New here - Just got a dog agressive Border Collie - Please help

[Weeza]

Hello everyone. First time poster here. I have had dogs all my life and know a fair amount about them but have found myself in a situation Im not familiar with.

 

We have a 1 & 1/2 year old Boxer mix and a 5 month old Great Pyr. Our dogs are fixed - we do not breed. The Boxer mix is a pet and the Pyr is for livestock.

 

Members of my family just HAD to have a Border Collie pup. They had one years ago who really was the perfect dog. He lived 15 years. I tried to talk them out of it, but to no avail. They no longer have livestock and their lifestyle has changed so that they do not need a dog. They are not home very much.

 

In November they got a BC pup. He was about 7 weeks old. He was kept in the house for the first few days or week then put outside. Since he was use to being in the house, he kept coming to the door. The man doesn't like dogs on the porch so it was a constant battle of screaming at the pup and chasing him with a broom.

 

After about a month of that, he was put on a chain several hundred feet from the house and just left there. He gets fed and watered but thats it. He gets bored and chews things up and of course, the man gets mad. I've explained that this breed of dog needs stimulation and he is chewing stuff up out of boredom, but he won't listen to me.

 

A few weeks ago a stray pup came to the mans house and the BC pup tore into it. He all but killed it, and it had to be put down. The BC has never even attempted to bite a human to my knowledge, its just other dogs.

 

I wanted to bring the BC here and try to work with him. He's never been socialized with other animals. The woman agreed but the man did not.

 

Today we went to feed the BC and he was tied out in the woods. We feed the pup when they are gone. Today.....we got the pup and brought him home. I know I'll have to give him back, but am just hoping I can keep him long enough to make SOME kind of a difference.

 

I knew introducing him to our dogs would be a problem because he hadn't been socialized. Well....its a nightmare. Our dogs are not agressive at all, but today a different side of the Boxer mix came out.

 

The BC pup growls, shows his teeth, snaps and lunges at the Boxer mix. Both are male and refuse to back down. We had our dogs restrained when we introduced the BC and we also had the BC on a good leash so we could control him as well.

 

As far as the Pry, the BC dominates her and she cowers down to him while he barks and snaps at her. Not too bad, given what I have seen.

 

BUT, the male dog. If let loose, one of them would kill the other. I'm really confused because I've never known BC's to be this way, but I've only been around the one they had for 15 years.

 

This pup is the result of a BYB and I'm sure he was bred to make a buck and not for temperament or anything.

 

My question is......with a trainer and behaviorist out of the question (financial reasons), what if anything, is the best thing we can do with this dog? He;s about 5-6 months old....is it too late? He is very loving of people, just other dogs.

 

We have not introduced him to the livestock yet and do not plan to for some time.

 

Should we just let them fight it out and establish dominance?

 

They have agreed to let us get him neutered....so off he goes this week. And, if we can help this dog, they may let us keep him. We could use a herding dog with our livestock if we could figure out how to work with him.

 

If it makes a difference, our male dog does not show any agression towards the BC until the BC starts.

 

Right now they are restrained....within sight of each other but cannot get to each other and we are keeping a close eye.

 

Even if we don't kep the BC, something has to be done with him and I KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt that his owners (my family) will not give him away or take him to a rescue. He will be shot if he continues this behavior. Unfortuanately, that is just standard protocol for animals there. Sad but true.....I'm just trying to give you the real situation Im dealing with. I know Im the only hope for this pup and Im at a loss on how to begin.

 

If we could get past the dog/dog agression he has towards other dogs I think we'd be ok from there. The little pup is just starving for human affection. We are giving him that, but that doesn't help with the other dogs.

 

I sincerely appreciate any help.

[Rhborder]

Hello, what a situation, I'm glad they let you have hime neutered,I'm new hear myself, but I hope I can be of some assistance, first of all You need to have complete controll over the over the dogs(the dominant one, I would not let them fight it out, if it goes beyond a few growls it must be interrupted, in this case I would Interrupt at the first signs of the aggression, either by making some sort of noise, banging something against something ect. It's obvious there is a real power struggle between the two so you are going to have to step up and be the boss, make rules, and set limits, you your self are going to have to set the mood by being calm, self-controlled, and cool headed. If the Border starts something, do not panic, just, using commen sence, stop him.Try getting their attention off each other and on to something else. If for any reason you cannot supervise them, thenkepp them thoughroly seperated, Hopefully some of these more experienced people can give you some better advice, just don't give up on him

[Miztiki]

Hi, and welcome to the boards!

 

Five months is not too late. My Fynne was 2 1/2 when I got her. She was not socialized or trained or anything, just tossed in the back yard where she went a bit nuts. She's very dog aggressive and pushy/bossy/demanding with humans, but she's respectful and submissive to humans also.

 

The first 3 1/2 weeks she had to be kept totally seperated from my male. My male (Boy) is what the behavoirist called a good "teacher dog". He's very confident and ranks above most all dogs, but he's easy going, tolerant, and reacts very well to other dogs. He knows when to turn his head and signal to a fearful dog that he's no threat, and he also knows how to give an effective correction.

 

The first 3 1/2 weeks Fynne was SO stressed by his mere presence that there was no progress. If she even heard him in the other room then she would go nuts.

 

Then we had a breakthrough. We have 3 fenced in acres and I took the dogs outside, Fynne on leash. Boy was a good distance away but Fynne went nuts from seeing him and raked my foot with her claws. I lost my grip on the leash and she went running after him, aggression all the way.

 

They ran and ran and ran and I saw her expression and body posture change. Her tail and ears relaxed and she no longer wanted to do him harm.

 

From that day forward there was a HUGE change. Boy apparently realized that her fear was mostly gone so if she got snarky with him he would pin her down until she submitted. He never hurt her but he did establish his dominance after that long run (over a short period of time). There were a total of four major corrections from him (she's a bit thick) and a little posturing now and then. Now he needs only give her a look and she will submit to him and lick his chin.

 

I'm telling you all of this in case you can apply any of it to your situation. If your Boxer is a benevolent leader dog like my Boy and if the BC is simply exhibiting aggression due to lack of socialization, and if the Boxer is strong enough to physically overpower the BC, and if, and if...

 

I can't really tell you how to fix the problem you're facing. I can only share what happened here and offer advice here and there.

 

I would NOT let the BC intimidate your Pyr pup. Your Pyr is a baby and at an impressionable age. Protect him.

 

The age of the BC pup is on your side. Is it safe to assume that your Boxer is physically capable of overpowering him? It's possible that he could teach the BC pup like Boy did with Fynne, but again, the BC pup basically killed another dog and I don't know how confident your Boxer is.

 

You really need professional help for the situation you're facing. I'm sorry I can't help you more.

[Weeza]

Thank you both for your replies. Currently the dogs are separated.

 

Yes, the boxer is very much able to overpower the BC and he is a good leader dog. The boxer has never been dog agressive. We got the Pyr about 2 months ago and he took to her like a duck to water. Never any problems with either of them....they play like babies.

 

We do have plenty of land where we could try what you did eventually. I just got off the phone with the BC's owner and he agreed we could have the pup, but that he's afraid for our kids because of how agressive the BC is (but he has never shown agression to people yet). I offered to bring the BC back in a few weeks and he said "keep him, I don't want him".

 

I just can't put into words how bad I want to turn this dog around. My husband is actually the one who works with them because he is physically stronger than me and can handle them.

 

This evening, after posting my first post, we went out to the yard with both dogs on a leash. Hubby had them both. The BOxer does in fact turn his head and pays the BC no attention until the BC starts barking and snapping. It was a good 2 hours of battle and it may have been the wrong thing to do but we were trying to let both dogs see that we wanted to interact with BOTH of them.

 

There was one point where the BC and the boxer sniffed noses for about 10 seconds with no growling, no teeth showing, or anything.

 

What I did learn is that the BC feels VERY intimidated, probably because of how he has been treated. If the dogs were separate the BC was pretty much ok (about 5 feet apart), but once the boxer calmly walked towards him - or even looked at him - the BC went nuts.

 

The Pyr walked around and paid no attention to either dog during this. By the end of the evening the BC had calmed down considerably with the Pyr but thats prob because she is a female and she had already cowered down to him earlier.

 

Another fear I have is that our Boxer may pick up on some bad behavior from this BC. The only trouble we've ever had from the boxer is chasing fowl (chickens, ducks, etc). He's never tasted them, but we cannot leave him alone around them. We just keep our fowl in a coop to prevent any disaster.

 

Our boxer has been introduced to several other dogs and never once showed aggression. He'll stand hair on his back and sniff the new dog....but never anything to make us concerned...just normal dog behavior.

 

I am very relieved to hear that the BC's age is still within working ability. I was very concerned about that. He just seems so mean, so vicious, I wondered if he was too far gone.

 

I told my husband.....it took him 5 months to become this way and its probably gonna take 5 months to change.

 

I like the idea of just letting the dogs see each other for a few weeks. I think we'll start with that. They can also witness un interacting with each dog and maybe will come to learn that they are both part of the pack here.

 

I realize no one can give good, sound advice without actually seeing the situation, but I'll tell ya.....it sure does help to hear your experiences. It gives me something to try....it gives me hope.

 

Thank you so much....and I welcome to hear more board members experiences and suggestions.

[Kat's Dogs]

I would say the same thing that Miz already did so I am not going to add much.

 

Getting to a behaviorist would be best but it doesn't look like that will happen. Could YOU talk to one and learn what to do then help the pup? That would really help a lot - if it could happen......

 

BCs are not usually like this so I think that this pup has a good chance of turning around. Good luck to the pup - and yourself. It is never to late (and not at all to late for a pup that young!). I hope it all turns out OK.

[Miztiki]

If I could go back and do things over then I would not have kept them seperated for 3 1/2 weeks. No progress was made during that time.

 

Since you have the land and a husband to help, consider this:

 

Send the BC out to run, run, run until he's exhausted.

 

Then each of you pick a dog, leash him up, and walk briskly side by side. Perhaps walk so that your husband is between the dogs since he's stronger.

 

Take up all the slack in both leashes and have the dogs walk right up against you with no room to move in any direction, especially the BC. Don't let the dogs, especially the BC, focus on eachother. Just walk forward briskly.

 

This was suggested to me when we brought Fynne home but I can't control both dogs at once.

 

Keep walking and demanding that the dogs focus on the walk and not eachother. Watch their body language. You'll want to see them both completely relaxed and walking with no tension.

 

After they've walked with no tension for a little while then you might risk letting them say hello to eachother. I would let the BC drag his leash so that you can grab it for a correction or pull him off if necessary.

 

There's some risk here and you'd have to read your dogs closely and know your Boxer well enough to guess what he would do.

 

The BC is likely just afraid since he's not socialized. Any time fear manifests itself as aggression then there must be an element of dominance involved also. What I mean is that some dogs can be very, very fearful and never so much as growl. Those are not dominant dogs. The more display of aggression, the higher the level of dominance that dog has.

 

I haven't seen the BC so can't say to what extent fear is playing a factor, but if he hasn't been socialized then he would almost certainly be afraid of dogs since he doesn't understand the language.

 

It's a shame there are people in the world who treat dogs the way those people treated the BC. It's a blessing that there are people like you who care enough to give them a better life.

 

I'll add a few pics of Fynne and Boy in the beginning for you to look at...

[Kitch]

There have been similar situations discussed here before - if you do a search on the boards for aggression or fear aggression you should find some threads with useful info in addition to the good advice given here so far.

 

Also, I believe Patricia McConnell (a behaviorist) has a book(s) dealing with this topic: I think it is called Feisty Fido and another dealing with fear called The Cautios Canine.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have any experiece in dealing with this myself, so I can't offer any hands on advice.

 

Good luck and thanks for doing this...

 

Kerry

[Eileen Stein]

I've had good luck doing basically what Miztiki suggests -- two people walking the dogs together on leashes. Rather than keeping the leashes taut all the time, we managed the space between them by keeping the people far enough apart that the dogs couldn't reach each other, but still walking forward parallel to each other. There's something about dogs moving forward in the same direction, checking out sights and smells, that causes them to begin to feel themselves to be part of the same pack, I think, because that's how a dog pack behaves. You can drift closer together while you walk if the dogs seem relaxed, and move farther apart if tension develops, but keep moving forward roughly parallel. Their first sign of them feeling easy with each other may be when they're both sniffing the same tree trunk or clump of grass.

 

Good luck. I agree that it's likely this dog is young enough to be turned around.

[Miztiki]

Here's Fynne before the breakthrogh.

 

 

The next two are also before the breakthrough. She was not as bad outside as she was in the house, possibly because she didn't feel so cornered?

 

Here she is on a long lead getting snarky with Boy. This was among her least aggressive interactions with him. (edit: I should rephrase that. When there is distance between her and a dog then she becomes dramatic about her display of aggression, but tones it way down when close to a dog, and runs if one calls her bluff.)

 

 

She's not near as bold and sure of herself up close but puts on one hell of an aggressive show when there is distance between her and a dog.

 

Notice the changes in the body posture of both in the second picture.

 

 

In the first picture Boy's tail is relaxed, not tucked between his legs. His body is leaning backward, a way of trying to give her space and show he's not a threat, yet he's facing her on, not backing away. (His ear was accidentally flipped over in the pic.)

 

In the second picture he is still standing there. If he was afraid then he would have taken this opportunity to leave the area. He's turning his head to try and calm the situation.

 

Fynne's posture changed too. Her tail position changed when I approached, and she lifted her paw and showed deference to me.

 

And this last picture was taken within a few days of the breakthrough.

 

 

Everyone is happy!

 

I don't know if you can see it, but there's a green "tab" attached to her collar, in case I needed to grab her or pull her off. Within a few days I realized that it wasn't necessary. All was well between the two of them.

 

She continued to be a bit snarky in the house for a couple days or so but I got onto her for it and supported Boy. It only lasted for a couple days. Since then they get along better than I thought it would be possible for two dogs to get along!

[Black Watch Debatable]

(Weeza, I sent you a PM.)

 

Anyone here remember the post with numbered steps for introducing a foster to a resident dog?

 

I couldn't find it in a (fairly extensive) search---it may have been deleted by the OP.

 

With two male dogs, I'd especially recommend taking it slooooow, and as one of my favorite rescue experts says,

Make sure [new dog]is dead tired from a marathon exercise session before finally being able to meet [resident dog] off leash. Then keep that first session(s) short and end it on a positive if at all possible.

Congratulations on the new pup!

[Kitch]

I think you mean this one by Erin (MaggieDog:

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...t=010176#000001

[Black Watch Debatable]

Kitch, that's it! Thank you!

 

After all is said and done, the time line really depends on your own dogs. I've been extraordinarily lucky with mine---which is a good thing, since I'm not sure I'd have the patience for lengthy introductions

 

Here's a recent photo of the lovebirds: Sneak, my male pit bull, and our newest family member, border collie Luna. They were loose (in the house) together minutes after being introduced for the first time this past January. (Apologies for the cell phone photo )

 

[Weeza]

Oh wow! You all are just great. Miz, your dogs are absolutely beautiful! It was a great idea to take those photos of their body language....it shows people like me what to look for.

 

Kitch and Black Watch, thanks for that link....some really good info there. Sneak and Luna remind me of our boxer and pyr....they play like that. I'm gonna search for those books on eBay or Amazon...bet I can find them at a good price there.

 

Today we plan to spend several hours with the dogs to see what we can accomplish. I'm afraid there is a fine line between not doing enough and doing too much but hopefully we'll find it.

 

I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate the helpfulness from you all. I am not the perfect dog owner, but am as close to perfect as my knowledge allows me to be. The more I learn, the better I can be.

 

I will post some updates today to let you all know how things are going.

 

Ironically, we had discussed getting a BC on into the future. I wanted to take some time to research a good breeder and get to know them first. I know how important it is to stay away from those who don't take the time to breed for the important things like working ability and temperament. We never dreamed we'd end up with a dog like this one, but I suppose if we can get this to work out......in the end he'll be more appreciative of us and we'll be more appreciative of him because of what we will have all been through together.

 

Funny how life works......

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I just read Patricia mcconnell the other end of the leash and while it didnt have tons of direct info it was enlightening. She says that even by the pic of flynn she was scared agressive it has something to do with mouth position. She says a dog with forward lips will always bite. I wish I could see a pic off forward lips but, I think it has to do with not drawing back the cheek muscles to bare the back teeth.

 

She also talked extensively about dogs like deliliah who gave no direct cues she went from 0 to kill in 10 sec. she had no bite inhibition either. After the fact mom finally admitted how many people she bit in the 9 months she had her.

 

OP I wish you well I hear great things can come out of proper retraining.

 

Oh and I forgot to add she also did give advice that to act like you expect them to get along and never hold your breath if you think a fight will ensue the dog pick up on that sound and it will encourage it.

[kelpiegirl]

Here's my 2 cents. I have had a Boxer, and have had strange dogs in the house. Boxers are very protective of their property, and family. Since this bc pup is relatively young, you need to ensure that the present Boxer mix is still treated that he is on the same level as before. Also, make sure you exercize the BC pup quite a bit, as I believe he will need some serious decompression time- given his past life. Then, slowly allow them to spend time together, each on a leash each with a person. Don't let them fight it out, you could either solve it, or ingrain the hate forever. The pic of Fynne shows a dog who is fear aggressive. The BC you depict (having almost killed another dog), may be fearful, or dominant. But, in terms of maintenance, you need to ensure that your household is NOT turned upside down, and you can do that by ensuring lots of training into this BC, and time with the other dog while supervised. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security if they do get along- I have done this with disasterous results. Take some time, and I believe you will be succesful- if you take baby steps

Julie

[Rhborder]

THere are a lot of good books out there on Aggresive dogs, If you do any clicker training, there is one called Click For Calm, I haven't read it, I do clicker train myself, but not sure about clicker training a dog to not be aggressive, but it might help

[Kitch]

Dally's Mom - (and anyone else interested) Patricia McConnell has a video that I think you might be interested in. I have pasted the info below - it shows various postures of dogs. I learned a lot from it.

 

You are still going to the Pam Dennison seminar, right? If I can figure out how before then, I will burn you a copy of the dvd.

 

 

For general info, etc do a search on "Recommended books/videos" or just "Recommended Books" and you can find a list of resources board members recommend.

----

Reading Between the Lines -Patricia McConnell : ~3 hours. This video is a recording of a lecture* she gave to animal control officers so it focuses on aggression more than anything else, but it is fascinating none the less. She goes over the many different signs a dog can give off to reveal his/her state of mine and what each behavior indicates. She talks about a dog?s eyes going ?hard? and how it is hard to pinpoint exactly what about the expression changes when the eyes go hard, but that you know it when you see it (I can certainly attest to that!)

 

She shows slides, pictures and videos. While many of us are familiar with the various facial expressions, tail wags, etc it is amazing how much can be revealed in a second and how many behaviors we can miss. I spent much of the time rewinding the DVD to try to pick up on everything. A lot of info is packed into the seminar. She also brings up one of her dogs and some other practice dogs to illustrate points.

[KJ]

I went the route of a behaviourist with an Aussie that was 3yo, which is costly but so so worth every dime. Really. BUT please post here first if you decide to go that route . Seems like calling yourself a "behaviorist" is in vogue and so is "aggression specialist". These are not regulated fields so anybody can call themselves one and send you down a very wrong path. IF they have initials behind their name it could just be an association that you join or even created yourself! (Yes, I was ignorantly roped into a session with a loony tunes 'behaviourist' my first time)

 

While I am still learning, 5-6 months is so young, I'm certain there's hope. There are many on this board who are so helpful and give great advice or they can direct you in the right direction. It does take consistancy and dedication but doesn't sound like that part will be a problem! Sounds like the new pup found a perfect home to me. Please keep us updated.

Kim

[KJ]

Who is going to the Pam Dennison workshop? Dally's mom? I had considered that so I am quite curious.

thanks

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

You are still going to the Pam Dennison seminar, right? If I can figure out how before then, I will burn you a copy of the dvd.

 

 

Yes I'm still going so is my mom I cant wait. I love to learn stuff I would love to see that dvd too.

 

It will be fun to meet other bc owners. We will also go to the agility match in May if the trip is easy.

[Miztiki]

Hubby took several pictures of Fynne that particular day and I've referred to them a million times while learning about canine behavior.

 

Here are several, taken at the same time, that show changes in her facial expression including eyes, whiskers, lips, ears, brow ridge, etc. Her eyes are fairly "hard" in these pics, to varying degrees.

 

 

The same picture, zoomed in on her face:

 

 

Here is a normal picture of her for comparison. Notice the eyebrows, and how the back of the lips are relaxed and hanging.

 

 

 

This close-up came out like this. I didn't zoom in. Her eyes are fairly hard in this one.

 

 

Compare those to this last one. She's not being aggressive at all here. I told her to "speak" and so she is. Her eyes are soft here.

 

 

None of these pics are extreme examples of a dog's eyes going hard but there are certainly differences in the eyes.

 

(I love this kind of stuff, can you tell? )

[Weeza]

I'm going to upload some video of this BC....and how he acts when he see's the boxer/lab mix. I'll try to get on either tonight or tomorrow. That will give a little better picture of what we are dealing with here.....

 

We went grocery shopping this AM and came home to Ivan (the boxer/lab) who had broken his chain.....this is not uncommon for him. He is an inside/outside dog but we do tie him out when we leave the house so we wont come home and find out bed shredded to pieces...lol.

 

Anyway, he was just running and playing in the yard....not really paying the BC any attention.....but of course the BC was barking non stop, growling and going nuts. When we went to get Ivan to bring him in, the BC jumped at him and nipped him....hubby separated them quickly and all is calm now.....but WOW....this little BC packs a punch!!

 

Keeping my head up though......there is hope!

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

If you are speaking of a commercially available, copyrighted DVD, please don't do this. If you're unconcerned with the legal and moral rights that would be infringed, at least please don't use these Boards to offer this or to make your arrangements. Thank you.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

If you are speaking of a commercially available, copyrighted DVD, please don't do this.

 

Dont worry Eileen I was going to ask to borrow it mail it back and offer dal as collateral.lol I'd offer my first born son but, I'm sure she wouldnt consider that a great deal.