I think I deserve an apology

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I know I came here all in love with my new Border collie pup Saying he was well bred and came from a stong herding background but, at least for now he isnt a strong herder.

 

I know I said I trusted the breeders word and had a great feeling that she was telling me the truth and felt that sending Dal home on a trial without payment really said something for her.

 

Well I sat down last night and Googled all the dogs on Dally's pedigree I See She didnt lie and he is as well bred as she told me and I am very comfortable with the way Bonnie raises her dogs they live in the house, work and are well socialized. I will proudly get another pup from her.

 

I saw People painting her as a BRB who chained her dogs to a muddy coop and bred them over and over and that they were no better than mutts.

 

I'm having trouble getting his pedigree uploaded to the web but, anyone who wishes to email me I'll be glad to send it along. I see Plenty of titles in Herding in his backround and in people who share his backround to make me really happy along with finding winners in other venues.

 

I also think it's shameful to see Sarah Jumped on About her puppy she had a real tragedy in her life and while rescuing may be the PC thing to do It isnt the only thing.

 

vent over

 

I edited this to add that I think there are alot of nice friendly helpful people here that I love stopping by but, this had to be said.

[Shetlander]

Originally posted by dallys mom:

I while rescuing may be the PC thing to do It isnt the only thing.

Hi, Sheryl. With all the posting that goes on, I think I've missed where people were putting down Dally's breeder or giving Sarah a hard time about her puppy. Was that somewhere up in the working stockdogs section?

 

I know what you mean about the rescue or puppy choice. When I was looking for a BC, I checked out Rescue but decided with all the things I was looking for, a very young puppy was the route I needed to go. A large part of that dealt with the needs of my other two dogs. Now for my next BC (way down the line), I'm heavily leaning towards Rescue. I see so many wonderful dogs in need of a home.

 

I've had rescues in the past. Two were fantastic. The other two had huge aggression problems. My only concern is even the 2 fantastic ones would nip me in certain situations and one of them had little in the way of bite inhibition. That does give me pause because I train my puppies how to control their bites so I never worry about being nailed by them even if I inadvertently hurt them.

 

Anyway, sorry you've had some bad experiences on the boards. Dally sounds wonderful. I'm pretty nuts over my boy, Quinn as well. Hope you keep posting!

[juliepoudrier]

Sheryl,

Most people here don't advocate rescue over everything else just because it's PC. I have stated numerous times on these boards that I would not get a working prospect from rescue (although I own several rescues), so perhaps at least in this regard you should also consider not painting people with a broad brush. I do advocate buying puppies from breeders who are breeding for working ability and not for the experience of it or whatever other excuse folks come up with (as in Sarah's post).

 

I was one of the people that questioned you about Dally's breeder because I was leery of breeding white factored to white factored. I stand by that, and I'm sorry if you consider it a personal insult or an insult to your breeder. I personally think it's a legitimate concern. I think you are exaggerating when you state that people called Dally's sire and dam no better than mutts. I certainly don't remember anyone saying that. Nor do I remember anyone putting Dally down.

 

The fact that a particular dog has great ones in its pedigree doesn't automatically make the dog well bred, nor does it make the breeder reputable. Here's the web site of a breeder that I think anyone would consider a puppy mill (God, I hope I'm not bringing her business by posting this). Look at the names of the dogs she's breeding from. Would you call her a good breeder and the pups well bred? Would you get a pup from her and then be upset with the people here if they then pointed out that in their opinion she wasn't a good breeder?

 

http://www.wildrosebordercollies.com/puppiesforsale.html

 

There are lots of other "breeders" out there just like this woman, on both a much larger and a much smaller scale. Obtaining the great bloodlines is not difficult, and breeding from them is even easier.

 

As for the responses to Sarah, would you rather the folks on these boards be complete hypocrites? How can we say over and over again that breeding because you want one "just like mom" or "so the kids can have the experience" is just plain wrong and then turn around and say to Sarah that the breeder of the pup she wants is acceptable, because we all like Sarah and wish her well? While you may not agree with the folks who have said as much on that thread, I think you can at least give them credit for consistency of thought/belief, and I for one applaud that. I can't stand hypocrisy.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

"Obtaining the great bloodlines is not difficult, and breeding from them is even easier."

 

Noone is disagreeing with that but, I think there gets to be what looks like a mob mentality.

 

As for the colors I dont even think Bonnie would disagree. I've never flat out asked but, I think it was an accident they are her personal dogs and he was very young. She flat out told me Dal could only go to a special place.

 

She invested time in training him properly to walk on a leash good recall. She would have kept him forever and aside from the color on his nose there isnt anything wrong with him and he's neutered.

 

There are probably 20 working bc's on that farm and like I said only one planned and already spoken for litter.

 

I think people get tired of seeing dogs mistreated misbred and rehomed because of problems that they in general paint everyone with the same brush in posting.

[J.E.S]

Noone is disagreeing with that but, I think there gets to be what looks like a mob mentality.

There is no "mob mentality". It is just the same thoughts from a lot of the people. I've noticed the tendency for people to say "mob mentality" or ganging up or whatever when they aren't hearing what they want to hear. The people here are saying the same thing over and over but it seems there are always some who want to bend the rules and have it be ok for them.

[Caroline]

If this board doesn't stand up for the working border collie, who will? Someone has to take a stand, somewhere, or it is all downhill from there. That is the "big" picture. Yes there are wonderful pups, beautiful pups, all over. But those wonderful pups could also come from working breeders that are true to breeding for "the work" and not elsewhere. No one condemns an individual person or dog, just asking people to think about it. As a group, people can make a difference. Does it matter in the big picture where Dally came from? Does it matter in the big picture if Sarah gets the pup? No. But these all add up and eventually it does make a difference. I got a pup 14 years ago from a BYB, do I love him? Hell yes he is my heart and soul. I wanted to breed him at 1 year but thank goodness a friend explained why not to do that and I listened. I neutered him. Would I get another dog from that breeder? Hell no! She has her pups in the house, they appear happy and socialized. She doesn't select for stockwork. Period. End of story. Someone has to look out for the breed.

Caroline

[Katelynn & Gang]

Sheryl,

 

I'd love to see Dally's pedigree. Could you please email it to LoveLotzKate@aol.com

 

After seeing so many amazing dogs in Dally's pedigree, I know how you feel. Really, I do. I sit back looking at dogs online from outstanding, amazing, just to die for pedigrees that I'd NEVER in my life buy a puppy from. Some are just bred because; some are bred for reason other then "herding," whatever that reason might be.

 

It is not a question of ?Where will that dog end up?? or ?I think it is meant to be!? or even ?Wow, this dog has a really nice pedigree!?

 

It IS a question of ?Will I be beneficial, as a buyer and billboard, to the breed and its future by buying and supporting this sort of breeder??

 

Katelynn

[Meg's mum]

I've learned alot on these boards, things I would not have undertstood had I not toughed it out and stayed here. How many do given the 'way' that people on this board feel that they have to approach the issue of 'taking a stand'.

 

The problem is not the stand, Caroline and others, and frankly its not the heartfelt vehemence and sometimes downright rudness - although that is the point at which you have lost most ears.

 

The problem is that the message is not getting out of these boards well enough. The content on BC's out there does not adequately emphasize your message. Once someone is here, and pig headed enough to stay, you'll get through to them eventually.

 

Would I return to my breeder and get another pup from a future litter? Probably not. Why? Becuase I have a hunch that she doesn't fall into the category of a working ranch, and her dogs are not working 9-5 out there, despite their ancestral lines.

 

Folks, I'm generally considered to be rather swift on the uptake, but it DID take me quite awhile and lots of research to GET IT.

 

I can see that it is perhaps the only solution for working ranches to be the only breeders of BCs. I can see that all non working selected progeny be neutered before being sold, but that means no 7-8 week old pups. It means that they need to be old enough to be evaluated and neutered. (What I still don't know is what 'size' of working ranch should have the right to breed BCs. At what point does a farm cease to be a hobby and become a working ranch worthy of assessing their dogs working ability for breeding purposes?)

 

Please remember that it isn't the people here that need to be told to neuter their non working working dogs. There are little ones out there who need loving homes who understand the issues. I think that every time we encounter situations like Sarahs we should support the members decision and emphasize the opportunity to direct the breeder to these boards, to educated the breeder about the issues, and to encourage that person to participate in outreach activities.

 

So WHAT ARE WE ALL DOING ABOUT OUTREACH?

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

I'd love to see Dally's pedigree. Could you please email it

 

It's on it's way

 

Meg's mom you said it better than I ever could have thanks it's exactly what I tried to type a bunch of times.

[RaisingRiver]

I agree that many posters here are kinda rude. I actually left the boards for a few weeks after first joining for that reason. But came back only because I feel that the INFORMATION given (not opinions) is right on and very useful.

 

I esp. think it's unfair to judge people because they want to buy a BC and not rescue one. I think it would be appropriate for someone to comment the following:

 

"Best of Luck with your new pup - but I know that I would rescue instead of buy."

 

That type of statement isn't mean doesn't tell YOU that you should do as I do, but it does get an opinion across without saying 'You are evil for not getting a rescue dog, how dare you!'

 

I did not get a rescue dog for the first time. And I got her from a backyard breeder. I am evil evil evil - that's what everyone on these boards said to me. Oh, they did throw in that 'well you made a mistake this time' ie. the deed was done.

 

Yes the deed was done. But instead of support in some manner with maybe a comment like 'I'd have rescued instead' (notice I not You) I was flamed for 'buying my BC pup - and from a backyard breeder no less'. The deed was done.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and opinions with validation often sway minds. But maybe just maybe folks on this board should look at how they present their opinions. Not everyone will be as tough as me to stick it out on this board - and its those folks who might need us most.

 

I think it's esp rude to tear down a seasoned BC owner (ie. Sarah SincereArtisan) in the manner that was presented on the other topic. Could have been handled MUCH MUCH better.

 

But... maybe that's why we are all DOG people.

[Crashless]

When I joined this forum, I told myself to stay out of this debate, because honestly, I know relatively little about it. But I thought it worth mentioning, from a person outside the 'BC working world', that it's exceedingly difficult to a layperson to understand the stuggle that is going on within this breed without finding this site first.

 

Before we got Sadie, we did a LOT of research. Lots of books, web searches etc. but only AFTER we got Sadie, did we realize we accidentally did a fairly good job of picking a litter to choose from.

 

The AKC is a widely popular organization for most dogs - nearly everyone in the country has heard of them, and it commands a certain cache. Unless a potential puppy seeker happens to come by page 10 of their google search, they're probably not going to understand the difference until they find this board looking for help.

 

I'm not sure I have a solution for the problem, but I hope that in 10-15 years, when I look back on Sadie's life, it will be a lot easier to find a true honest BC breeder that only breeds dogs for their working ability. Because as it is now, we got lucky, and I feel a lot of people aren't as fortunate.

[Caroline]

I think Sarah's and Sheryl's situation are different. I don't know that the breeders are equivalent. Yes both of you go with your gut feeling. Don't try to tell others it is "right" for the breed, though.

Caroline

[juliepoudrier]

Hmmmm...generally isn't what's posted on a public forum considered the poster's OPINION, unless some factual data are also presented to back up a particular statement?

 

Like I said earlier in this thread, I don't really care whether a person gets a dog from rescue of buys a pup from a well-thought-out breeding, and I think most people feel the same way. I find it amazing that people constantly take a comment like "you shouldn't buy from a BYB" in relation to a post they might have made about doing just that and then twist it into "You're an idiot and your dog isn't worth the powder to blow it to h***." It means that people take other people's opinions personally and in their minds turn those opinions into personal attacks against themselves and their dogs, when that's not the case at all, nor the intention of most of the posters here.

 

I just find it odd that people who come to this forum and presumably have read the welcome post and so are forewarned as the culture of this board, then feel that they should be considered that special exception whom no one should take issue with.

 

Maybe it's just a matter of perception. I don't think anyone "attacked" Sarah. The same people who have stated their opinions numerous times here simply stated those same opinions AGAIN. Sarah has been on these boards long enough to know that if she solicited opinions she was going to hear from people who weren't going to be supportive of the breeding she described. That's called being consistent in one's beliefs (as I've stated before in this thread).

 

Meg's Mum mentioned that the message wasn't getting out of these boards enough. I ask you, if we can't get the message through to people ON these boards--people who are here because they supposedly share the philosophy of this forum as stated in the welcome message and who at least must care for the breed at least somewhat--how on earth are we going to get the message out to the masses???? If newcomers are so easily offended by honest straightforward opinions and see rudeness in every post that disagrees with their behavior or philosophies, how can we possibly get the word out to anyone else? How is telling someone like Sarah that it's okay to buy a puppy that was bred for the wrong reasons because she's just one person and so her actions aren't that important in the grand scheme of things okay, when puppymills and BYBs exist EXACTLY because of that very individual attitude? I think if you look who posts what you will see that folks have a consistent message. New members come on and are offended by the supposed rudeness here. I don't get it. And for the record, a statement against BYBs and the dogs they produce is never a slam against the individual dogs so adopted (who had no choice in the matter). And it's really not a slam against the person, but rather the mindset that thinks it's okay to buy a dog from a BYB (for example).

 

Anyway, I don't understand how people can expect that they should be patted on the back and told "it's okay what you did" when most of us believe it's not okay. That's not a rejection of the person or the dog--it's a rejection of the mindset that says it's okay for one person to do it because individual actions aren't that important in the grand scheme of things.

 

J.

[RaisingRiver]

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

 

And I don't think 90% of the new people that come here to post read the 'Read this First'. That's like asking people to read the directions on things they buy... most people don't, they just start fiddling w/ it first.

 

There's also no other place to talk about BCs.

[nancy]

Well, you could try Working Stock Dogs. But don't expect kinder and gentler about breeding.

 

BTW, the fact that people don't read the READ THIS FIRST info does not excuse their being tetchy. I wrote instruction manuals. We had no sympathy for people who had problems because they decided that they knew better and didn't need our instructions.

 

Fools will be fools. But I needn't suffer them lightly.

 

I guess that I have been willing to go off for a while with my tail between my legs - or stand up and fight for what I think is right - here. Neither my parent (nor grandparents) nor my teachers ever let me get away with the rationale that "I felt like it" or "I wanted to". A little rigor is good for the soul.

[juliepoudrier]

There's also BC-L. But unfortunately while that list doesn't have tons of working folk on it, it does have lots of passionate rescue folk, so you still may not like the tone of some of the discussions.

 

I agree with Nancy. If you can't be bothered to figure out what the culture of a particular group of people is before joining in their discussions, then you have no one to blame but yourself when you find that culture and the discussions not quite to your liking. I mean if you join a discussion of old-order Amish and then state that it's silly to shun electricity, do you really have the right to get mad at them when they look at you as if you've just grown a second head?

 

Please tell me a nicer way to say BYBs are bad. Or puppymills are bad. By all means tell me how to help people to understand (in a nice way) that people who support either by buying from them are misguided. Frankly, I think it's impossible. Even if I were to say to a poster something like, "Gee, you probably made a mistake, but I'm sure you didn't know any better," which certainly is pretty innocuous, I guarantee you someone would take offense. Heck, what if someone says border collies should be bred for working ability only? What's wrong with that statement? Pretty low on the rude meter, really. But I've lost count of the number of people who take such a statement as a personal put down to them and their dogs--and, sorry, but that's a reflection only on the person who's feeling insulted, not on the person who made the original statement.

 

I think Joan hit the nail squarely on the head. People get pissed when they come seeking validation for their choices and then don't get the responses or answers they wanted to hear. Again, that's not a reflection on the people doing the answering, but rather on the person taking offense.

 

J.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

special thanks to katelynn she's hosting dals pedigree for me since I worked hard to do it.

 

http://katelynnsworkers.tripod.com/id4.html

 

I think it's being discussed in Sarah's thread but, I still dont get it how much work is enough for people here to justify breeding? To avoid being branded a BYB?

 

All except one of Dals littermates are learning to work and that guy is a well loved pet.

 

Maybe it's a milk thing I know someone here said the cows wait in line to be milked so I guess it's so much fun they stand in an orderly line for 5 hours waiting 3 times a day.

 

Or is the predjudice that they shouldn't herd anything except things that go BAA?

 

I still say the bottom line is that although I dont expect you to love me things can be said in a much nicer fashion at times.

[RaisingRiver]

Opinion and judgement are two different things.

 

One should not feel attacked. And not everyone has the same perspective of what's 'best' for the breed.

 

I think everyone should feel free to state their opinion. We come here to get others opinions and knowledge.

 

But judging someone for choices they make or 'want' to make? That's different then trying to sway them with arguement.

 

And yes, I know about instructions, I'm a technical writer according to my BA degree. But I bet most ppl don't read them so freak out when they come here. I did read them.

[Miztiki]

Sheryl, maybe I can help answer your question.

 

I still dont get it how much work is enough for people here to justify breeding? To avoid being branded a BYB?

I'm usually pretty quick on the uptake myself, but it took me a while also to grasp the answer to this question. I'm still learning too.

 

Border Collies are unique among all herding dogs. They have the famous BC "eye" and crouch, unlike the upright, loose-eyed style of other herding dogs. They are unique in this aspect.

 

Just about any BC can have the eye and crouch, and just about any remotely well bred BC can find their balance point and fetch sheep to you. That's no great feat. That means the dog has herding *ability*.

 

Whether or not the dog has what it takes to be a true working dog on a variety of stock and in a variety of situations can only be determined after working with the dog for a few years.

 

Those people who work their dogs to a high level and find that the dog has *natural* working characteristics that would maintain or improve the gene pool are the ones that are bred. Or that's how it would work in a perfect world anyway.

 

There's a whole lot to working stock that I'm anxious to learn about. I only have a general concept of what all is involved. A dog needs to know how much pressure to put on a stubborn bull, and how much pressure to put on a newborn lamb. It needs to know how much pressure to put on a sheep who is on the edge of a cliff. Too much and the sheep will jump to its death.

 

It needs to be willing to work with its handler, but it also needs to be capable of working without constant instructions.

 

These are all heritable traits, passed down from the parents to the puppies. Some can be trained to do these things but that's robot work, and apparently the dog needs constant input from the handler to do the job. When a good BC is trained it's really about bringing out what's already there and guiding the dog, as opposed to training behaviors through repetition like obedience or agility.

 

Ideally, a dog shouldn't be bred until it has shown that it possesses (sp) these characteristics, and that can only be discovered after a few years or more of training.

 

Does that help answer your question?

 

There are two videos I've bought now, one is called Starting your Border Collie on Cattle, Sheep, or Ducks and the other is called The Year of the Working Sheepdog . Both have been instrumental in opening my eyes to what a Border Collie is all about and I HIGHLY recommend them. It's simply amazing what a BC can do, even a young one their first time on stock. Absolutely amazing.

 

You can get both videos from www.bordercollies.com. Just click on the video link and you'll see them on page two.

[Miztiki]

They should also consider the dog's health and temperament, ages, etc, when breeding, along with concern for where the pups go, so on and so forth.

[RaisingRiver]

Is there consideration between BC's that work stock 'for real' as in an actual working farm and those BC's that 'work in trials' by day and in town by night.

 

Is it only the 'for real' BCs that should be bred?

 

 

If I ever decided to get sheep, it would be FOR my BC, not because I want to raise sheep for any sort of living... that would make me a 'work in trials' even though I live in the country.

[Miztiki]

Honestly, I'm not sure. There does seem to be a little tension (for lack of a better word) between those who work their dogs for real, and those who only trial. I'm not versed in that argument though.

 

I would THINK that if a dog is able to work stock in a wide variety of situations, do it long and do it well, that it really wouldn't matter if it was a full-time working dog or high level trialing dog.

 

But I'm not sure. That might be a can of worms too and if it is, I apologize. I'm not trying to open any cans, just trying to answer the question.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

But I'm not sure. That might be a can of worms too and if it is, I apologize. I'm not trying to open any cans, just trying to answer the question.

 

Dont worry I'm trying to open it. I want to hear honest answers not just the same thing spit out over and over. BTW I guess if I dont put Puppy in my title I dont get Gary harping at me.

 

He will be pleased to know that GH has raised their adoption age for young dogs to minimum child age of 14 years old to adopt.

[Dal & Mad's Mom]

Julie you said you dont make inflammatory statement or say anything to put down dal but, I point you to this thread

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...c;f=10;t=000465

[juliepoudrier]

Sheryl,

Miz has some good comments. As for trial vs. farm work, I suppose I am a firm believer in the value of real farm work for creating a more all-around dog and in trials for helping to prove the versatility of an individual dog. A dog who lives in the city and only trials (although I don't think that's entirely possible as the dog has to be getting training somewhere, even if it doesn't live on a farm) wouldn't be automatically eliminated from the gene pool either. The value of trials is that they gather a bunch of dogs in one location, which makes it easy to compare them, and it also showcases dogs who are capable of going to strange places and working livestock they have not seen before (and who haven't seen the particular dog either)--a dog that is capable of adjusting to new stock and new terrain and do it well. A dog who does consistently well in this sort of venue has characteristics that we wouldn't want to be lost.

 

Conversely there are great farm dogs out there that never leave the farm. But, I think you'd need to judge them with a bit more critical eye because a dog will look better on its home farm with livestock it knows and who are familiar with it and the daily routine. That's why ROM (register on merit) programs *require* the candidate dog to be evaluated in locations and on stock not "their own."

 

Rightfully, an experienced stock and dog person who has consistently brought dogs up to the highest working level can make an evaluation of a working dog much more quickly than someone like me, who hasn't been doing it for years and years. That's why you hear folks make comments like "if Tommy Wilson thought that unproven bitch was worth breeding...." because we all recognize that he is one of those special people who *can* judge a young dog quickly and properly.

 

So for a dog who brings the cattle to the milking shed twice a day, you would have to consider that the cattle's routine is to go to the shed twice a day and that they may well do that even if no dog were present. In such a case, I would personally want to see how that dog handled, say, the mommas and calves, or how it managed to separate the bull from the herd, things like that, which aren't part of the normal daily routine. If the dog just follows the cattle to the barn every day, these extra tasks will show that pretty quickly. FWIW, one of my Twist's littermates does just that job (brings cattle in for milking) every day.

 

So it's really not about *how much* work so much as it's about the quality of the work that's done. Even people with huge flocks don't need to work them for hours every day (unless perhaps you're shepherding on the open range or up in the mountains). But when I do need my dog, I expect her to do it right and with minimum stress to the stock. This spring was my dog's first lambing. I was watching closely to see how she handled protective mamas and clueless lambs--and that's something you won't know about a dog unless the dog actually does the work (real farm work). But the dog doesn't have to go through thousands of lambings before you can make decisions on the dog and its utility for that sort of work.

 

Oh, and I ought to add that most people also look at dogs from similar breedings (or maybe even the same cross but an earlier litter) to get a better overall picture of what they're seeing in a particular individual. So, staying with my example, I may look at Twist's sister and wonder about a few things since she never leaves the farm and does the same task day in and day out, but if I look at other littermates and other dogs that are similarly bred, I would get a better idea of what I *might* expect from a cross of that particular dog, even if I haven't seen her at trials (I say might because of course there are no guarantees, and ideally I would want to see the dog work in situations that aren't routine).

 

So I don't know if I've muddied the waters for you any more, but this is my opinion on how much work and what type of work is needed to determine breedability, as well as why some folks might be able to make breeding decisions earlier rather than later (e.g., Tommy Wilson).

 

Hope that helps.

 

J.