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Boyden challenged me and I need help


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#41 kajarrel

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 03:27 AM

I know that steroids can have these kinds of effects on male humans. I'll see if I can find any links about that. But I know of several cases of criminal violence attributed to a young wrestler or football player's efforts to bulk up.

Wrong steroids - the steroids athletes use are anabolic /androgens not the corticosteroids that are commonly used to treat skin problems in dogs.

Kim

#42 bcnewe2

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 03:27 AM

Hey Miz
Just a few thoughts...
Pack orders change. Boy and Fynn are rescues. Their lives have been turned upside down on lots of occasions. They have to figure the new situations out each time they enter one. That takes time. Not weeks, but months, sometimes years.
Every time I bring a dog into my house, things change. Sometimes it's not a new dog but internal pack order changes and seems to turn upside down again. Then straighten out. But will be different from before.

Boy maybe just getting used to his new surroundings and trying to gain position. Fynn sounds like second in command to me. Boy sounds like he's in charge. However nicely, but defiantly in charge.
You have "loved" Boy so much you might have been sending the wrong messages. Letting love get in the way of discipline. I know all about that...It happens here all the time. :rolleyes:
Wanting Boy and Fynn to be perfect buds may take years. I know my mentors would be asking me....What I want to change and why.
When Boy looks at you is he deciding who's in charge? Then you get nervous and could be sending the wrong message? Thinking about the vet trip, you are/were worried, Boy picks up on that and worries with you. I'm not considering the actual medical issues that might, or might not be going on, just the head stuff.
Take a step back from the situation, try not to worry about the psychological stuff, rule out or rule in the medical stuff. Then start a new day.

I have two adult daughters. There were times when they got along perfectly, and then there were years...and I mean YEARS...where they hated each others guts. Point being...things are always changing in a family. Be it Human or Dog!

I'm thinking about you and how you?re feeling. Sending positive thoughts your way.
Why don't you take a break from the dogs today or tomorrow, go shopping, or swimming, do something without the dogs. I know they are your life, but you all could use a break. You'll be happier to see them, less stressed, and so will they. Remember absence makes the heart grow fonder. Or at least clears the mind from the present.
Hope you have a relaxing day.
Kristen
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#43 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 05:03 AM

Miz, Kristen has some very valid points about pack order being diverse even on a given day. Based on what you said here in your post I'd say that Boy sees you as leader and Fynne sees Boy as leader and maybe Boy has the mentality that if he has pack support he can over throw you.

BUT and this is a big BUT- you know your dog better than anyone and if you say something is off then you are probably right. If your vet who doesn't see Boyden every day says he's off too then that vet is a pretty darned good one (as long as you didn't say it first) and there is probably something medically wrong with him. Have you had his spine checked by x-ray for misalignment? Just another stray possibility, He could have hurt himself playing with Fynne or even when he was correcting her and went overboard that first time.
Who knows? a Chiropracter might be in order. I also read where dogs with spinal misalignment will not show pain (it's a weakness) but can show aggression. My expreience with big male dogs is that if they refuse to perform on command where they were fairly reliable before - the result has been premature onset arthritis or either the back or hips. Actually my friend just noticed similar behavior in her 6 year old agility dog and on x-ray found so much wrong (including a really bad back) with the dog it was amazing that she didn't try to kill anthing that touched her. Most of these problems didn't just start at age 6 they were there from early on and got worse over time.

It is always best to rule out physical stuff first before trying to dissect your dog for serious mental issues.

I think swimming is a fabulous idea! Or go get a facial or a pedicure. A good facial can feel like a full body massage. I imagine you can't have massages because of your back? Or I'd suggest one of those. Sounds like an awesome day I have going for you, can I come? I'm not a true girly girl either, kind of a tomboy but I endulge in these little treats now and then and I highly recommend them.

#44 Kyrasmom

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 05:59 AM

You might want to ask your vet to check Boy's thyroid. I'm kind of experiencing something similar with one of my dogs, he's unusually moody, unusually aggressive, and something is just off. A friend suggested we check his thyroid as there seems to be a correlation between aggression and low thyroid issues. Sure enough, his was very very very low and surprised even my vet who was convinced it was behavioral. I've just started his meds so I don't know if in addition to low thyroid he ALSO has a bahavioral issue, but it's worth exploring.

Good luck...it just sucks to know something is up wiht your pup and not know what it is.

Maria

#45 donna frankland (uk)

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 07:31 AM

oh miz, you poor thing! we have everything crossed over here for you, boy and fynne. let me return the favour and say, if you need to talk, feel free to email me!
love
donna
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#46 Tiga's_mom

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 12:28 PM

Wow Miz, I'm in tears. Know that we are thinking about you and anxiously awaiting good news and a solution. Good luck. I really hope this gets figured out for you. It does make me worried about Tiga being on steriods too though. I want to take him off right away, he's not himself when he's on them at all. Is this a common after effect of seroids do you know Annette?
~Tammy~

#47 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 12:54 PM

In a book I read by a prominant behaviorist in this country he says that he sees regular cases of aggression in dogs that have been on corticosteriod therapy, most for allergy releif. He says that if a behavior problem is on the cusp of developing, that a time on corticosteroids could exacerbate the problem and if it was going to happen naturally, then it won't go away when med therapy stops.

Incidentally, he mentions some skin problems really have an underlying cause of low thyroid and this is why the steroids, low thyroid, and aggression can be related.

He recommends a complete endocrine testing and a spinal x-ray and if there is a physical problem that can be managed, then a remedial behavior modification program is likely to be successful.

This is only one guy's opinion and I'm going to crack yet another book today so we'll see if there is another theory or perhaps this theory will be supported by another reference.

#48 Miztiki

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 01:40 PM

The vet called and said everything came back normal except the BUN (something to do with kidneys) was fairly elevated, same as Fynne. She wants me to come talk to her the day after we see the behaviorist and we'll go from there.

Oh gosh, don't let your eyes get leaky on me Tammy! And certainly don't abruptly stop his steroid dose if he's on them now. That can cause some serious damage because the body stops making the natural hormones when they're on steroids, so stopping cold turkey can really hurt them.

I know from personal experience that steroids can alter your emotional state. They can make you laugh or cry or feel scared or angry for no reason.

Boyden seems his old self today. I hid his dinner in a tree then sat down under the shade tree while he looked for it. He found it and brought it over to where I was and ate it. Totally normal. In all other ways he's been normal today too. We did a little training and a little playing.

On another subject, my husband has claimed Fynne as his own, saying she is his dog and Boy is mine. He watched me do some training with both of them, then gave it a try himself. He sucks! :rolleyes: Boy minded him really well despite the commands being different. Fynne didn't have a clue what he was asking and when he finally commanded her properly, she still blew him off! I told him it's because she knows that his commands are a mere suggestion and not a command at all. Maybe it will finally sink in!

#49 muggs

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 01:56 PM

Ahh good to hear today was a good day. What an animal convert you've made of Mr. Tiki! Colby SAYS Loki is his and Gael is mine - yeah, right! That's just because Loki is the jobsite dog and Gael "works" with me. But I just got a new car today, so I think they both would rather ride with me!

I'm glad to hear Boy's inital tests look good, and hope you can get to the bottom of things this week.
Margaret
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Levi ('87 - '05)

#50 Miztiki

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 02:01 PM

Congrats on the new car!

I can't believe you are 40 years old. I just can't believe it. Are you sure? :rolleyes:

How's Gael doing?

#51 Tiga's_mom

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 02:29 PM

Really happy you and Boy are having a better day and that there's some good news. You can tell you really love them both and will stop at nothing to make sure they're both happy and healthy. Don't worry I don't intend to just stop the steroids that's for sure, I know it's way harder on the body that way, it just kind of puts another concern there. It was a really hard decision to put him back on them. I cry because I know how hard it is to worry and not know what's wrong, to feel so helpless when all you want is for them to feel better. That and I'm a pretty emotional person on the best of days. lol.

Thanks for the info Annette, I look forward to hearing the results of your next read.
~Tammy~

#52 muggs

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 02:56 PM

Thanks. Since I drive cars for 10 years+, a new one is always an exciting event, at least until it has dog hair everywhere.

Thanks for the 40 comment. If it wasn't for the whole body-going-down-hill kind of thing, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

Gael is doing well. She's really smart. Still have the leash issues when walking with many leashed dogs in sight. She LOVES going but never relaxes, so I have to be careful not to let her overheat. Colby is convinced it will only take about 6 more trips to trails/lake for her to relax. We'll see. (This is kind of interesting, when she sees horses or cows, she shakes.) I think if Loki takes over the alpha role maybe she wouldn't be so uptight. But I could be way off base. He's definitely challenging her lately, it's interesting to watch.
Margaret
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Levi ('87 - '05)

#53 Miztiki

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 03:08 PM

I meant that as a compliment! I hope you didn't take it as anything other than that. When you said you hit the big 4-0 I just couldn't believe it. I thought you were MUCH younger than that.

Do you think Loki is alpha enough to be above her? I didn't get to know either of them as well as I would have liked, but I thought she seemed pretty level-headed. I agree, it is interesting to watch.

#54 nancy

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 03:24 PM

Oh, all you children just be quiet in your playpens. I think you all look about 12. So there! Because, otherwise, I must be a lot older than 30. (Don't tell my kids that I'm now younger than they are.)

Michelle, the idea of family dynamics is sure a possibility. When my 3 kids were young (and at home), I never knew which two were going to be united against which one. Or if each would be battling both others. Especially when all three weeere teenagers at once. And you seem to have two "teenage" dogs. I swear I've seen that face you posted on each of my kids!

I sure wouldn't tease. If I did anything to sort ofcheck on attitudes, I'd be definitely overt.

I find it hard to believe this of Fergie's favorite, Boyden. He was so laid-back at the picnic. Even when that Jack Russel tormented him. So there has to be something special going on.

I had a friend, years ago, who was told to take steroids - cortisiods. She ended up using organic cleaners and drinking lemon juice instead, because of what the cortisoids did to her mind.

#55 muggs

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 03:42 PM

Oh I took it as a compliment - I meant turning 40 wouldn't bother me. Your eyes must have been blurred by driving so much. :rolleyes:

She is calm, happy, and serene until she's on leash walking trails/etc. Even when no dogs are around, she's on high alert and over excited. I have the feeling, she'd be fine off leash, like when she walked with Boyden and Tristan. She seemed kind of respectful of Boyden. Loki, I think, is a dominant pup (8 months old now), but she has always put it to him when he pushed it too much. But lately outside the chasing is reversing, and he is staring her down alot. I keep thinking if he takes over as he matures that when we walk/hike, she'll relax and let him lead?
Margaret
Gael and Loki
Levi ('87 - '05)

#56 kajarrel

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 04:01 PM

Here's information about corticosteroids from the Merck Veterinary manual. Here's another from Drs. Foster and Smith in "plain English."

Kim

#57 karrie

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 09:18 PM

[quote]Originally posted by ErinKate:
On one hand I agree with Julie in saying don't give him anything to grab, hence you needing to take away, but it really doesn't solve your problem. Heck, one day you may need to take away a sock, or something from him that he doesn't want to give up.
quote:
I averted my gaze, took a step back, cheerfully said something about going outside and both dogs went out while I put the meat in the fridge.
[/quote]You averted your gaze = submiting to HIM
took a step back = submiting to him
cheerfully said... = reward

Sorry Miz, IMO this was the last thing Boyden needed. I know it was scary, and your first fright, but after him biting, aauuugghhh!!! If he was mine, he would have eaten every tooth he showed me. If you can do it without scarying Fynne, yell in a big booming voice, "are you kidding me!!!" (kiss of death for my boys) Then tell him to drop it, back up, get out, load up, whatever gets him away from what he was guarding. Maybe for a bit you should send him out to pick up his bones. I think he is totally bulldozing you. He knows you won't do anything. The day you do, he will totally change his tune.
[/QUOTE]I agree. Don't ever let him see or sense your fear. In other words, mask it... he starts his funny buisness... stay calm and use a Mama voice say "NO or EXCUSE ME!or ANTT Get to your crate NOW!" Poppy just used this trick when dogs got ideas of being boss. He would put the leash on and it stayed on ~they had it dragging behind them. It worked on Bear and Duke.. but both these were black lab and black lab with retriever.

Hope the behaviorist can help. (((HUGS))) in mean time for you... BAD BOY!

#58 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 05:36 AM

Miz,

I'm taking time out to read Applied Dog Behavior and training VOl. 2 by Steven R Linday. It's a bit dry and is like boring text and so far regarding aggression all I've made out is that most studies conducted seem to contradict each other and the only thing that is generally agreed on (so far in reading) is how to classify aggression and that with Interspecies aggression (humans) it's generally a defensive effort to gain control of environment. So far there is no mention of aggression induced or aggravated by drugs and the only thing they site hormonally that worked really well was to give progestin as a testtosterone antagonist, dogs became calm (to lethargic?) and after a 3 month course many dogs retained their lack of aggression but some didn't and the practice of using progestin got much criticizim because there were alternate drugs available with less side effects apparently.

Based on my reading, everytime you backed off of Boy, he got a jolt of endorphins at his resulting win. This reinforces further (and more intense) displays of aggression. So you can't give him an inch and when you approach him for testing the way you did, you need to be prepared for any result so you can act accordingly without having to go back and think about it. This is not a criticizim, just a clinical type of assessment.

So once again, I ditto- ErinKate!

18 hours smoke free- concentrating is hard about now. Gonna do it this time- I can change my behavior if I can change my dogs. Thats my new mantra.

#59 Annette Carter & the Borderbratz

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 06:03 AM

Nutrition and aggression:

Generally it says that dogs fed high- protien diets decrease excitability and increase trainability. BUT
some evidence suggests that adjusting dietary protien levels may provide a viable means for influencing the behavioral thresholds of some forms of aggression.

Basically, excess protien in the blood significantly reduces the amount of tryptophan reaching the brain for the production of serotonin. Decreasing the protien intake, increasing carb intake, and adding the suppliment 5-HTP yielded a significant decrease in aggression scores.

(This might help! I know you can't really give him carbs but you can give him 5-HTP, available in health food stores)

Edited to add: this makes sense to me in that wild canids need to be geared toward aggression for survival so what they eat should support the hard wiring necessary for survival. I suppose in individual domesticated subjects the results could vary widely from little display of aggression to big displays - which is why we do not see raw fed dogs becoming dangerous as a whole- but this is just my musing.

#60 CoRayBee

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Posted 10 July 2005 - 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Annette & the Borderbratz:
Decreasing the protien intake, increasing carb intake, and adding the suppliment 5-HTP yielded a significant decrease in aggression scores.

Interesting reading (and I'm not being sarcastic, honest!)

Nicholas Dobson wrote a book about nine years ago titled "The Dog Who Loved Too Much." It ran through a few heartbreaking individual accounts of dogs' behavior changes, and most times his response was to reduce the protein in the dogs' diet and treat the undesirable behavior with medication (I believe his drug of choice was Prozac.) This is oversimplifying of course, but that's the gist of it.

Granted, this book was written in 1996 and the author is (was?) a behavioral pharmacology professor, but it would be interesting to see just what (if anything) has changed in this treatment regime.
Vincere vel mori



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