Stubborn puppy, frustrated owner - help!

[hkwm]

Hi all,

 

I've been searching through old topics and couldn't find anything that specifically addresses our current problems, but my apologies in advance if this post is redundant.

 

Laika is 4 months old now, and while she's made huge strides and we love her to death, this has been a pretty very frustrating week. Since I don't have any prior dog-training experience I keep making mistakes, and it has been two steps forward one step back the whole time we've had her (my fault, not hers). I'm pretty down, and any advice on the following issues would be really appreciated.

 

1) Laika does not seem to care about our approval. I've tried to be consistent in treating good behavior (even when she thinks we're not watching), and distracting bad behavior with things we do want her to do, but she will usually go back to the bad behavior once she's bored with the good one and ignore any rebukes, firm or gentle. How do we teach her that no means no?

 

2) This week she's started sporadically growling and lunging at our ankles when we're out on walks. I've tried determining what the trigger is and I honestly can't find one, but once she starts it's almost impossible to get her to stop. I've tried standing on her leash, saying "time out", and ignoring her until she calms down but she'll usually just gnaw on my foot or her harness and I can't get her to stop. Once she's settled down for a while, I'll reward and calmly say "okay" (our release word) and keep walking, but she'll be right back lunging and snapping. I've repeated this over and over but it doesn't seem to be working, so better ideas would be welcome. I've also tried to get her "back in her brain" by running through some commands, and she will usually obey the commands but then keep snapping. I've also tried tying her leash to a fence and physically removing myself if she started to growl or snap, but that didn't work either. It took us nearly 30 minutes to walk to a nearby field yesterday and by the time we got there I was so frustrated that I just plopped down in the grass and cried... and she immediately started biting me.

 

3) I thought that 4 months was too early to be teething, but she's definitely lost a couple teeth recently - is this abnormal?? I'm really worried that they've broken off from chewing the metal piece on her harness but I don't know for sure.

 

4) In addition to her walks (a short one in the morning and a longer adventure in the afternoon), I've been doing 5-minute clicker training sessions with her a few times a day. The problem is that she usually gets rowdy and frustrated because she doesn't know what I want, but if I try to lure her with a treat she'll snap or lunge for it, even though I stop and walk away every time she does so. She seems to be trying really hard to understand what I want her to do, but I'm not sure how to show her without luring. If she gets overly rowdy I will say "too bad" and crate her for a minute or two until she calms down before trying again, but she'll usually get would up again really quickly. How do you keep your puppies calm during clicker training? I've made sure to only treat her when she's being calm, and to crate her when she's too wound up, but it just doesn't seem to be sinking in. Am I not giving her enough activity? I want her to learn to entertain herself for most of the day, but I'm worried that I'm creating a neurotic dog.

 

5) Barking. She recently started barking whenever she hears people outside our home. Since this is "guard barking" I've been gently saying "enough" after the first bark and giving her a thank-you treat, or checking it out and assuring her everything's fine, but is there a way to get her to not do this at all? Also, when she barks for attention (or in her crate when we're trying to get her to calm down) I'm not sure what to do. Ignoring it seems like it will only allow her to self-reward and keep barking, so I've been saying "quiet" and then clicking for longer and longer periods of silence, but I'm concerned that this just teaches her to bark and then be quiet, instead of not barking at all.

 

 

Sorry for the long post. Most of the time she's really good and we get along famously, but for some reason this week has just been rough.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Ms. HKWM asks: "How do we teach her that no means no?"

 

Mean what you say.

 

If you are not getting satisfactory results from clicker training, there are other methods for training a dog that are no less humane and some argue, are more effective.

 

I've no doubt there are good trainers in Seattle. You'll find some of them at any upper level obedience competition.

 

 

Donald McCaig

[Gideon's girl]

Four months is exactly the right time for teething.

 

Don't ever treat her for barking if you don't want her to bark when she wants a treat. You can't have it both ways.

 

Train for only about 5 minutes at a time. If she can't handle 5 minutes cut back to 3 or 2 or 1. Always stop before she has. As she gets older she will be able to handle more, but not yet.

[Falon's Mom]

I am sure others will jump in and give better advice then I can. That being said here is what I did with my boy when he was a mean little butt with his nipping. EVERY time he would nip atme or my kids I would pick him up by his scruff, hand under his butt to support him, and put him in his kennel. If we were out on a walk, I still scruffed him, but kept his feet on the ground., once he stopped then I would let go and continue on our way. It only took a couple of weeks of that but he has not done it since.

 

4 months seems to be when they start loosing all their baby teeth. That is normal. She should be done loosing teeth at around 6 months.

 

For no to mean no I ended up doing lost of kennel time. I would also give him kongs stuffed with kibble and peanut butter to occupy him during the day when I needed to focus on other things.

 

Also a toy chest just for doggie toys that I would change out every few days would help keep him from being destructive. You might try some raw meaty bones for her to chew on while she is teething.

[hkwm]

Thanks for the responses!

Donald McCaig - Any elaboration on HOW to mean what I say (without switching dog trainers?)

 

I've been doing mostly positive reinforcement based training, but I'm not against (humane) corrections, so if you have any suggestions or resources I would be grateful!

Gideon's girl - Whew, that's a relief! The few things I could find said that 5-6 months would be the start of teething.

If I should avoid treating her for barking, should I ignore it? When I do this, it seems like she will just go on for-e-v-e-r, so I'm at a bit of a loss for how to proceed. I do treat her when she's calm and quiet, but I don't know how to react when she does bark since she doesn't seem to care if I say "no".

 

Falon's mom - Thank you, that is just the kind of advice I was looking for!

[Liz P]

You guys are a lot more patient and tolerant than I am!

[Sue R]

Double-whammy - teething and entering the teenage stage!

 

If the "kinder" methods of deterring your pup from nipping aren't working, then I'd advise your trying what Falon's Mom suggests. It's what I have used for pups that either don't take "no" for an answer or who actually find the "kind" methods to be encouragements for their bad behavior.

 

Take the pup by the scruff of her neck. Support the front end with your other hand as you lift the pup so her forefeet are off the ground/floor. Look in her face and calmly, quietly, and with a firm and deep voice say, "No." When the pup quits being tense and/or wiggly but relaxes in your hands, gently lower her front end to the floor and release the scruff. I have found that, with the several pups I've raised, I didn't have to do this very much before the idea that the behavior was unacceptable penetrated his hard little head.

 

Now, I have found that for more stubborn (or attitudinal) pups, you might have to lift the pup so that all four feet are off the floor (your second hand will be supporting the pup under rear of the chest, start of the belly). The one pup I had (Bute, who turned out to have the most loving nature once he got past the bratty stage) that required the all-four-feet treatment, would struggle and grumble and fuss. But, once he realized he was not getting his own way, he'd calm down and relax, and I'd let him go.

 

I met a lady with a pup she'd bought from an unsocialized situation (in a stall in a barn, with no interaction but food and water, when that happened). Her fingers were in shreds because she found herself unable (unwilling?) to make the correction match the offense, and so something more than the "kinder" methods and soft words to reprimand her pup.

 

One pup will respond to a simple, "Ouch!" Another may respond to your stopping all movement each time the unwanted behavior appears. And yet another simply needs more assertive, very direct and unmistakable corrections.

 

Best wishes dealing with this unwanted (and dangerous, particularly if your consider children or the elderly) behavior now.

 

PS - About the barking. I have a whiner. He doesn't get out of the crate unless he's been quiet for a few minutes. It's often a matter of who is more persistent - little children, pups, and dogs learn fast if they can wear you down or wear you out when they want something! Sounds like she's learned the routine - bark, sit, treat!

[hkwm]

Awesome, thanks Sue R, that's very helpful advice. I feel for your friend with the shredded fingers, although I'm not sure I quite have her tolerance :-p I'll try scruffing tonight if she's nippy.

 

Also, I know this probably sounds archaic, but what about spray bottles? Humane/not humane? Effective/not effective?

[Gideon's girl]

When mine bark a warning, I let them know that I heard, then I tell them "That's enough." They have learned through many different situations that "That's enough" means we are stopping now. If they are barking just to noise, I tell them that's enough. I never let them out while they are noising in their kennels. I use the opportunity to teach bark on command, then I move on to something else with training. Being obnoxious in the house brings on training or crating whichever I think is more merrited in the circumstances.

[stockdogranch]

I agree with Sue on the scruff thing, only I'm not as nice as she is (I *am* sometimes known as the Mean Lady). For a pup who really doesn't seem to understand that *this* bitch is the one in charge (I tend to have a house full of bitches), I grab them by the scruff, pick them high up in the air, stare them in the face and give them a "who in the f*#k do you think you are! (otherwise know as a come-to-Jesus meeting)). Then I set them back done on the ground quite firmly. They know I'm pissed, and that what they did was totally not acceptable.

 

There are a million ways you can get the message across--the message Donald gave about meaning what you say. The bottom line is--the pup needs to understand that you are the one who is in charge and calling the shots. You don't have to be mean or abuse the pup to make that clear, but the pup is obviously running the show here. It will only get worse.

 

I know there are lots of people on here now who are into the whole positive only thing, but honestly, if that's not working, then you need to try something different.

 

Do you have children? How do you let them know that you are the one making the decisons and calling the shots? How do you respond when they do something totally unappropriate?

 

Dogs don't have language the way we do, but they sure can read people and other animals. They know who's in charge and who is not. This pup clearly has your number. As I said before, you don't have to be mean, or abussive--the pup just needs to *know* that you mean what you say. It just comes off as a vibe, I guess. Border collies are not for the feint of heart. They are way too smart to be in a household with people that they sense are not as on top of things as they are.

 

I should have probably kept my mouth shut and just agreed with Liz. Sigh,

A

[Liz P]

I'm with Anna. My pups sometimes have those moments. They need to learn from an early age to take corrections.

[BCjetta]

Another suggestion for the growling and leg biting (I did the scruff and low NO and mine didn't do it for very long) would be to pick her up every time she goes to do that and just carry her for a bit so she's not getting to do what she wants. Once she's calm let her back down and repeat if she goes back for you. For 2 of my border collies a tightening of the leash and a loud low NO was enough to get the message across. With a friend's pup I had to scruff and be fairly intimidating for the message to get across to her (she stopped grabbing my legs but would still grab her owners and try to bite them if they bathed or brushed her, but let me do it no problem).

 

I look at what kind of corrections my old bitch would give. With some dogs, the evil eye or the subtle lift lip would get her point across to not pester her. With a friend's obnoxious aussie pup she had to bite and hold her face to get the message across to leave her alone. She didn't cause any puncture wounds but that particular dog needed a harsh correction to understand that Hannah did not want her in her face pestering her. Some are just more stubborn or hard than others.

[hkwm]

I should have probably kept my mouth shut and just agreed with Liz. Sigh

 

Ha ha no need! I appreciate all the help I can get!

 

I like positive reinforcement for most aspects of training, but Laika obviously doesn't respond to gentle admonitions so I'm fine scruffing if that gets the point across. I'm stern with her when she's bad, but I haven't had a puppy before (and no kids), so like you said she might be picking up on a vibe that I don't know 100% what I'm doing and taking advantage of it.

 

Thanks everyone so far for the input. I'll keep trying with her

[stockdogranch]

Ha! Liz--I remember when Raskle (who was named appropriately) was maybe 8 or 9 weeks old. We were working on not rushing out the front door. I call the dogs one at a time, with a "Riddle ONLY," or "Tikkle ONLY" so that they know who is allowed to go through. Raskle kept rushing the door, and I would close the door and at the same time use my leg to block her from getting through it. After a few times of that, she got seriously PISSED and grabbed my boot, trying to tear it up. She was very serious about it. She got the scruff lift with the come-to-Jesus, which resulted in a whimper from her. She knew who was in charge thereafter.

 

Her daughter, at maybe 13 or 14 weeks, was on the leash and we were walking toward the school sheep to have a quick little puppy work. I reached down to take off the leash to release her to go around them, and she was squirming to get loose. Well, that caused me to not be able to get the leash off right away. She got really pissed, and turned around to bite my hand, since that was what was impeding her from what she wanted. She, too, got the scruff lift and very stern voice. She stared straight into my eyes, never blinking or looking away, no whimper from her at all. I like 'em with a lot of attitude, but this one might really be a handful. She'll be 6 months tomorrow. Her name is Pistol :-)

A

[hkwm]

She stared straight into my eyes, never blinking or looking away, no whimper from her at all.

 

Sounds like Laika. I would say "good luck", but I think I need it more than you :-p

[Gloria Atwater]

You've already got plenty of good advice, so I'll just add a thought. When it comes to a pup as outgoing and roguish as yours sounds like, I don't think it's inhumane to occasionally whack a pup on the rump with a rolled up newspaper, or shake a can of pennies or plastic bottle of pebbles at them, when they're doing something that's really, REALLY not permissible.

Of course one doesn't want to terrorize a pup over minor infractions, or shatter his confidence with overpowering corrections. But occasionally there are times when a bit of corporal punishment is okay.

As for the "trigger" to her grabbing your ankles and shoes, it's simple: movement.. The trigger for almost all border collies, to one degree or another. Movement is fun and playing with it is self-rewarding. That's why BCs, if not managed properly, can end up chasing cars and bikes or obsessing over shadows or flipping out over laser dots. It's bred in them to key onto movement and a puppy is just engaging a natural impulse. It's therefore on us, the human, to govern their response and reactions to that impulse.

So, think on how the mama dog or a litter mate would react, if they got tired of being nipped and pounced on.To them, no means NO in plainest terms. You must do the same.

Used wisely, a firm but fair and well-timed correction is not a bad thing. It's not inhumane to step away from treat or clicker training, when it's clear that those methods aren't working. Frankly, I admire your restraint, because I'd have swatted her little butt long before she ever drove me to tears while walking.

Same goes for barking. Big no, remove from the situation, put on time out. No treat, no click, just a big NO. It sounds like she needs to learn what NO means. It has to have consequences of some sort.

Best of luck!

~ Gloria

[alligande]

I don't have the experience that those giving you the advice above have, but just want to give you some encouragement not to feel bad if you don't always use 100% positive methods. My own puppy was raised to be an agility dog and all his sports training, house training, general manners etc was positive, but sink your teeth into me you will learn that no means no. Realistically this might have happened 4 or 5 times.

[Liz P]

My current pup, 16 weeks old tomorrow, has only had one or two WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING corrections. They should not be used often, and only for major infractions like biting.

[Shetlander]

She stared straight into my eyes, never blinking or looking away, no whimper from her at all. I like 'em with a lot of attitude, but this one might really be a handful. She'll be 6 months tomorrow. Her name is Pistol :-)

Thereby proving my profound belief that we need to be very mindful of what we name our dogs! My Lhasa is named after a great Elmore Leonard character, Chili Palmer, who was a loan shark dreaming of becoming a movie producer. Very cool "hero", but my own Chili is a total gangster at heart so one of my rules is "Never name your dog after a criminal."

 

Quinn, despite his carefully chosen name, was still a terror at 4 months and pleasing me was very low on his long list of things to do. I wish I could be fully Positive with only limited time out punishments and I try to do that as much as possible, but I have limited skills and patience. Some puppies do great with that approch and others are such that that approach alone won't work well for me.

 

I raised Quinn to do agility so all our training was fun and games, we did lots of clicker and he had a great time learning. But he also did things like drive by nips on my legs and me yelping or removing attention meant nothing to him. One of my friends was horrified at what kind of puppy I had when she saw a few bruises on my shins (her Corgi puppy had never done that!). So my "scruffing" approach when he bit me was to yell, grab the flying puppy, who pretty much rolled himself, and then as he lay on the ground, I said very mean things to him in a very ugly voice. After a couple of those corrections, he decided biting me was a drag and never did it again.

 

And at 6 months, he finally decided I was a good thing to have around and pleasing me became more important to him. Almost overnight, he went from the worst puppy I ever owned to the best puppy ever and just a complete blast to live with.

 

Enjoy your little wild child. She'll grow up all too soon.

[stockdogranch]

Oh--I named her Pistol intentionally :-) I knew exactly what I was getting into. I like them with a TON of attitude. These are top working cowdogs, and they need that attitude for work. They just need to learn when they are young that they don't need to use the 'tude on *me* :-)

A

 

ETA: I had one some years back that I named Trubble. She was, indeed, but was also one of the nicest working dogs I've had.

[Tommy Coyote]

My puppy just hit four months and he seemed to turn into a little hellion over nite. Fortunately, I have two adult dogs that keep him in line.

[Liz P]

Uh, Rowan has been a hellion from the day she came home!

 

PS, let her see sheep today. No fear. I can't imagine the chaos that would have ensued if I had let her off the long line.

[mum24dog]

My current pup, 16 weeks old tomorrow, has only had one or two WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING corrections. They should not be used often, and only for major infractions like biting.

 

This I agree with. Hazel bit me once by accident as a youngster - never again, and I didn't have to touch her.

 

If you correct or punish a child or a dog too often you waste one of the tools available for when they do something really bad or dangerous.

[mum24dog]

Also, I know this probably sounds archaic, but what about spray bottles? Humane/not humane? Effective/not effective?

 

Without knowing your dog or your skill in timing and observation I would say no, don't do it. Too much risk of getting behaviour you don't want if you get it wrong.

[Beach BCs]

The naming thing...I purposely gave my youngest a nice sweet name: Faith. It didn't work. She is so full of herself, has way more attitude than what is healthy, stubborn with an overload of sass. It's a good thing I like them that way! LOL!

 

(She really is a good girl...like when she's asleep.)