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Pedigrees - NZ/AU Show Lines in ABCA?


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#161 Liz P

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:34 AM

Sheepdogs (aka Border Collies), show Border Collies (old Aussie and NZ lines), Bearded Collies, Rough Collies and Smooth Collies all share a common heritage.

Sheepdogs with rough coats, smooth coats, bearded coats and everything in between continue to be bred for stock work. They are known by most people as Border Collies.

The other dogs have been artificially separated into different breeds and forever altered by the show ring.

This is a Bearded Collie. It is indeed a different breed than a sheepdog (aka Border Collie).

http://beardie.net/bcca/

These are bearded Collies like the Blue dog you are talking about.

http://www.gis.net/~...olorSmooth.html

#162 Donald McCaig

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 08:34 AM

Dear Doggers,

Ms. Liz wrote: "The other dogs have been artificially separated into different breeds and forever altered by the show ring."

Yes and no. In the early 19th century, before the railroads, different British regions may have had as many "collie" varieties (breeds) as sheep. These varieties had slightly different talents. Barbara Carpenter once told me that the Dalesman ( Forest of Dean) was a rougher noisy worker than the Border Collie and someone - I'm thinking it was John Wentz - told me that Bearded Collie crosses - like Polly Matzinger's James were better than Border Collies at controlling large flocks. There's pretty good evidence that the Kelpie and the McNab are varieies which went extinct in their homeland. The Australian Shepherd and English Shepherd may be regional or may be, like the Border Collie, an amalgam. The Smithfield Collie - found only in Tasmania - is probably a regional as is the Wicklow Collie.

The small, yellow, 19th century collie taxidermied at the Rothchild Natural History Museum at Tring resembles the photos I've seen of the Wicklow Collie.

Selection, whether natural or human inspired, discards more than it rewards. The Border Collie is blessed by an effective genetic test (the sheepdog trial) which rewards biddability, athleticism and the modified wolf behaviors which send him to the head of stock to gather them.

Other useful Collies, like the English Shepherd, cannot be tested nearly so well and selecting for usefulness is more difficult.

Donald McCaig

#163 Appalachia

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 11:05 AM

I am sorry, I am going to do what Liz said and take a breath. I do not want to be disliked by the community... Liz, you may be upset with me.. but our goals are the same. It seems we both want to keep the Border Collie what it was meant to be. Please forgive me... I know you can see some of my points. I am 28 years old and I think I have a better understanding of genetics than most people 28 years old, not to glorify myself. I want to spend my life preserving what so many people could destroy, ya know?

You are all very right, I do have a lot to learn, and I am willing to listen. I guess I know how easily years of work in breeding can be destroyed in an instant. I am very concerned for the future of the dogs.

I know I ain't no genius. But, I have my own vision, and alot of work to do with my dog (I only have 1 right now).I had to figure out genetics for myself, as you all can see, and I formed my own opinions about it, I guess. I have spent many years, reading and reading. I suppose I get upset cause so many people are discusted by line breeding. I know this is the way useful traits have been set and intensified, for centuries, so that there is consistency in the resulting offspring. Yet I also understand how outcrossing has been used. I guess I am adamant about tightly bred animals on specific useful genetics, so long as no problems arise. I spent 12 + years working on and showing dairy goats (Nubians) with my uncle. He is dying of throat cancer now....and the goats are so expensive. So, I am putting my effort toward my dog, because I,d like to field trail her. I have a lifetime of experience with dogs, my grandpa raised and hunted Walker Coonhounds, and English Setters.

I didn't know that all caps meant you were shouting, I don't even know how to quote someone like you guys do. Sorry for seeming obnoxious.

I have done alot of work with my dog, and she is wonderful.

Liz, If you could meet me and see what I've done with her, and I could talk to you and explain myself, you wouldn't think I shouldn't have pups. You would probably like me, as I would you. You know, one of the reasons I am going to have pups is because I don't have much money to spend on my hobby per se. I want several dogs to work on the cattle, and I don't have the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs, and I want good dogs! I am pretty sure my bitch is good, and I have found a very good male to breed her to. I am going to get her hips and eyes tested as well. The woman that owns the stud is letting me use him, and not charging me an arm and leg. I am going to have this litter for myself. The few pups I don't keep will be placed in working homes where they will be used and loved daily. And then I am going to spend all the time I can training those dogs for the field trials!

I really don't know how to make friends cause I've never had many, besides the dogs. So,please accept my apologies. I probably sound like a pathetic crybaby. I can only do so much to gain acceptance from my peers. And, I will never think it acceptable to breed Border Collies for anything but what they were designed for, a companion Worker.

#164 Sue R

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:38 PM

Appalachia - I'm not sure if you've taken the opportunity to read the "Read this first" at the top of the index page, but if you haven't, you might appreciate reading it as it explains a lot about the philosophy of these boards. And, how that philosophy relates to breeding.

A few points I would like to make - you have done a lot with your dog and feel she is a good dog, but what do you have to compare her with in terms of recognizing if she is breeding-quality material? Have you worked her on a variety of stock (different species of stock and/or different breeds/types of stock)? Have you worked her in a variety of locations/situations? Have you trialed her (this is not a necessity, but another way to evaluate a dog)? If you have trialed her, at what level and how successfully?

These are not criticisms of you at all - they are attempts to find out how you may have determined in your mind that she is breeding-worthy, and to see if your experiences with her are limited or expansive.

As for not having "the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs", have you considered the true costs of breeding your bitch (even without a stud fee, and I wonder about someone who doesn't charge a stud fee and the quality of their dog)? The costs of the genetic/structural testing you are looking at? The costs associated with pregnancy and whelping, and raising healthy pups? The costs that could arise if your bitch or pups have complicatons?

I'd be interested to know what you feel are "the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs". Quality, working-bred pups from well-proven parents are usually very reasonably priced - in the $500-700 range. Nicely started dogs can be purchased for $1500-2500. That sounds like a lot of money but consider this - when you purchase a started (partially trained dog of about 1 1/2 to 2 years of age, for instance) dog, you are buying a known entity.

It is a dog that has demonstrated that it can work to that level, takes training, and has potential to progress. If you have (or buy) a pup, it is always a gamble, no matter how well-bred (and even more so when you don't have the experience and background to make the "artful" decisions that good breeding requires). In a well-bred litter of eight, there might be several top-notch pups, several moderately-talented pups, and some duds - or any combination of the above (as you note, good line-breeding can up your chances for good pups but it can also up your chances for genetic issues).

So, add up the uncertainly of the real breeding value of your bitch; the uncertainly of the real breeding value of the dog (and, since I know nothing about him, I can't even hazard a guess - he could be a world-beater, but I don't know that and I wonder if you truly could know that); the uncertainty that no matter how good individually the stud and bitch may be, they may not be a good breeding combination; the costs of the testing that you plan to do; the costs associated with pregnancy, whelping, and raising pups; the uncertainty that any pups you produce will have the quality you are hoping for (or that any pups you choose from that litter will have the quality you are hoping for); the costs of raising those pups to an age where they can be actually trained (a pup can look like a topper but still not have what it takes to train up to be a useful dog) and evaluated; and the list goes on and on.

I'd give you the same advice I'd give anyone - put in the years learning about the dogs, the training, and the work; find a mentor to help guide you; get out for training, clinics, and trials to learn all you can; and someday, when you have experience under your belt, then consider breeding - if and when you have the dog(s) that deserve to pass their genetics on to the next generation.

Best wishes!
Sue Rayburn - Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult, but not the brightest firefly in the jar.

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#165 Kelliwic Border Collies

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:58 PM

I suppose I get upset cause so many people are discusted by line breeding.


Some breeders use this method quite regularly. Others feel that genetic diversity is extremely important.

You know, one of the reasons I am going to have pups is because I don't have much money to spend on my hobby per se. I want several dogs to work on the cattle, and I don't have the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs, and I want good dogs! I am pretty sure my bitch is good, and I have found a very good male to breed her to.


Have you even looked at the market for working Border Collies? Generally, breeders of well-bred stockdogs do not charge big bucks for pups, even pups out of top sires and dams. Logically, a trained dog would be more expensive than a pup, possibly even big bucks, depending on the degree to which the dog is trained or if it's got trialing success.

What things do you see in your bitch's working ability that makes you "pretty sure" she is good? What about the prospective stud makes him a very good male to breed to? Are you experienced enough to be able to evaluate this? I couldn't tell from your posts, but it sounds as though this is your first Border Collie, or at least the first one you've worked on livestock. If you don't have experience, do you have a mentor experienced in working stockdogs, who is in agreement with your assessments?

ETA: I see Sue posted similar questions as I was fiddling around composing and editing my post. :)

Megan Q.


#166 juliepoudrier

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:09 PM

Appalachia,
Sue has made some very good points, and I hope you will seriously think about what she said. Are you planning to keep all the pups from the litter you produce? What if none of them are good for working cattle? There are some very nice proven cattle working lines, and those pups can be found in the $400-500 range. If I wanted a pup for working cattle, I would look to folks who are already breeding useful/successful cattle working dogs and spend a lot of time learning before deciding to breed for myself.

Trust me, even if you you do all the right things (and I include actually proving the breeding prospect in this, along with appropriate health tests), there are absolutely no guarantees that you'll have good working pups or that some other genetic issue won't pop up. Been there....

J.

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#167 Liz P

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 01:15 PM

Donald, I realize that there was regional variation that created the "breeds" we see today. However, there was also the potential for the flow of genes between those populations, unhindered by kennel clubs touting purity. If a shepherd needed a mate for his "Bearded Collie" but the only suitable dog he could find was a "Border Collie," he wouldn't throw his arms up the air and say, "I can't do that! They would be mutts!" The shepherd would consider the working qualities of the parents and breed those two dogs together if he felt they would produce what he needed.

#168 Gloria Atwater

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 11:26 PM

.....I want several dogs to work on the cattle, and I don't have the big bucks that the breeders want for good dogs, and I want good dogs! I am pretty sure my bitch is good, and I have found a very good male to breed her to. I am going to get her hips and eyes tested as well.


Hello again, Appalachia ~

This forum can be a contentious and passionate place, ofttimes. As Sue said, there are various philosophies at play here of which people are quite passionate. Meanwhile though, your peace offering is well received, at least in my book. :)

As a side-note, though, I hope you are aware that, for the cost of getting your bitch's hips and elbows OFA certified and her eyes CEA DNA tested, you could nearly purchase two nice pups. Both procedures must also include your vet's time and costs, as well. Not trying to tell you what to do, just pointing out a financial reality, as I'm not sure you'd checked into the pricing. :)
Best regards,

~ Gloria
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