Jodi Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. So, I need some help in doing that. What do you all think of people making a living off dogs and dogs alone? Not training them on stock and selling them for a *fair* amount of money. Not doing clinics. Not offering lessons. Just doing all the "proper" health tests on the adults, possibly putting a few of them on sheep for a bit, training others up to a little more than started, having a fancy website, and then selling puppies for a ridiculous amount of money ... all year long ... litter after litter ... and having that be your only income. Let's even assume all the puppies are healthy. Let's assume that most of them have acceptable temperaments. And let's further assume a decent number of the pups work. Responsible breeder or glorified puppymill? Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 I believe that anyone who breeds and sells a large number of pups year after year is a puppy mill. Not all puppy mills are the same--some are the horror stories we all read about; others raise pups under wonderful conditions. But since my definition of puppy mill includes all high-volume breeders, good or bad, I personally would consider the situation you describe as a mill. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Puppy mill. Puppies should never be a *means of income*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Extremely high volume alone makes me say puppy mill. To not even be concerned with maintaining/improving the breed by working them to a standard and maybe trialing from time to time lowers them further into the puppy mill category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisingRiver Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 I'd consider that puppymill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 "Puppies should never be a *means of income*." Why on earth not? Someone who breeds excellent border collies deserves the incentive provided by a return on investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 I think most people here will agree that breeding border collies is not about the money. If the people are doing their job correctly, the costs will far outweigh any income they get from selling the puppies. There is much vetting to be done, health checks on the parents, accomodations, food, etc. But far beyond that, the only reason a border collie should be bred is to better the breed - because the parents are what makes a border collie, have proven themselves *at herding*. It is not about the money. If someone is thinking to themselves "Hey I can make some cash off puppies" it is the wrong reason. Others who know more can correct me if they wish, but I feel pretty strongly about this, myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 You are making intention or possibly motive more important than facts. According to your belief, someone who breeds two wonderful working border collies and it's a great cross that produces great pups is at fault for doing so if an intention is to profit thereby. Worse than that, you're faulting thrifty-minded livestock producers who make some pocket money with a good litter or two every year. You're also faulting great breeders whose excellence allows them the opportunity to make some money from dogs. I have never even approached breaking even on a litter. That isn't a good thing. It's a stupid thing. To attempt to place a moral limitation on border collie breeding to the wealthy, the dilettantes, the hobbyists, etc., is a mistake. What's more, I think you're over-estimating costs based on an urban outlook. Costs for vaccines are reasonable if given at home (rabies because of liability issues is a different matter). Many people with livestock have microscopes for doing fecals. Not every dog that is bred needs Penn-Hip or OFA tests. Another thing: bettering the breed. I know no one who thinks in those terms and who breeds good to great border collies. I have never heard anyone whom I respect in terms of border collie breeding and whose dogs I respect use those terms. If I heard someone whose dogs I respect do so, I would be shocked. There may be a few creditable people who with a straight face say things like, "I'm breeding A-dog and C-bitch to better the breed. That's the only reason to do it." I've never heard the patter from someone I admire, only from fair to middling breeders who tend to produce more puppies of that quality than they do good ones and too many puppies for my taste, at that. Bettering the breed is a kind of conclusion reached after observation or research, I guess. I respect certain breeders because they produce good border collies. As a result of that, it is possible to conclude those dogs improve the breed. Quite a few people think that the best pups of a cross will come from the first litter, are always looking for the next cross, and tend not to repeat a cross. This, along with first crosses even when a repeat is a possibility, means that being certain of bettering the breed is almost never a reasonable and cautious statement. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weeza Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Penny....you just gave me a whole new spin on things. Thank you for that great post. What you said makes a lot of sense to me, in regards to these types of dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 I can't edit anymore so I better point out that in my previous post, I am only referring to people who breed for livestock work. No one else should be breeding border collies at all. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 If you are breeding a large enough volume of puppies to LIVE OFF THE PROCEEDS as was the original question ("living off the dogs and the dogs alone" as in, the sale of puppies), it is statistically impossible, if not unlikely, that you are breeding "superior" dogs. There is no reason a responsible breeder can't pocket some cash after a litter. But there is no way a responsible breeder can simulataneously produce enough puppies to live off. The two concepts are not synonymous, period. When an individual breeds enough puppies that they can live off the proceeds, they are a puppy mill. This has statistically been proven time and time again. I do have some idea how much it costs to raise a litter, even inexpensively, and how much the pups can sell for. Mathematically speaking, to make a living off it you would have to mass produce puppies. Hence the correct terminology of puppy mill. Might that not fall under the category of "too many puppies for your taste" ...? RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Just doing all the "proper" health tests on the adults, possibly putting a few of them on sheep for a bit, training others up to a little more than started, having a fancy website, and then selling puppies for a ridiculous amount of money ... all year long ... litter after litter ... and having that be your only income. Let's even assume all the puppies are healthy. Let's assume that most of them have acceptable temperaments. And let's further assume a decent number of the pups work. Responsible breeder or glorified puppymill?- Jodi To myself- this is a little like the inbreeding vs. linebreeding question. Its line-breeding if the results are good, its inbreeding if the results are cross-eyed twits. Personally.. I don't think its possible to "make a living" in this manner- at least not if you meant this part "training others up to a little more than started". A little more than started is a great deal of time and effort- pays a lot less than a minimum wage job. However, hypothetically, if the puppies/started dogs produced were outstanding specimens of the breed, I would love if a breeder/trainer could make a living at it. I just find it highly doubtful they could without also taking in dogs for training, doing lessons, clinics, etc. Maybe its my area- but Border Collies are not that hot of an item here. I can't imagine being able to sell one litter a year locally to the right sort of folks. From what I've seen- many non-working Border Collie ads run a long, long time before all the pups are sold. One guy bragged to me that his dogs (non-working bred) were in "high demand" all around the nation, yet I saw his ad run well over a week and ran into pictures of his pups at more than one local feed store as well . I guess my point is- if this bozo can make a dime on crappy bred dogs (his proof of "working ability" was pictures of his dog barking at Watusi bulls), I'd love to see a good breeder make a living at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Yes, rather likely living off the sale of pups alone would fall under that. I didn't say it wouldn't. If the example is more than a hypothetical then send me a link. If someone is bothering to train some and then lives off the puppy sales without other income from a town job, then I am surprised. In fact, I thought the example was strictly a hypothetical. I was responding to Lunar who is on the right track with some fine tuning. I think the original post poses an unlikely but not inconceivable situation. I would never buy a dog from such a person, especially if a website has a heading like "Introducing the breed," which when clicked on yields a selection of clickable border collie colors. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 There IS a breeder who breeds BCs for a living and has no other source of income. This breeder sells the pups for $800 to $1000 each. The kennel produces 10 to 15 litters per year. You do the math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Penny - I'm not saying it's bad to make some money off a litter, if it's a good litter. I'm saying it shouldn't be the main reason for breeding - or even really come into the decision. It's a side benefit. And yes, I'm placing a lot of emphasis on motive and intention. As for bettering the breed - perhaps I stated it wrong. But the point of the breeding should be working ability - *good* border collies. (As for what constitutes a good border collie, don't ask me - I don't do herding!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 I dont think you could ever make any money without being large scale. IE puppy mill. My mom tried to raise Parrots she put together a few great pairs but, the bottom line was the overhead and the care not to mention your loss far outweighed any amt you charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 "I'm saying it shouldn't be the main reason for breeding - or even really come into the decision. It's a side benefit. And yes, I'm placing a lot of emphasis on motive and intention." And I am telling you that I know flesh and blood people who would not be breeding border collies if money were not involved and who should be breeding border collies because they produce good border collies. The person selling 100 $800 to $1000 border collie puppies a year...I still have not been told who it is. I am curious though and not just about the seller. Who is buying the puppies? Those are fancy prices. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 The person selling 100 $800 to $1000 border collie puppies a year...I still have not been told who it is. I am curious though and not just about the seller. Who is buying the puppies? Those are fancy prices I know who you are talking about and I do have a friend (Older heavy bc experience who well researched what she wanted) who is getting a pup out of a certain female. Would I no, I dont want anyone to mail order me a dog that is a personal choice. Mom's dog is pure her breeding but, that is a whole nother story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Originally posted by PennyT:And I am telling you that I know flesh and blood people who would not be breeding border collies if money were not involved and who should be breeding border collies because they produce good border collies. The person selling 100 $800 to $1000 border collie puppies a year...I still have not been told who it is. I am curious though and not just about the seller. Who is buying the puppies? Those are fancy prices. Penny I think it's one thing for money to be "involved" but it's another to make a living solely on the sale of dogs. To do so, I would think one has to produce too many puppies to be quality...or live very very thriftly. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 I haven't seen any decent working bred pups at those prices ($800-1000). We recently paid much less than that for pups sired by a multiple big trials winner, including the Nationals and Meeker. Those prices are more like "older pup with potential" prices in the working world. Those are "dog fancy" prices- what people pay for pets and show dogs. So if that is what the breeder is producing, then I couldn't see supporting them as a breeder. But if their track record was a high percentage of past litters being competitive in Open- it would be a different thing- but again I find it highly unlikely without supplementing income with lessons, clinics and training. In the original post, mention was made of training dogs to over started. That suggests an involvement in working dogs that is respectable- so if that is not the case with the (hypothetical?) breeder in question, perhaps it should be clarified/defined on what we mean by started. My own definition of started is a dog that is doing at least 100-200 yard outrun, knows its sides and is started driving, not a dog that has just been to sheep once or twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prosperia Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 Hmmm, There are breeders who produce a large number of litters in a year, but still arent making much money off the pups. Certainly not enough to make a living off of. Or so I've been told. The dogs are great, but they breed so many. Whats the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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