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New here :) + Difficulty getting into the breed


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After watching your video, I am in love with your little pap. She would make a fantastic agility prospect.

 

Did you see the phenomenal little papillon that just won the small dog agility at the Purina Incredible Dog Challenge finals? That would be Primo, who belongs to Roger Coor (my favorite agility judge of all time). He is one really amazing papillon -- pretty much the dog that sealed the deal in making me decide I must have one some day. :D

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My agility trainer runs papillons. Her's a bit crazy IMO but adorable and great at agility. I would do whatever you can to get your girl into agility. Make it work, you won't regret it! Its a lot of fun and your girl looks like she'd really enjoy it.

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My friend has a rescue Pap that she runs in agility. After her other dogs got older and were close to/or retired from agility, she thought she'd downsize to a Pap. Her thought was that she, herself, was getting older and so she should get a smaller dog that she could better keep up with in her older age. Boy, was she wrong! LOL! That little Pap can run circles around most border collies. :lol:

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You do understand, of course, that by the time the pup is old enough to have OFA on hips and elbows you will have already put a whole lot of effort into raising it and at least doing basic training? So you may not be saving yourself anything in that regard.

 

Good luck finding the perfect pup. I hope you're not disappointed. Oh, and by the way, I'm a scientist too (so was *my* dad), as are a number of folks on this forum. Your blanket statements make it clear to me that you don't quite understand the art of breeding healthy animals at the worst and that you have unrealistic expectations at the best.

 

J.

 

I can do prelim OFAs. An agility friend of my just did prelim OFAs on her 6 month old because she felt that her puppy was seemingly uncomfortable when she manipulated her legs a certain way that shouldn't be painful for the dog. Her pup came back with an OFA rating of mildly dysplastic :( So she won't be doing agility with her pup since it will definitely aggravate the condition. Breeder offered to take the pup back but she's bonded to the pup so that's not an option so breeder offered her another pup from the next litter out of different parents. Both parents were OFA good and now at the breeder's request all puppies in that litter have been OFA'd, so far she just ended up with the short straw, no one else's pup had dysplasia.

 

I'm not going to do agility training before at least 18 months old. All I will do is basic obedience and foundation work, no jumps, no tight turns. Probably get the dog into a few obedience classes for socialization and getting used to the environment and setting up foundation work.

 

I'm not a scientist (I know squat about science) but I do not understand how having expectations such as getting a puppy that's a male is unrealistic. Although you're probably right in that might have an unrealistic image of what I want the puppy to be. *shrug* dogs never turn out the way we expect...but the basic requirements such as sex still stands even if the dog doesn't turn out the way I want.

 

Nia was supposed to be a male, 8-10 lbs (a little bigger), a different color (usually the breeder asks what color you want in Papillons), better social skills and not so so so sensitive but look what I ended up with lol. I wouldn't trade her for the world though.

 

 

Man, you're not kidding! That dog would make a fantastic agility and/or flyball dog.

 

I think so too and I really hope I can get her into something in the near future! There aren't that many agility centers near where I live. There one that's the closest is absolutely terrifying. The trainer uses only choke collars, spray bottles, metal cans with rocks inside and collar pops. I think if the trainer collar popped Nia, she would just wither up and die. She's so soft that any kind of physical correction or even people yelling angrily at her shuts her down and makes her sit there shaking :( I do have a few centers that bit further that I love though so it may just work out sometime.

 

Edit: I didn't see the Purina Incredible Dog Challenge but I just watched it now :P Love that little dog! I believe I know which breeder that pup is out of and all her dogs have been doing amazingly in the agility field! I also think it's awesome that she breeds dogs that do agility and sports and not only the show ring because a few Pap people and I have been discussing the dogs that have been bred recently and some of them are losing their energy and drive. Although they don't really have a purpose, they are supposed to be high energy, intelligent dogs that have good drive and can do well in dog sports so I love seeing breeders that do more than walk their dogs around a ring all day. Conformation is fine for Papillons but it would be extra nice if their dogs can be proven to do more than that. There are honestly not very many breeders at all (only a handful, probably less than 15) that I know of that test their dogs in another venue other than just conformation. (sorry I got a little sidetracked about Papillons :P).

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Good luck finding the perfect pup. I hope you're not disappointed. Oh, and by the way, I'm a scientist too (so was *my* dad), as are a number of folks on this forum. Your blanket statements make it clear to me that you don't quite understand the art of breeding healthy animals at the worst and that you have unrealistic expectations at the best.

 

J.

Julie, FWIW, I think it was Serena, not CMSGYAY, that brought up the scientist dad. Although IMO both posters may have unrealistic expectations for breeding and what it can guarantee you. This from another scientist who also winced at the description of "recessive problem genes" that are "several generations back".

 

Serena, every living creature on this planet carries "recessive problem genes", including you. Absolutely very single one. It is not a question as to whether they are there or not. The question is much more complex - is there evidence the mate's line also carries that same gene, how is the gene expressed, and other factors that get very complex. Many (probably most) health problems are also not this deterministic, and are the result of many many genes all interacting together (and with the environment the animal develops in). Also, every gene every living creature has is from "several generations back" unless there has been a spontaneous mutation. A "long ago" gene can not have an effect on an organism living today...becuase the genes that affect THAT animal ARE the current genes that they have today. All of which (again excepting the very rare mutation) were inherited. I get that you were trying to describe carriers of recessive genes with normal phenotypes, but your description and conclusions you drew from that are not exactly accurate (i.e., should never breed that line again).

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I think so too and I really hope I can get her into something in the near future! There aren't that many agility centers near where I live. There one that's the closest is absolutely terrifying. The trainer uses only choke collars, spray bottles, metal cans with rocks inside and collar pops. I think if the trainer collar popped Nia, she would just wither up and die. She's so soft that any kind of physical correction or even people yelling angrily at her shuts her down and makes her sit there shaking :( I do have a few centers that bit further that I love though so it may just work out sometime.

 

You are right to stay away from that "training center". Is that trainer teaching agility classes??

 

I think that when agility first started in this country, many people used a lot of obedience techniques to train the skills needed for agility. Not that these techniques were mean or abusive, but there was a lot of control involved. Nowadays, many people are, or are transitioning to, training agility skills by using fun games where the dog doesn't really know that it is being 'trained'. After all, agility is supposed to be fun. It is not hard to tell an agility dog that loves to do agility vs. one that is doing it because 'mommy/daddy is telling me what to do and I don't want to make a mistake'.

 

So look for an instructor that teaches with fun games. Yes, there are some control skills you need (like a start line stay), but most of the other skills can be taught in a fun, creative manner. I hope you get a chance to play agility with Nia.

 

Jovi

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You are right to stay away from that "training center". Is that trainer teaching agility classes??

 

Yup, he teaches agility and basic obedience and proper socialization among other things. A neighbor of mine took his lab there once for obedience and the trainer collar popped the dog so hard he was coughing for a good 10 min! Needless to say my neighbor definitely isn't going back there!

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Julie, FWIW, I think it was Serena, not CMSGYAY, that brought up the scientist dad. Although IMO both posters may have unrealistic expectations for breeding and what it can guarantee you. This from another scientist who also winced at the description of "recessive problem genes" that are "several generations back".

Yep, my apologies to the two different posters for the mix up. I was in a hurry and didn't doublecheck things like I normally do. But my main points remain the same. Thanks for pointing out my misquoting, Ooky! I certainly didn't mean to put words in anyone's mouth.

 

J.

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I still hold my own, because when you breed with another dog from another breeder, their generations get passed on... Those crossings of generations are there each with specific generational histories and yes, things get very complex and complicated...I hold my opinions and will close the topic....We don't want the thread to become a troll-like topic.

 

I think it's more important to concentrate on enjoying Nia, and CMYGYAY efforts to ask about where to find breeders, clubs, etc. To detract by not liking or agreeing with another poster is not productive. I will exit from this specific thread permanently and hope others will just address CMYGYAY, so that it will be a very pleasant good thread. We have to keep the positives going right ;) By me exiting and refusing to visit this specific thread, we can all enjoy the correspondence here without me further distracting others in CMYGYAY's search for valued advice.

 

Fantastic dog, by the way...Nia is ABSOLUTELY DELIGHTFUL, and she is very full of life and energy! She is very beautiful too! Be sure when you do get your new puppy to post on the videos and photo thread! I'm sure that you will get a wonderful puppy eventually and that puppy will "find" you in one way or another...Enjoy the process of searching and "dreaming"...I bet you will soon be unable to wait as long as the 3 years, lol! Cheers!

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We don't want the thread to become a troll-like topic.

I don't think anything was becoming "troll-like" but just that when someone puts something forth as fact, and it may not be true (or may just be considered not quite right by another person well-versed in the topic), there isn't anything wrong with putting forth another viewpoint.

 

But, yes, you are totally right to want to keep this topic on a friendly note, even if people don't agree on certain points.

 

That Nia is one terrific little dog. She exudes "love of life"!

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I bet you will soon be unable to wait as long as the 3 years, lol! Cheers!

i

I wish I could but waiting is not an option, it's a must. I think my house will be turned upside down if I'm gone 50 hours a week and spend half of the rest of the remaining time needing to study! That would be unfair for the pup. But I have been having puppy fever for a loooong time, probably 2 years now!

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Hi cmsgyay,

 

I live in Langley, BC and know a number of reputable working breeders who would sell you a puppy. Email me privately and I will put you in contact with them so that you can develop a trusting relationship over the next few years. If you have not heard back from breeders in this area, it may be that they have been away at sheepdog trials. The National Finals just finished up last month, plus other more local trials in WA. There is a sheepdog trial in Falkland, BC this coming weekend which a lot of people will be going to. They may only breed a litter once every couple years or so you might have to wait that long anyway.

Your Pap is adorable! You will have a ton of fun with her. I have a wonderful rescue Chi who loves to chase balls too. My friends' Flyball team would love to get their hands on him as a height dog & they would love your girl too. :-) I also have 4 BCs and an ACD.

You could also consider joining the BCSDA; http://stockdog.bc.ca/ Our AGM/Awards dinner is in Cloverdale this month; Oct.15th or 22? Kristi can post the correct date.

cheers Lani

appyridr@hotmail.com

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  • 1 year later...

Serena regarding Eluane

I really don'tunderstand where in the world you are getting your information from. I represent NightshadesBorder Collies, and the junk you have posted on here is absolutely unfounded, unresearched and pretty close to slander. You have made an awful lot of assumptions that are allbased on opinion and not true. We have earnrd our high rating from puppy find. Im not sure what horrible conditions that you speak of, but the parents ofyour beloved puppy still reside here, and generally sleepon couches.

 

As far as parasites, we sentyou a puppy that iwas on a very strict deworming schedule. If youdid not keep that up, of COURSE they will get those parasites again.

Our place is in the country, It is the middle of no where so that they have room torun. its the country, when it rains, there is mud.

 

 

Bandit

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Bandit does not like to herd, therefore, we didn't force him in to an activity he didn't enjoy just to better our name. I Ewelcome anyone to contactthe ABCA about their opinion of us as a breeder. we have also had the AKC come out.andtake a look at our place, our dogs health, etc. They seemed to think we were.doing a fine job

 

, . Your dogs parents have both been PenHipped. Bandit is in the 100% percentile, Cheyenne In the 90th.They.are both CEA clear.

our websiteis 100% honest, there is nothingfalse about it. What amazes me is that you were this upset about your puppys health, but the ONLY correspondence wegot from you, was how greatyour puppy was doing and how smart she was. I sincerely apologize if your puppy had parasites. while we (like many other breeders) do everythingwe can to get rid of parasites, sometimes they are there anyway.

 

as far as papers, it takestime to get them mailed in to the ABCA, get the papers (there is ONE lady that does all of the registrations at the ABCA) and get.Them to you.

 

I am absolutely appalled and offended that you would accuse us of giving you a sub par puppy becauseofyour race.

So please stop making all of these comments about us whenyou really have NO idea what really goes on out here.

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I am not going back to reread this topic but I think I can safely say that a "high rating from Puppyfind" would not be considered any sort of endorsement at all. I also am curious about people "contacting ABCA about their opinion of us as a breeder" as ABCA does not endorse individual breeders (the President of ABCA is a moderator here). An affiliation with AKC is not something that bears any positive impact on people who support the working Border Collie. And using for breeding stock a dog that "does not like to herd" (even though the successful use of occasional, extremely well-bred non-working bitches for breeding does occur sometimes in the hands of outstanding breeders in the UK and Ireland) is contrary to the breeding philosophy of this board (see "Read This First", please).

 

Your website is full of dogs and bitches whose primary attributes seem to be their candy colors. Again, if you had read "Read This First", you would realize that your breeding program has nothing to do with the philosophy of this board, which is to breed for working ability, not color, not conformation, not to produce pet puppies. Three litters in December, and another three in January? Sounds like a high-volume puppy production line, complete with "associates" churning out more of the same.

 

Your arguments with Serena may be one thing, but you certainly haven't said anything in your two posts or show anything on your website to really indicate that you are the type of breeder that this board considers "responsible".

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Bandit, do you realize you're digging up a dead horse that was buried almost a year and half ago?

 

I don't know that Serena even posts here any more.

 

Also, even if you do keep your place clean and nice, having 6 litters of pups between December 19 and January 28 is an awful LOT of puppies. What is that, 30 or 40 puppies on the ground, all at once? I shudder to imagine how many litters you turn out in a year. But I guess those 23 bitches of yours have to earn their keep somehow.

 

 

 

Serena regarding Eluane

I really don'tunderstand where in the world you are getting your information from. I represent NightshadesBorder Collies, and the junk you have posted on here is absolutely unfounded, unresearched and pretty close to slander. You have made an awful lot of assumptions that are all based on opinion and not true. We have earnrd our high rating from puppy find. Im not sure what horrible conditions that you speak of, but the parents ofyour beloved puppy still reside here, and generally sleepon couches.

 

As far as parasites, we sentyou a puppy that iwas on a very strict deworming schedule. If you did not keep that up, of COURSE they will get those parasites again.

Our place is in the country, It is the middle of no where so that they have room torun. its the country, when it rains, there is mud.

 

 

Bandit

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Bandit, do you realize you're digging up a dead horse that was buried almost a year and half ago?

 

I don't know that Serena even posts here any more.

 

Also, even if you do keep your place clean and nice, having 6 litters of pups between December 19 and January 28 is an awful LOT of puppies. What is that, 30 or 40 puppies on the ground, all at once? I shudder to imagine how many litters you turn out in a year. But I guess those 23 bitches of yours have to earn their keep somehow.

 

How sad...I shudder to think where many of those puppies will end up.

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How sad...I shudder to think where many of those puppies will end up.

Some in loving homes, some happy with the situation and some not. Some in clueless hands, maybe some not. Some in shelters or rescues, some not. And some making even more puppies, some not.

 

I wonder just how many would truly be considered "success stories" from the dog's point of view.

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I wonder what % could actually be considered as a useful stockdog having enough talent and ability to make handling livestock easier and labor saving; along with how many people have purchased dogs that needed a good using dog or had the dream of haing a talented stockdog without realizing that their chances were lessened compared to if they had purchased a pup from someone focused on working ability.

 

More often then not that is were we see the most anger, from folks that ended up not getting what they thought they were when they purchased their pups. So many trust the breeders, seems to be a problem across the dog breeding industry.

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Another issue with breeders like this (color breeders, backyard breeders, AKC breeders, and others not breeding for working ability) is that every pup they produce and place in a home that wants a working dog (whether for a small or hobby flock or herd, or a large ranch flock or herd), takes the place that a well-bred pup or dog could fill, and do a useful job in filling it.

 

There are only just so many places for pups/dogs to go, and it's a shame when a poorly-bred one occupies the spot that a well-bred one could occupy usefully. There is so much that is wrong with poor breeding practices and marketing of poorly-bred pups and dogs.

 

I think I'm babbling but maybe you get the idea.

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I realize this is a different direction but how did they end up with so many small border collies(18" or smaller)? And how can he predicted the size of the offspring?

 

Is there lines that are known for smaller dogs? Lol I can't imagine being so lucky in my choice.

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