working dogs to be considered true working dogs, or at least not without having to listen to a lot of stuff to which her mind is closed. So I took her at her word and stopped responding to her at that point.

But whether or not she's still reading, I think there's one important point that's worth highlighting in what she said.

<< I also think that most of the border collies I see from purely sport breedings are looking trashy and losing their edge. >>

<< Nor would I breed to a sport collie, as most of those have some strange backgrounds, and strangely enough - agility people are breeding for color and emotional attachment - merles abound and dogs with not-so-great health histories and unhealthy close relatives are being bred. >>

It seems to me this is exactly what we fear, in microcosm. Surprise, surprise, the gene pool of sport collies is polluted. Because these dogs are not being bred for working ability, but for other stuff, their essential qualities have changed and are no longer adequate for a top agility competitor's needs. So she wants to dip into our unpolluted gene pool to freshen the polluted one. Will her little dips serve to unpollute the pool of agility dogs? No, and neither would thousands of such dips; they will become polluted too, because breeding in that pool will continue to be done for non-working purposes, with the same results. So how many bred-to-work dogs can we afford to have channeled out of our gene pool and into the bred-for-agility pool before ours becomes too depleted to sustain itself? Especially if, at the same time, those doing the diverting are bent on redefinition, to get their dogs "to be considered true working dogs"? And especially if there's no easily-understandable label we can use to distinguish the working pool from the other pool with the same name? Nobody knows the exact answer, but anyone ought to be able to see the danger, and see that the danger to us increases if the pools become joined in a single pool. One sad thing is that the ones bringing our dogs into the polluted pool, and who are determined to make it one big unified pool, can go on saying and believing that what they're doing isn't affecting the breed at all, since they don't know or care enough about working ability to recognize its decline.

Throughout her posting, Roseanne seemed to view the breed as splitting between conformation Barbies on the one hand, and the "working dogs" (i.e., those that work at herding, work at agility, work at other dogsports) on the other. She's with us, Barbies are icky. But the REAL split is between dogs bred as border collies have always been, for working ability, and Border Collie bred for anything else (i.e., all the AKC pastimes). Those in the second category are going to change and--from a working perspective--deteriorate, and it's in our interest to build as big a dam between us and them as we possibly can.

<< One thing I have noticed is that I am still getting bashed for registering/competing in AKC agility. >>

Well, it was you who said

<< Hopefully in the enxt 10 years USDAA and IFCS will get it together and I will no longer have any need to show in AKC agility. I pre-date it, I dislike their stupid politics, and I agree that they ruin breeds. >>

So if you agree that the AKC ruins breeds, but you're going to register border collies with them and support them with your dogs, fees and talents anyway, what do you expect -- admiration?

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#251 Rave

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:11 AM

Wow, took me awhile to catch up on this thread; I hope Roseanne is still reading...

Here you guys have an opportunity to really get through to someone in the sports world who I would bet probably has a large degree of influence on her students and fellow competitors in her area. I think education without attacking is key here and I hope you haven't already turned Roseanne off to "herding" people. She already mentioned she was influenced to actually work her dogs before breeding them - that's a step in the right direction. You're certainly not going to help her, and others like her, really understand your point of view by attacking them.

Roseanne, people here are hard-core, which I'm sure you've figured out already. What they may lack in tact, they certainly make up for in passion. They're passionate about preserving the Border Collie as a working dog, and any perceived threat to that makes their blood boil; so please don't take it too personally. Go work your dogs with a USBCHA trainer, you'll learn much more in person than here on these Boards.

-Laura & Wick

p.s... I've seen Drifter run and it's laughable to think someone would suggest you give up agility and your World Team potential just to do herding. :rolleyes:

p.p.s... Any idea where/when the NE Regional will be this year? Thx!

#252 Eileen Stein

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:52 AM

At 250 posts, this is the longest thread we've ever had. I'm getting a little worried about pushing the size much further. Perhaps we could end it here, and if people have further thoughts to add, they could start a new thread? If nothing else, I think the thread has answered the original question and provided the definition of a Barbie Collie.

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#253 juliepoudrier

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 07:02 AM

edited to add: Sorry Eileen, apparently you were posting your request at the same time I was creating my missive below. I'll not add any more to this thread's length.

Originally posted by rtphokie:
p.s... I've seen Drifter run and it's laughable to think someone would suggest you give up agility and your World Team potential just to do herding. :rolleyes:

Laura,
Despite your little smiley, I expect you're not kidding when you say this. The fact is that none of us hard core folks have said to Rosanne that she should *give up* agility for herding. That's *your* interpretation of what we've been saying (and probably points to one reason we don't seem to get through to the nonherding folk--people are quick to interpret what's being said on the basis of their own life experience instead of just taking what's being said at face value). What we *did say* is that someone who is not training their dog to herd ("do herding") and to do so at a high level should not be breeding border collies.

If I were to walk up to you and say I plan to breed my border collies because I *think* they would be good agility dogs without ever having really trained or competed in agility to a high level, let alone Rosanne's level, you would probably laugh in my face, and I wouldn't blame you. I could be offended by that, or I could think, "Hmmm...maybe there's more to this agility thing than I originally thought." If I can see the distinction when the story goes in the other direction, why can't people who mainly do sports understand our viewpoint without getting offended and thinking we're talking down to them or that we consider them irrelevant?

How many times have you read on these very boards how much we support people who do agility or flyball or tracking or whatever else with their border collies simply because it gives the dogs a fuller life? And yet we look down on you? I think who we actually look down on are the folks who get border collies as accessories and only do things with them when it's convenient for the human. But I digress....

Rosanne herself has said several things (as reposted by Eileen above) that imply that she does get the concept that folks breeding exclusively sport dogs are changing the breed, and not for the better. She has acknowledged that the qualities she cares about (and that have at least in part--one half of the team--enabled her to get to the top levels in agility to the point where she has a chance to be on the international team) come from the fact that border collies have been bred for work first for many years. Why is it then offensive when we then point out that dabbling in herding isn't enough for a person to make a judgment about the breedability of dogs?

J.

I know nothing with any certainty, but the sight of stars makes me dream.

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Beloved, and living in memory:
Willow (6/1997-5/2014, run free, my heart), Boy (3/1995-10/2010, RIP), Jill (8/1996-5/2012, RIP), Farleigh (12/1998-7/2014, RIP), Kat (4/2000-6/2015, I miss you, my sweet, funny little clown), and Twist (11/2001-11/2016, you were my once-in-a-lifetime dog and forever my BEST girl)

The current pack:
Lark, Phoebe, Pipit, Birdie, Kiskadee (Kiss), Rue, Corbie, and Kite!

Willow's Rest, Tunis, Tunis mules, Leicester longwool, Teeswater, Border Leicester, and Gulf Coast Native sheep


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#254 Eileen Stein

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 11:48 AM

I have deleted everything posted after I requested people to stop posting here (except for Julie's post, since she wrote it before she saw mine), and I have locked the thread. All of the later posts were ones that I'm sure people would like to reply to, and it isn't fair that they should feel they can't without violating my request, when the posts themselves violated it. I tried, in fairness, to give the last word to someone (Laura) whom I would have liked to reply to myself. Sorry it didn't work out that way. Feel free to start another thread if you have something that needs to be said.

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